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Was it right of Daredevil to kill Bullseye?
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Was it right of Daredevil to kill Bullseye? Reply with quote

This happened over a year, but I think this does merit some more exploring. Was it right of Daredevil to kill Bullseye? That was supposed to be the moment in Shadowland when the audience was supposed to think there was something wrong with DD, but kinda fell flat in that regard.

On the hand, you can argue that its wrong for Matt to play judge, jury and executioner and kill someone without benefit of a trial.

On the other hand, Bullseye is a psychopathic monster with no redeeming values. Bullseye has killed hundreds of people, tormented Matt for years, tried to ruin his life and the justice system seemed unable to stop him. Even someone like Matt would have a breaking point. Bullseye is such a rotten guy, its easy to cheer DD's decision to kill him. Its the reason why Punisher works as a character, he fights such evil scumbags, that you end up cheering for him, despite the fact what he is doing is illegal and not completely ethical.

If Daredevil killed someone pathetic like Stilt-Man or tragic like Gladiator, he would come off as a bully or a fascist. But killing a monster like Bullseye comes off as a far more gray decision.
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RDTOH
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Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do enjoy the fact that Bullseye is dead, because it allows Daredevil to fight some other villains for awhile. I'm sure Bullseye will be back at some point, but this is a nice respite. If Bullseye was going to be killed off, I just wished it happened during a more epic battle and a better story.
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Daredevil24
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Joined: 06 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A man can only take so much,i'm glad he stepped up,unlike a certain hero from Gotham.
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theunrealstudios
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay lol this will be long because "we" need to finally move past Shadowland and Bullseye so bare with me: first lets agree that Daredevil has killed before in the past alright? He's not a murderer but one COULD say that he has earned the title of "killer" (ref: Born Again, MWF, #350, etc).

That being said it's one of those moves that is possible to see from Matt but not very common. He's killed in self defense, he's killed when people were being massacred but the idea of murder in his situation? Let's see it from a personal context:

Your a man who has been a community activist for years and has made the neighborhood a better place. People like you and respect you compared to a guy who dresses up like an creepy arachnid. But along comes a guy who kills people for money and for fun. A man who YOU have saved from dying by a train and a tumor (who has killed a person you loved) is alive because you were the better man and played hero and it was the right thing to do....fine but this is on you your told years ago, your responsible and accountable the police officer says. You later drop him and he shattered his spine so he couldn't hurt anyone else... he then comes back and kills the love of your life...you suffer at first but you'll live with the pain eventually and move on. He returns after he finds out who you are in private and was in the process to kill your girlfriend in your own bed; not your doorstep, not a church but your own...bed. Although he failed he to your face tells you that he will personally go try again to kill your helpless vision handicapped (who now is your) wife (who is insane because you failed to protect her from the same kind of monster btw) and then kill your coworkers which includes your best and relatively only friend (who you've experienced the reality of him assumed dead before which nearly made you crazy in grief). This comes from the man who is known that if he wants someone dead it's within his reach and has just personally killed 107 men, women and children to which YOU failed to protect. YOU! The one who VOWED a guarantee for the safety of their neighborhood after calling yourself "king".... to which you are standing on their tomb site as this all goes down. You remember the feeling of hyper senses over a hundred heart beats flat-lining, heard the crushing sounds of concrete and bricks on bones and tissue, smelling the bloodstains and tears of dozens of people and hearing the final gasps of troubled, punctured lung breathing from the ones unfortunate enough to not die instantly. In your own special way this is watching them die next to you, all of them. You broke your promise and the people that walked through your streets everyday because you failed to act payed the price at having the potential joys of life robbed from them. "Evil has truly triumphed when good men stand by and do nothing" is what you hear when you hang your head in shame.

DC is the land of moral gods that you aspire to be in your everyday life as they are inhuman leaders. Marvel is the place where you meet above average people who teach you the value to fight the evil within yourself and the evil in the world without becoming a monster. One is what you'd like to be, one is what you are more likely to become. DC has the luxury of being unrealistic, Marvel does not have this.

Matt is no Punisher, he is no batman mind you but he is not a murderer. I still believe that you can redeem yourself after doing something bad even if it was a difficult grey decision and Waid is a testament to that thinking. Out of all the marvel characters who deserve a second chance and cannot be judged by ANYONE it's Matt Murdock. i DARE any character in comics to compare personal tragedies and look down on him in scorn. Why is this important? What's the point? it justifies the validity of this action. Did Bullseye deserve to die? yes. Should it have been legal and humane way by a group of his peers years ago? Yes. But if anyone deserved to kill Bullseye it was Matt as he's stolen the most from the guy. Comparison: Batman doesn't have the place to kill the Joker (he's close but Jason Todd has that slot next to anyone) but Matt Murdock has every reason to and so he killed him. He is trying however to be a better person since because he doesn't forgive himself for breaking his ethics meaning he still can be saved as a human being and his life is not destroyed. Case closed in my opinion, sorry this took up space but i like to write and we need closure. Let's see some other villains for a change! Razz
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not certain I can bring much to this discussion. I have read Shadowland once and have no desire to ever read it again. It was incredibly cheap to have a significant nemesis killled off by a possessed Daredevil. It wasn't even Matt to begin with. It wasn't a very fun reading experience for me. Much like the Joker is to Batman, Bullseye is the same to Daredevil. In strictly comicbook terms, this not a villian you have killed off from your books. Oh well. I await the cheese they cook up for his resurrection.
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theunrealstudios
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually the beast took him over after because he killed; that's why he had the little breakdown while tearing his mask off inside. Anything that followed was Matt possessed apparently which is just BS writing to excuse yourself from following the past 10 years of stories. And your absolutely right, it was a lame move killing Bullseye off like this. DD stories aren't exactly praised for their great villains so you don't kill off the good (yet overdone) ones. but i at least like that it was Matt who did it and with a sai; it's almost perfect as a nod to miller but it should have been in a better arc. i think Waid and Wacker don't want to simply bring him back any time soon the same way they don't want to touch Fisk or ninjas as it's become repetitive. Wacker had enough respect not to bring back Karen Page when he could and i trust that Matt was crazy enough to do it.
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Clayton Blind Love
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, "possessed" was too strong of a word to use. However, the influence of this Beast was seeded within Matt long before that confrontation with Bullseye. There is no way Matt decided to wear that silly costume of his own freewill. Wink
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theunrealstudios
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol okay influenced i can agree with mate. idk, i thought it was the perfect reflection of where he was at in his mind. if hells kitchen was afraid of a guy dressing up in red beating the crap out of them a guy dressed in black with ninjas seems alot more scary. Was it random as hell to see him like that? yes, i expected it presented as a gift in front of people or something.
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Clayton, that's not the case. A major plot point of Diggle's arc was that DD decided to kill Bullseye of his own free will, and that was the act that allowed him to become vulnerable to the possession by the Beast... it has also been declared (via captioned thoughts) by Matt himself in the epilogue of shadowland.

That said, overlord brings an interesting point. The fact that it was a fiend like bullseye, who deserved it more than almost anybody else in the Marvel Universe, to be killed as the turning point of matt's corruption was very anticlimatic.
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Clayton Blind Love
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that Francesco, seriously. I guess I am in denial over this crap still. Wink Shadowwhaaaa?!?!
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DesignDevil
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of Diggle's run, yeah Matt says outright, or rather thinks, that he chose to kill Bullseye without any influence. To me this was just another example of the poor storytelling of Diggle. If he didn't want us to be debating the issue then he shouldn't have had numerous hints early in his run that there was something inside Matt Murdock manipulating him. The Japan arc he has a dream/vision of Elektra outright telling him there was something inside him. Either thats there to suggest his buttons are already being pushed or it a poor decision to introduce those elements before Matt actually does the deed.

For the overall question, Matt Murdock should have killed Bullseye years ago. This ridiculous notion that if a "hero" takes any life it makes them no better than the Punisher needs to go. Some heroes should have the no killing ever rule. For a character like DD it eventually just makes him look very weak. Frank Miller understood this. Matt didn't want to kill the assassin in TMWF or the helicopter pilot in Born Again, and he rightly regretted having to do both. He recognized that sometimes innocent lives are in direct danger and you have to take lethal action.
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theunrealstudios
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said. When we found out the hooker who Matt pushed out the window in TMWF was his first direct kill (Fixer being an indirect kill), Matt grieves and that had weight on his conscious for years. Iron man and Cap can still be publicly praised yet they kill terrorists all the time on American soil and shrug it off. I think the no kill rule even goes beyond the Catholicism of "shall not kill" because he's a fair weather christian only because his dad made him go to church. The lawyer in him wants to see these men go to jail and serve the balance of justice. Killing Bullseye (with or without the beast) was an act of emotional vengeance and that's why Matt is ashamed because it was murder in the 1st degree and he cheated justice on himself and Bullseye. Heroes like him who don't kill do it not out of practicality of short and long term combat or because they have a "hero complex", they do it because they want to inspire the change they want to see. they want other people to lead more productive lives because of these heroes. they're not trying to inspire more punishers to "take back the streets with rifles". in short you disappoint the people who believed in your ethical structure when you yourself don't follow it as that act made him a liar and hypocrite. i don't believe it in shades of black and white but i can see how others would.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still do not accept Daredevil's conscious decision to kill Bullseye, and that decision is the most disastrous part of the Shadowland debacle. Part of what makes Daredevil my favourite comic book hero is that he holds himself to such a high standard of conduct. He refuses to give up long after the average person would.

For those who think he earned the right to kill Bullseye, and that his "no kill" policy makes him look "weak," I would guess there were similar charges of weakness 30 years ago when he pulled Bullseye out of the path of that subway train.

Part of what makes him heroic, or at least made him heroic in the past, is that he does the right thing when it's difficult to do the right thing, and when he would be judged harshly for it. I felt writers abandoning during the Bendis era. With Shadowland, the character bottomed out, and that inner monologue on the last page of #512 is unforgiveable. Marvel can't take that back. I would love to forget Shadowland.

Waid is doing a fine job writing the character, and I think the fun and brighter direction is a negative reaction to tone of the book for the past several years, and specifically Shadowland. That is the only thing for which we have Shadowland to thank. But disasters don't get much more disastrous.
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DesignDevil
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it ironic that you use the Miller issue where DD saves Bullseye from the train. If I'm remembering it correctly, Bullseye taunts Matt with the fact that from then on every murder he commits is a murder Matt could have prevented. And Bullseye was absolutely right. Half the time when they clash DD is well within the legal rights of self defense. Like when Bullseye threatened Milla in THEIR HOME, Matt should have put him down. There is not a jury in the country that would have convicted him for defending his blind girlfriend from a known mass murderer.

At the end of the day morality has nothing to do with it. Characters like Bullseye will never be killed off permanently because of the serial nature of comics and fans wanting to see the same characters/fights/stories over and over and over. Thats why most comic heroes are held to this ridiculous high moral code of never ever killing, that and the left-over BS from the Comics Code
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RGdesigner wrote:
I find it ironic that you use the Miller issue where DD saves Bullseye from the train. If I'm remembering it correctly, Bullseye taunts Matt with the fact that from then on every murder he commits is a murder Matt could have prevented. And Bullseye was absolutely right. Half the time when they clash DD is well within the legal rights of self defense. Like when Bullseye threatened Milla in THEIR HOME, Matt should have put him down. There is not a jury in the country that would have convicted him for defending his blind girlfriend from a known mass murderer.

I don't find any irony in my choice of a Miller issue. So Bullseye taunts him for saving him and says he shares responsibility for every murder he commits for then on? Bullseye is an amoral psychopath. I don't put much stock on a statement regarding responsibility. And Daredevil chooses to conduct himself at an infinitely higher level of morality.

Saving Bullseye does not make Daredevil responsible for everything Bullseye does in the future. Daredevil says to Manolis in #169, "Nick, men like Bullseye would rule the world... were it not for a structure of laws that society has created to keep such men in check. The moment one man takes another man's life in his own hands, he is rejecting the law... and working to destroy that structure. If Bullseye is a menace to society, it is society that must make him pay the price. Not you. And not me. I... I wanted him to die, Nick. I detest what he does... What he is. But I'm not God... I'm not the law. And I'm not a murderer."

Nothing that has happened since #169 has indicated to me that Matt no longer believes this. Does he hate Bullseye more these days. Yes, I believe he does. But I also believe he believes in the law, and his own morality. And I also think that he believes that if he does kill Bullseye, or does nothing to prevent his wrongful death, that he is contributing to the breakdown of society.

So yeah, Shadowland is garbage, and I never want to see Andy Diggle do anything involving Daredevil again.
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