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| What did you think of DAREDEVIL #599? |
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macjr33
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Nov 2017
Posts: 97
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Sunni wrote: | | Dimetre wrote: | | I absolutely adore David Mack's work on the title, and I would like to think he wasn't that involved in the horrid End of Days, but I have to concede he didn't do enough work to place him above Soule. |
End of Days is on my “Do Not Read” list, LOL. |
I am not even going to try and defend End of Days as it has issues, lots of issues; however, I felt the premise was an interesting one and could have been great had it been executed better. The two things I did like were the opening fight with Bullseye as that is pretty much exactly how I envisioned Matt if he were to die. Second, I did like that he ended up with Natasha in some capacity as I am heavily biased towards them as a couple. Much like Sunni wants Matt and Elektra back together, I want the same only with Natasha even though I know it's never going to happen.
| Sunni wrote: | | That’s an interesting perspective, as I personally would rank art separately from writing. I prefer to have art that I like looking at, but I also think that’s why I’ve weathered the multiple artists in Soule’s run better than other people. I loathe Samnee’s art (no offense to him, but I think it looks like knockoff Archie), but that’s not why Waid’s run didn’t work for me outside of Foggy and Matt’s mom. For example, it wouldn’t have made those scenes on the boat with Kirsten and her dad any less boring if someone else had drawn it. |
That makes sense, for me I guess I have a hard time separating the two. For me the art has to fit the story, Maleev and Samnee couldn't be more different; however, their art fits the story. I've said this before, if David Marquez was doing the art on Daredevil, I think I'd be enjoying Soule's run even more. Now that I think about it some of my issues with Nocenti might be that I loathe Romita Jr.'s art the same way you do Samnee. At times it almost made some of the issues unreadable, for me at least.
| Sunni wrote: | Other people have made that argument, and I do understand that position, but she’s had another 60 solo issues beyond that (her second volume almost doubled her first) plus her team memberships in Thunderbolts, etc. which says to me there’s more stories to tell with Elektra and with Elektra and Matt.
I can and not just because I’m clearly biased. Lately she’s been a heroine who sometimes kills people, not an anti-heroine. It’s a little weird that in three different books with three different writers, she’s hurt (not killed) and arrested people she’d normally would have just killed previously. IMHO Marvel needs to better define what they want out of Elektra. But whether they want to try another solo series with her or have her support Matt instead, the best way to build her up for either of those roles is for her to appear in Daredevil, not be in limbo. |
While she's had other runs and tie ins with other teams like you say, I haven't found much of it to be compelling. I recently picked up the TPB of her 90's series and it's ok. However, she is best when they bring Matt back into it (though I don't like how he was basically ready to cheat on Karen again...). I haven't read any of the Thunderbolts stuff; however, I heard she has a thing with Castle which would kill any interest for me.
To you your point, and I agree, she needs to be properly defined by some writer to move her forward. In my opinion, she needs something similar to what Brubaker and Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist did for Danny Rand.
| Sunni wrote: | | IMHO Marvel largely keeps characters single and childless as to not limit storytelling for the writers; to do something like the Cage family with Luke, Jessica, and Danielle requires long-term editorial backing. It would have been great for Iona to have been real, but without that support, she just would have ended up killed or retconned or forgotten later, which would have been awful. |
You most certainly know more about this than I do. I've only recently got back into comics a few years ago and I've stuck primarily with DD and a few other street level characters like Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist.
With that said, one of the things that I enjoy about Daredevil is that he stays out of most of the broader Marvel events so I think him having a child could work with the right support and vision. Given Matt's own relationship with his father along with the Catholic guilt that is a part of his character, done well, it could be a deep and compelling narrative to explore. I really enjoyed the issue in Waid's run where it was in the future and Matt did have a child. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| macjr33 wrote: | | Sunni wrote: | Other people have made that argument, and I do understand that position, but she’s had another 60 solo issues beyond that (her second volume almost doubled her first) plus her team memberships in Thunderbolts, etc. which says to me there’s more stories to tell with Elektra and with Elektra and Matt.
I can and not just because I’m clearly biased. Lately she’s been a heroine who sometimes kills people, not an anti-heroine. It’s a little weird that in three different books with three different writers, she’s hurt (not killed) and arrested people she’d normally would have just killed previously. IMHO Marvel needs to better define what they want out of Elektra. But whether they want to try another solo series with her or have her support Matt instead, the best way to build her up for either of those roles is for her to appear in Daredevil, not be in limbo. |
While she's had other runs and tie ins with other teams like you say, I haven't found much of it to be compelling. I recently picked up the TPB of her 90's series and it's ok. However, she is best when they bring Matt back into it (though I don't like how he was basically ready to cheat on Karen again...). I haven't read any of the Thunderbolts stuff; however, I heard she has a thing with Castle which would kill any interest for me.
To you your point, and I agree, she needs to be properly defined by some writer to move her forward. In my opinion, she needs something similar to what Brubaker and Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist did for Danny Rand. |
Greg Rucka had a run on the Marvel Knights Elektra series, with most of the art by Carlo Pagulayan. I thought it was very good, and it was collected in a trade a few years ago. It involved a survivor of one of her attacks getting revenge to spur her towards reform. After that she seeks out a new trainer. I would have been curious to see what would have happened if her character was allowed to continue in this new direction.
I really enjoyed the series by Haden Blackman with art by Mike Del Mundo at the time, but now I honestly don't remember what happened in it. It was very mystical. |
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Sunni
Flying Blind
Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| macjr33 wrote: | | I want the same only with Natasha even though I know it's never going to happen. |
Never say never. Although it’s arguable Matt’s role in Natasha’s life has been replaced by Bucky (for example, Matt used to be featured in Black Widow’s issues, but now it’s Bucky), it could still happen if the Daredevil writer liked them together and got editorial to approve it.
| macjr33 wrote: | | I haven't read any of the Thunderbolts stuff; however, I heard she has a thing with Castle which would kill any interest for me. |
Elektra does date Frank in Thunderbolts, and yes, I was not a fan, but it’s surprisingly not a bad read because what’s shown during the course of the relationship is Frank and Elektra really don’t have anything in common besides killing people. Elektra needs more than Frank’s black and white little world, so if anything, it reaffirmed why she always comes back to Matt.
| macjr33 wrote: | You most certainly know more about this than I do. I've only recently got back into comics a few years ago and I've stuck primarily with DD and a few other street level characters like Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist.
With that said, one of the things that I enjoy about Daredevil is that he stays out of most of the broader Marvel events so I think him having a child could work with the right support and vision. Given Matt's own relationship with his father along with the Catholic guilt that is a part of his character, done well, it could be a deep and compelling narrative to explore. I really enjoyed the issue in Waid's run where it was in the future and Matt did have a child. |
Thank you for the complement. I had a lot of problems with that story, which seems to be par for the course with Waid for me, but Jack wasn’t one of them. I agree that a child for Matt could be some really rich thematic material, but what I would be concerned with is a scenario like Writer A starts to explore that territory, next Writer B comes along and kills off the child, and then Writer C retcons the child so they never existed. Moreover, while I think it worked fine to show a panel of Jessica and Danielle playing blocks while Luke and Danny were out working the streets in Power Man and Iron Fist, I think we’d want more in Daredevil than just the happy, sweet scenes too. There’d have to be a serious ongoing commitment to the direction by writing and editorial for it to work in a way that would allow the complexity of storytelling we’d want to read.
| Dimetre wrote: | | macjr33 wrote: | | To you your point, and I agree, she needs to be properly defined by some writer to move her forward. In my opinion, she needs something similar to what Brubaker and Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist did for Danny Rand. |
Greg Rucka had a run on the Marvel Knights Elektra series, with most of the art by Carlo Pagulayan. I thought it was very good, and it was collected in a trade a few years ago. It involved a survivor of one of her attacks getting revenge to spur her towards reform. After that she seeks out a new trainer. I would have been curious to see what would have happened if her character was allowed to continue in this new direction. |
Me too. I think Rucka could have been a defining run for Elektra except he made a few errors near the end that undermined the story he was telling. Those would have been less problematic if his run hadn't been one big story after the first short arc, but it was.
| Dimetre wrote: | | I really enjoyed the series by Haden Blackman with art by Mike Del Mundo at the time, but now I honestly don't remember what happened in it. It was very mystical. |
Blackman’s run is notable for reviving Bullseye, and I liked all the mysticism, but I think it meandered too much, which Blackman basically admitted in the final author’s note. Had it been more compressed, I think it would have made it more than eleven issues. |
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