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DD Book Club - Decalogue
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macjr33
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Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
I feel that one of the ways Bendis' run differs from every other creator's run in Daredevil history is that it seems to work very hard to disguise itself as "not a super-hero comic." Indeed, Bendis and Maleev both arrived on this title fresh out of the indie comic scene. "Underboss" was pretty much a gangster story, with Daredevil having no impact on the plot whatsoever. Your example of Mutant Growth Hormone was introduced as a street drug and turned out to be nothing more than skin shavings off of the Owl. (How that would give Alexander Bont or this latest guy super powers is beyond me.) "Trial of the Century" was a court battle, with barely any superheroics. "Out" was about someone trying to escape a media circus. My point is, in Bendis' Daredevil run, superheroics seem practically incidental. I can't say that about any other run in the title's history. He and Maleev took pains to make this Daredevil book more grounded in the real world than ever before.

That's why I found this demon baby to be so jarring. The first two issues of "Decalogue" were centred on civilians, and we witnessed events from their point of view. To suddenly invoke the occult in the third issue of the story -- yes, it was not expected. To me, that doesn't make it good. It didn't match the tone or the feel of the story Bendis and Maleev had set up.

Because other creative teams in Daredevil's history set up a different tone, it was easier for me to accept other-worldly elements like Mephisto, or the Beast of the Hand, or the Spot. I adored the first few dozen issues of Waid's run, because he and his artists set up a world where we could explore Matt's character, but in a colourful world where so many different things could happen. We could have Foggy battle cancer, but we could also have Dr. Doom insert tiny robots into Daredevil's bloodstream. By contrast, I feel Bendis and Maleev, by limiting the superheroics, narrowed my expectations of what I could expect in their book. Yes, Mr. Hyde showed up, but he seemed to be nothing more than a big strong guy Spidey and Daredevil could take out with a car and a mailbox. Yes, that's realistic, but historically super-hero comics have won fans by defying realistic expectations.

The demon baby may have been easier for me to accept in someone else's run, where I more readily felt other-worldly things could happen. You feel differently, and that's cool. I just feel that if this demon baby didn't work for me, it may have not worked for somebody else for a similar reason.


Thank you for taking the time to provide such a through explanation and I can certainly understand your point of view given what you stated. I guess for me, I never viewed Bendis' run so much as not being a superhero comic vs. what does the gritty underworld of the Marvel Universe look like in a much more personal and intimate way.

So based on what you said I am curious, did you like the inclusion of the Avengers/Captain America in Born Again? I only ask because based on what you said you seem to value how a creative team sets up the narrative. Given what Miller had done in the issues prior the inclusion of the Avengers could be perceived as being a bit out of left field. I know there are some that are critical of the end of Born Again because they feel it pivoted too much. I am not one of those people, I think Born Again is nearly flawless from beginning to end though I am curious of your take given what you had previously stated?
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Mike Murdock
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Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #74 - Decalouge Part 4: Thou Shall Not Steal



Quote:
The secrets of Matt Murdock's clandestine marriage to Milla are revealed at last! The details of Daredevil's year as Kingpin continues in this special love story. Part 4 (of 5).


Due 9/21
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This story feels like it has a ton of retroactive continuity. I commented on it when it came to the guy who bombed Matt Murdock's house, but this lady felt the same way. I sort of get the fact that the other friend who was with Milla back in Lowlife who pushed her to be with Matt would be an odd fit. She knows Matt's situation and all that. But it seems like she got forgotten for this new character. I'm not sure why she would be the witness. The rest of the conversation feels like it's pretty much covering familiar ground and we're already eleven pages in. That's not to say it's not without charm. I think there are some nice moments in the conversation. I liked the "someone should see it" line. But it felt pretty padded.

The story itself could be interesting. Narrative distance could be good so a story that shows a bystander's perspective and doesn't show Daredevil's can work. We recently covered Guts, which is a story from Foggy's perspective. But it also leaves out the most interesting visual parts of the story in a visual medium. It also means, after eleven pages covering what we already know, we get maybe nine pages of the theoretical main focus.

That being said, the last two pages is such a fun twist. Bendis and Maleev have been building towards the idea that the one guy isn't quite right. There's just shots of his facial reactions that make him stand apart from everyone else. But the big thing is the final reveal that Matt Murdock has been in the room the whole time. I don't entirely buy it, but it's a hell of a shock.

Three and a Half Stars. It's slightly better than the first part due to the reveal at the end, but it falls into the same problems of a thin story and a lot of telling not showing.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes recap pages annoy me, like this one.
Quote:
But as the stories and confessions continue, a growing sense of connection between the group starts to grow.

Didn't the group seem incredibly divided by the end of the last issue? They seemed ready to tear each other's heads off. Perhaps that woman's drawing of the demon baby united them all? Still, why would the recap page phrase it like they have a "growing sense of connection"?

I think by now I myself have developed a connection with some of the characters in this group. There seems to be a Twelve Angry Men thing going on here. I think Alex Maleev's work here is some of his best...

But I think he really dropped the ball when we find the daughter doubled over in her room with the drawing of the demon baby. I couldn't understand why her mother was so stunned at an ugly drawing that she would drop the cup of tea. On the following page we find out about the suicide, but Maleev didn't communicate any of that to us through the art. There was no blood on the floor. There was no sign of a suicide at all. If that was intentional, I don't know what was accomplished.

Otherwise, I was impressed with the depiction of the faces of some of the people in the group, particularly the jerky one who knows all these "secrets" about Matt. I am surprised that Matt was able to sit amongst all these people without being noticed. The problem with that is that we, the long-time fans, no exactly what Matt's powers are and aren't. How can Matt sit in a lit room without anyone else in that room noticing him? He has four enhanced senses, a radar sense, and is an expert fighter. Going unnoticed by everyone in a room? I need an explanation.

While a lot of these scenes are well written, and do help us connect with Milla and her friend at work, they rehash events of which we were already aware. We already knew that Matt and Milla got married. Yes, we didn't get to see it until now, and it was nice to see Foggy there. I thought it was cool that Milla was the one who proposed. But it still bugs me how many pages Bendis uses on scenes that don't move the story forward. If the main purpose was to help me develop a connection to Milla's friend, then mission accomplished, but some economy would be nice.

When we saw her on the phone hearing her daughter's anguish, I did feel it. That was well done.

But I have to ask -- why didn't Bendis use the character who was Milla's friend when she first met Matt? I think her name was Laurie, or something close to that. Why create a whole new character? I don't know what was gained by making her uncomfortable about disabilities. That didn't seem to add anything to the story. You could have fleshed out Laurie, since we didn't know that much about her.

I think this issue was actually good. The mother was a compelling character, and she makes this issue worthwhile. However, there are enough Bendis and Maleev oddities here to drive me nuts. The pacing. The rehashing of things we already know. The choice to obscure the signs of a suicide.

I have decided to give this issue a three out of five.
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macjr33
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Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little later on my post but here we go...

As some of you have pointed out already we are getting a little bit of a rehash here of previous events; however, I do find most of it satisfying though I will concede it probably could have been shortened by a couple of pages.

I liked the story with Milla's friend (though I agree that it is interesting her other friend appears to be completely forgotten). What I feel that I liked most about it is that it helps to further ground the story. What I mean by that is that despite the fact we have introduced this demon baby into the mix, seeing how Matt comes to the aid of Milla's friend was touching. You could feel her emotions on the phone and to see the impact it had on her. This goes back to what I highlighted in previous posts that Matt is looking out for the common people.

As for obscuring the signs of the suicide, I agree it was a bit odd. I am wondering if we as the reader aren't supposed to realize until we see the mother's reaction?

I also enjoyed the twist at the with Matt being in amongst the group, agreed that it may not make the most sense; however, it is a fun twist to the story so I am willing to overlook it.

Lastly, Maleev's art is stellar in this issue. In particular, I thought the full page where Matt brings the girl back is particularly striking because you can see by the look on his face that despite "saving" the girl that things are not good.

I agree with the other post that there were some oddities in this issue so I would give this one a 3.5 out of 5 with the extra half point on the strength of Maleev's art and the fun twist at the end.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #75 - Decalouge Part 5: Thou Shall Not Kill



Quote:
"Decalogue." The haunting secret of Matt Murdock's year as Kingpin is revealed in this shocking double-sized conclusion that features a super-sized, hardboiled Daredevil story and a stunning superstar gallery of classic Daredevil images handpicked by the creative team of Bendis and Maleev. Part 5 of 5.


The Decalogue is the Ten Commandments. Since this is only a five-part story, I'm really curious why they chose the ones they did. Bear false witness and steal were moved up in the order - probably to end with the more dramatic one. I'm not saying a ten-part story would have been a good one, but it would have been an ambitious idea to truly explore the commandments.

Due 9/24
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an eerie tension that builds up in the early pages as it's hard to know what to expect. Matt is calm and in charge, which oddly adds to the disorienting feeling of trying to figure out what's going on. Luckily, things are quickly explained.

We flashback to Daredevil's battle with the Jester. I've said before that the Jester is actually one of my favorite Daredevil villains. I liked the redemption arc he had first in Daredevil 218 and then truly in the Playing to the Camera story arc. I don't like how Bendis treats him like a complete joke. Yes, I realize he has an absurd costume and gimmick and all that, but that's part of comics. It doesn't really feel like Jonathan Powers's MO to do something like buying weird magic to get an edge. To me, he's above thinking he couldn't do it himself. On top of that, I always complain that there's this tendency to seek to be super realistic unless it's Japanese, then you can go as supernatural as you want. Honestly, I blame Frank Miller significantly for this. I don't know if it was intentional, he was just cashing in on the ninja craze, but you have very street level villains except for the Hand, and I think everyone followed.

But I am digressing since the story isn't really about the Jester. I'm not sure it's about the demon baby. I think the story tries to have its cake and eat it too. After taking a hard left in that direction, it veers back at the end. The demon is defeated fairly anticlimactically and the story goes back to the therapy group. Matt's speech is actually a good speech. It fits the themes of the little guy and community that work well for the character. It also seems to fit the ongoing story of Matt's mental state. His recent actions were reckless to the point of nihilistic and he confesses as much right here. But I don't think the speech was earned. The little guy stories needed to be beefier to really get the point across, imo. I know I'm asking a lot for a modern comic, but they needed twice as much content per story and I think an argument could be made that they needed to have two per issue (I'm assuming this can't be a ten story arc - although it was a Ten Commandments metaphor, so the argument could be made either way).

This is probably the third time reading this story. To its credit, I noticed more in the final speech than I did the last two times, which has warmed me up to it a bit. But I feel that it doesn't do enough with the concept or really enough overall. This could have been a much stronger story with more planning and tighter writing. Three and a Half Stars.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think it's a shame that the Jester is treated like a C-grade villain this issue. When Mike Murdock and I looked at the Jester's first appearances last year, I was struck by what a legitimate threat he was to Daredevil under Stan Lee and Gene Colan's mastery. http://www.manwithoutfear.com/messageboard/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3778&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I have long had a problem with Brian Michael Bendis' tendency to downplay how threatening Daredevil's villains are. It seems that every one of Daredevil's old foes he brought forward throughout his Daredevil run has been referred to as a "loser," "pathetic," or something to that effect. (Maybe not Typhoid.) It makes me think that Bendis doesn't understand that the more seriously an audience takes a villain, the more invested they grow in the hero's quest to overcome them. His choice to refer to the Jester as "an idiot" baffles me. I'll never understand the compulsion to pair a hero with an inadequate antagonist. If Bendis thinks the Jester sucks, than either don't use him, or portray him in a way that makes him better. He does neither of those things, and I'll never understand what enjoyment we're supposed to take from that.

The explanation for the demon baby is given in this issue, but it's an enormous exposition dump. Once again, Alex Maleev makes no effort to portray what is being explained. We just have Matt's 26 dialogue balloons surrounding drawings of Lawrence as we zoom in closer on him. This page makes no use of what comics does so well -- show us a story.

I also thought Matt's final speech was strong. He respects the people of Hell's Kitchen, and shows a new awareness of his effect on their lives.

But I think "Decalogue" is an absolute mess. As I typed before, its original idea, as it was presented to us, was fine. We would be looking at ordinary citizens and be shown how their lives were touched by the Man Without Fear. Instead, the story is violently jerked midway by the appearance of a demon baby from an ancient religion. However, in the end, Bendis has Matt deliver a speech about the people of the community, and Daredevil's place among them. What did all the stuff about the demon baby have to do with that?

I think all of the stuff with the demon baby is awful. I think both instances this issue where it gets vomited up are both gross and ridiculous. The baby doesn't even do anything. The most we see it do is try to crawl up a woman's mouth, but Daredevil touches it. This demon baby can not only be punched, it can be shot and killed. A demon can be punched, shot and killed.

As I try to score this issue, I have to give points for Matt's speech, but all the stuff with the demon baby and the depiction of the Jester is awful. I think I'm giving this issue a 2.5 out of five. As I said, I think the entire arc is a mess, with the demon baby contributing nothing to whatever Bendis is trying to say. It's too bad, because there were a couple of good issues in this arc, but it adds up to very little. I think I'm giving "Decalogue" a 2.5 out of 5 also.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:

It seems that every one of Daredevil's old foes he brought forward throughout his Daredevil run has been referred to as a "loser," "pathetic," or something to that effect. (Maybe not Typhoid.)


I believe she was referred to as a "crazy *%&@"

I think the argument can even be applied to this demon baby and the creepy dude he inhabited. In the end, he wasn't much of a threat either. I tried to credit it as trying to pivot back to the original story idea, but Matt basically says all his villains self-destruct in the end and this was the same.
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macjr33
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Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we open this issue, we get Matt addressing the group. I really like Maleev's art here and he depicts the facial expressions of each of those in attendance. I also love how he addresses Lawrence, "If you try to run I WILL chase you. If you try to attack me, I WILL hurt you. If you try to hurt anyone else in this room...God help you!. Stay. Sit." He's clam and in charge.

As for the flashback regarding the Jester. Love the art for the fight scene, particularly how the billy club is issued. The first full page is beautiful as well.

Now, for how the Jester is depicted. I will admit, I haven't read his original appearance so I can't claim to know how much of a threat he was to Matt; however, I personally have no issue with how he is treated. Dimetre, I do understand how you feel with regards to Bendis downplaying some of Matt's older rogues gallery; however, my take is that he does this because he wants to play up how much of a true threat Bullyseye and the Kingpin are to Matt. That there is such a wide gap between those two and the rest of his rogues (with perhaps the exception of Typhoid Mary). In the next arc, Matt knocks Angela off a building and breaks her arm because even with the White Tiger Amulet she is no match for Bullseye. So in that sense I can see what Bendis is trying to do.

Back to the story, we get the explanation of the demon baby and I probably agree with Mike here that you can be super street level until you bring in something Japanese than all bets are off. I don't really have too much of an issue with it as Mike points out Bendis is hardly the first person to do it. I do like that Matt tries to help him.

When Matt comes back to the room, I do like the writing here. I actually like that Matt compares the demon baby to another other weapon because the end result is the same. I like the line about how they all self destruct as well as the line to the priest about how you can't pick and chose if you believe in God/Jesus/angels. Matt speech to group is strong and I love that he spent all this time saying he isn't a ninja and then the FBI agent says "$@#&ING Ninja", made me laugh. Last page is also great.

So for Decalogue as whole. I concede that it could have been executed better and that there probably was a greater story to tell that Bendis decided to change. With that said, there is a lot I enjoyed here from both the art and the writing. To me what this arc does well (and what I feel Bendis did well through his entire run) is connect Matt with people and really flesh out the world in which he lives in. Is this the best arc in Bendi's run, no; however, I did enjoy it.

4 out of 5 for me.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macjr33 wrote:
Dimetre, I do understand how you feel with regards to Bendis downplaying some of Matt's older rogues gallery; however, my take is that he does this because he wants to play up how much of a true threat Bullyseye and the Kingpin are to Matt. That there is such a wide gap between those two and the rest of his rogues (with perhaps the exception of Typhoid Mary). In the next arc, Matt knocks Angela off a building and breaks her arm because even with the White Tiger Amulet she is no match for Bullseye. So in that sense I can see what Bendis is trying to do.

Except Bullseye is referred to as "pathetic" and "nothing" in #49. Daredevil even tells him he should kill himself.

And in #50 we have Ming showing open contempt and no fear to Fisk, even after the Kingpin orders the rape and murder of his wife. There is always someone in a Bendis Daredevil comic, whether it's Agent Driver, Ming or Daredevil himself, poking holes in the reputations of the villains, and I don't see the value in it.
macjr33 wrote:
So based on what you said I am curious, did you like the inclusion of the Avengers/Captain America in Born Again? I only ask because based on what you said you seem to value how a creative team sets up the narrative. Given what Miller had done in the issues prior the inclusion of the Avengers could be perceived as being a bit out of left field. I know there are some that are critical of the end of Born Again because they feel it pivoted too much. I am not one of those people, I think Born Again is nearly flawless from beginning to end though I am curious of your take given what you had previously stated?

Sorry for not getting around to answering this question. I've enjoyed this back and forth, so I don't want you to feel disrespected or ignored.

I suppose the first time I read "Born Again" I felt like the Avengers showed up out of nowhere, and that it was a little jarring. However, I didn't for a second think that it ruined it. I think that Marvel did a much better job in the 80s making the Marvel Universe feel like a single cohesive universe. If Dr. Doom made the Baxter Building take off like a rocket into outer space, it was in outer space in all of Marvel's titles. Marvel isn't like that anymore, and I think it was more fun for me when it was. So, because it's an 80s story, the Avengers' appearance in "Born Again" stays true to that era's "anything can happen and anyone can appear" feel.

Also, Miller had Luke Cage and Iron Fist and The Punisher show up in his initial run on Daredevil. Yes, they're more street level characters than the Avengers, but it still meant, to me, that anyone could show up in Daredevil's stories.

Also, Thor and Iron Man's appearances in "Born Again" are very brief. They enter and exit within a couple of pages. Captain America's presence in "Born Again" fits in perfectly as a conterweight to Nuke. Cap doesn't take over. It's still Matt's story. And, as is made clear by his discussion with Cap on the rooftop, Matt is the one in control of this story.

I love "Born Again." While I think #181 is the greatest issue of a comic book ever, "Born Again" may be the best multi-issue story Frank Miller ever wrote.
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macjr33
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Except Bullseye is referred to as "pathetic" and "nothing" in #49. Daredevil even tells him he should kill himself.

And in #50 we have Ming showing open contempt and no fear to Fisk, even after the Kingpin orders the rape and murder of his wife. There is always someone in a Bendis Daredevil comic, whether it's Agent Driver, Ming or Daredevil himself, poking holes in the reputations of the villains, and I don't see the value in it.


I think context is important here, particularly for the Bullseye example you listed in #49. He said these things right after Bullseye tried to hit the trifecta by murdering Milla, in his home while being the first time I think he has seen Bullseye since he murdered Karen. Bullseye also mocked him about saying hi to all his girlfriends in Hell. I would be pretty angry as well.

As for Fisk, in the same issue you referenced Matt also called him a force of nature.

We can agree to disagree on this as to me, it didn't take away anything for me.


Dimetre wrote:
Sorry for not getting around to answering this question. I've enjoyed this back and forth, so I don't want you to feel disrespected or ignored.

I suppose the first time I read "Born Again" I felt like the Avengers showed up out of nowhere, and that it was a little jarring. However, I didn't for a second think that it ruined it. I think that Marvel did a much better job in the 80s making the Marvel Universe feel like a single cohesive universe. If Dr. Doom made the Baxter Building take off like a rocket into outer space, it was in outer space in all of Marvel's titles. Marvel isn't like that anymore, and I think it was more fun for me when it was. So, because it's an 80s story, the Avengers' appearance in "Born Again" stays true to that era's "anything can happen and anyone can appear" feel.

Also, Miller had Luke Cage and Iron Fist and The Punisher show up in his initial run on Daredevil. Yes, they're more street level characters than the Avengers, but it still meant, to me, that anyone could show up in Daredevil's stories.

Also, Thor and Iron Man's appearances in "Born Again" are very brief. They enter and exit within a couple of pages. Captain America's presence in "Born Again" fits in perfectly as a conterweight to Nuke. Cap doesn't take over. It's still Matt's story. And, as is made clear by his discussion with Cap on the rooftop, Matt is the one in control of this story.

I love "Born Again." While I think #181 is the greatest issue of a comic book ever, "Born Again" may be the best multi-issue story Frank Miller ever wrote.


No worries, and thanks for the well thought out response makes much more sense given the context. I wasn't aware of how tighter the Marvel Universe was in the 80's as I was born in the 80's! Very Happy

As I said, I love the appearance of the Avengers and Cap's extended involvement as it does make the MU feel much more connected!
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