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Who is the better writer?
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Who is the better writer?
Neil Gaiman
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
Alan Moore
63%
 63%  [ 7 ]
Frank Miller
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 11

Author Message
ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Privateer wrote:
I will dig them out of the loft for you then. I was reading Sleeper and Global Frequency Back issues, but I will slot in some Sandman then. Laughing

I was planning on funding my retirement on selling them on eBay!



if you want to sell them i'm buying i've got the tpbs but these are on my originals required...

mark
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ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorian Gray wrote:


I picked Gaiman over Moore primarily on the fact that Gaiman has constantally suceeded in more mediums. His comics, books, and movie all have great reviews and are all pretty much great. Moore does have more skill at telling different stories but I thought having skill in different mediums was a little bit more important. But it probably helps Gaiman that I am reading American Gods right now and am loving every minute of it.


Hey DG my theory is that this cadre of writers is stronger for being contempories and probably inspire one another. I definetly pick up a synergy when i read these guys together in a shortish timeframe , while they both remain the definition of original.

mark
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozddzealot wrote:

and jc seriously if DC want to throw money at miller to do batman ad infinitum shoot the editor. Miller's ouvre is much larger than killing joke and not to acknowledge it is a bit of a cheap shot.
mark


First off, this is one of the rare occassions where I can see why people might disagree. That said:

Killing Joke is better than Dark Knight. It just is. Dark Knight is fantastic and Miller really hammers out some great stuff built around great themes. But....comon, it's Killing Joke. It's. It's. It's profound in a way that I can't even explain. The Joker is so crazy but so real. You feel bad for the guy (well, I feel bad for the guy).

Maybe it's just that I like crime so much or the fact that I'm impressed that Moore explains why crime happens so well but for me it's Killing Joke all the way.

"To Crime"
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Why aren't you laughing?
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ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:


Killing Joke is better than Dark Knight. It just is. Dark Knight is fantastic and Miller really hammers out some great stuff built around great themes. But....comon, it's Killing Joke. It's. It's. It's profound in a way that I can't even explain. The Joker is so crazy but so real. You feel bad for the guy (well, I feel bad for the guy).

Maybe it's just that I like crime so much or the fact that I'm impressed that Moore explains why crime happens so well but for me it's Killing Joke all the way.

"To Crime"


JC I so didn't get where you were coming from on this one.. I stuffed up, have to admit a major brain fade...my error and my shame is that I had forgotten that AM did Killing Joke, so i didn't get your post. i just reread it now.

that said Killing Joke was always a mixed book for me, while the joke at the end is brilliant, the ending itself frustrates me. Batman and Joker are at a primal place. I know its predictable but I thought batman should shove his hand down joker's throat and clench a fist. I would even offer that Batman has responsibility for joker's crimes as joker is performing them for Batman! and I felt like the book should have resolved this dillema. AM could've done this so well, that why I was disapointed, Batman Vs Joker has gone on for too long.

Whereas DKR had Batman investigating his own mortality, the line "this would be a good death" sold me on the book. In general I thought DKR was a more accurate take on Batman. Killing Joke shows off AM power but I feel is not as accurate to Batman. DKR2 was shiesenhowsen though...

AM is still streets ahead, Anyway I heard your POV and i do think its within your power to explain the love, give it a go?
(I'm wondering if your running with the redemption angle) ie. Batmans greatness is his power to forgive? I'm very suspicious that i'm reacting like a cop in why I like DKR over Killing Joke.

Mark

and sorry for my sieve-like memory Embarassed
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To tell the truth, I didn't really get your post (the one I replyed to) either. I just assumed it was typos or something.

In any event: that's the great thing about the Killing Joke; it doesn't resolve. It just sort of ends. Okay. How to explain this.

Okay, I don't know if this is what you meant to say but you seem to suggest that the idea that Batman is somehow responsible for the Joker's crimes is in some way a theme of the Killing Joke. I don't think so. The point of the Killing Joke, as far as I can tell, is that Joker is crazy because of entirely random and horrible things that happened to him. His wife and unborn child die in a terribly freak accident. Then he's forced, against his will to commit a crime and then he falls into the chemical stuff. I'd argue that the crime and the run in with Batman and all that is random as well insofar as Joker himself didn't have any control over it.

So the point is this: the Joker was just a guy and then terrible, terrible random stuff happened to him. When he realized that everything was just random, when he realized that it was all a joke, he "cracks". That's why he does what he does to Gordon. He's just trying to prove the point that if something terrible enough happens to someone they too will crack. That's why he says he'll give Gordon a moment to "reflect on life and all it's random injustice". It was random injustice that made the Joker.

Okay, this isn't making lots of sense but the point is this: it's all a joke. Okay this is going to get a little over the top here but "justice" as it is usually defined means "to each man his due". When people get what they deserve then it's a just result. But that's the point, see? The Joker didn't deserve what happened to him. It wasn't just. So he's crazy now. But not really. He just realized that it was a joke.

Okay, I'll try again. What's the point of bringing the Joker to justice? Why pretend that justice even exists? Say Joker kills some woman and her child. That's wrong. But what about Joker? His wife and child died. Who's fault is that? No one's. But what's the difference? Why should we care that the random injustice suffered by one person has a human factor attached while the injustice suffered by someone else was just random? At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Hunting down murderers when people die for no reason every day is a little empty. That's the point.

That's why there's no end. That's why the Joker and Batman just laugh. Because it's a joke. Batman caught the Joker but it doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything. No amount of catching the bad guys will bring back Joker's wife. It's a joke.

And that's that.

And it's funny.
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ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
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Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JC

Man which way to reply to this? the boring way would be a semantic rant on choice, predestination, and freewill, so i'll leave that on the shelf, all stuff your very familliar with i'm sure.

so in the interests of black humour; IMO...the joker got his just deserts for being a bad comedian, a weak character, and choosing to be a thief. Sure the price was a little high(heavy dose of irony here), but thats what you get for taking risks with fate. He is really evil because he chooses to embrace his misfortune, he gets the joke but because he's a monster (I doubt he's insane at all anymore) he chooses to embrace the negative aspect of freewill and try to be the ultimate form of random (bad) luck. (as you aptly describe as a joke (I'm not sure about the funny though))

As a flip side to this thought I think one of the biggest jokes(sadly) in the universe is the idea that each man will get his due. In the scheme of the human experience, justice is as rare as hens teeth.

That our comic book hero's, (and a few real people out in the real world) try to attend to this makes them foolish, romantic and tragic (and we love them for it, and buy the comics for our dose of fiction/escapism).

Anyway i'm romantic and foolish enough to believe that even when you get the joke, you still die trying, (making your own choices), to make the world a better place.

and not least (and I presume your fishing here) its not empty chasing murder's at all, just ask a Next Of Kin what it means to get closure on this human element (as pointless as the incident might have been).

We should care about the human element of injustice/misfortune because thats the only thing we can change. (This is where I'm especially tragic...)

mark

spoiler

possibly offensive lawyer joke ahead


































ps lawyer joke for you:

Q? whats the difference between a lawyer and a prostitute?
A a prostitute stops (insert word here) you when you die.

i have even better ones about coppers but they probably need to be emailed
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Pete
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good thread and an interesting read.

It's a tough call between Miller and Moore, but mainly for the reasons already stated by others, if I could only choose one it would have to be Moore. I mean it would have to be Moore if all he did was 'V For Vendetta'. Yes, Killing Joke, From Hell, some of the Swamp Thing stuff...I haven't read Promethea but on the back of Carrie's review I'll pick it up. Years ago he did a great strip called 'Halo Jones' for the UK 2000ad weekly anthology. And Watchmen is, well, Watchmen.

It's all great stuff, but it all pales next to 'V For Vendetta'. Maybe it's because I first read it at a certain time and in a certain place (late 80's /1990, London, Thatchers Britain) but the whole thing just made such an impression, made all the more impressive with the knowledge that there was a huge gap between Moore beginning and ending the whole project. Through the selfishness, degradation and brutality that blighted much of the tale (and yeah, it was easy to forsee such a thing happening in the not too distant future back then), Moore crafted one of the most uplifting, humane tales I've read, anywhere. Beautiful.

So, Moore. Miller a close, close second for many other reasons (all a world apart from 'uplifting' and 'humane'.)

I think Moore and Miller between them revolutionised the industry and changed the way people looked at this small, peculiar sandbox we all here enjoy playing in. Comic books actually were all hip and trendy for a while when these guys flexed their muscles. As good as some of his stuff is, Gainman isn't in the same league.
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