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How do you rate Bendis' run on Daredevil?
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How do you rate Bendis' run on Daredevil?
*****
51%
 51%  [ 18 ]
****
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
***
17%
 17%  [ 6 ]
**
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
*
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 35

Author Message
Jack Faber
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Jack Faber wrote:
james castle wrote:
Jack Faber wrote:
Okay, I gave it 4 stars, here's why. First off, he had a tough act to follow with Kevin Smith and Quasada, so Underboss is forgiven of any shortcomings.


Rrrr. You're not actually saying Smith's nonsensical crap was better than Bendis are you? You can't be.

As for Forrest: The Widow was an examination of Matt and Milla. If you missed that then you missed the whole thing.


I'm not saying that Smith is better than Bendis, I'm saying that Smith's Guardian Devil is better than Benids' Underboss. However, I find Out and Hardcore, just for starters, are better than Smith's Guardian.


I've taken craps that are better comics than Guardian Devil.


I'm asked for my opinion in a poll, so I say why. Yet the only response you give me is a comment on your bowel movements? Please, elaborate, maybe I'll change my mind, but not about bowel movements. You're right with the Widow being an analyze of Matt and Milla, so I believe there is intelligence in you. I'm not upset, but breathe and explain.

Thanks.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Faber wrote:


I'm asked for my opinion in a poll, so I say why. Yet the only response you give me is a comment on your bowel movements? Please, elaborate, maybe I'll change my mind, but not about bowel movements. You're right with the Widow being an analyze of Matt and Milla, so I believe there is intelligence in you. I'm not upset, but breathe and explain.

Thanks.


Hey, I don't mean to be crass. It's just that Guardian Devil is so laughably bad that it's hard not to understate it without bringing up actual human waste. Why is it so bad? Well:

1. It doesn't make any sense. The number of plot holes riddling GD is ridiculous. I don't know why but the one that gets me the most is where Kingpin is reading about Karen Page's death and he says "touche" or something. Indicating that he is impressed that Mysterio had Bullseye kill Karen. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. First off, Mysterio didn't try to kill Karen, Bullseye did it as an after thought. Of course Kingpin wouldn't know that but what does that mean? Is Smith actually showing us one frame of Kingpin being mistaken? What? Plus, is Kingpin so impressed because he never thought of killing Karen? Oh wait...he tried to kill Karen...in BORN AGAIN, the story that GD is apparently a psudo-sequal to.

2. Smith is a terrible writer. He's terrible. His ridiculous fan-boy name dropping of other heroes is ridiculous. It's stupid because 1) it is so obvious that he's just trying ot prove that he (Smith) is cool and 2) the names he drops are stupid. Does he really think he's showing off how cool he is because name checks Dazzler? What the hell is Dazzler's name even doing in a DD comic?

3. Mysterio?

4. The worst handling of AIDS ever. Smith disgustingly uses a very serious disease for nothing more than it's shock value. Sick.

5. Didn't anyone else notice how many times Matt goes from 0 to 10 on the angry scale in about 2 seconds through out the story? It's just poor character writing.

So tell me, what did you find good about GD?
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JR
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that GD gets the benifit of the doubt alot of times because of where and when it came out. We were all so excited. Frankly, at the time, I could have cared less about the name dropping, the total lack of character arc and development, and the generally crappy and nonsensical rehashing of Born Again. That being said, I think that this will age the worst of any of the volume two DD comics we have seen thus far. I may not be of the opinion that Bendis' run is fantastic, 4 stars, whatever, but I do think that it is no way shape or form even close to being as bad at any point as GD.

Smith is rather lame.

JR.
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Jack Faber
Flying Blind


Joined: 29 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Jack Faber wrote:


I'm asked for my opinion in a poll, so I say why. Yet the only response you give me is a comment on your bowel movements? Please, elaborate, maybe I'll change my mind, but not about bowel movements. You're right with the Widow being an analyze of Matt and Milla, so I believe there is intelligence in you. I'm not upset, but breathe and explain.

Thanks.


Hey, I don't mean to be crass. It's just that Guardian Devil is so laughably bad that it's hard not to understate it without bringing up actual human waste. Why is it so bad? Well:

1. It doesn't make any sense. The number of plot holes riddling GD is ridiculous. I don't know why but the one that gets me the most is where Kingpin is reading about Karen Page's death and he says "touche" or something. Indicating that he is impressed that Mysterio had Bullseye kill Karen. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. First off, Mysterio didn't try to kill Karen, Bullseye did it as an after thought. Of course Kingpin wouldn't know that but what does that mean? Is Smith actually showing us one frame of Kingpin being mistaken? What? Plus, is Kingpin so impressed because he never thought of killing Karen? Oh wait...he tried to kill Karen...in BORN AGAIN, the story that GD is apparently a psudo-sequal to.

2. Smith is a terrible writer. He's terrible. His ridiculous fan-boy name dropping of other heroes is ridiculous. It's stupid because 1) it is so obvious that he's just trying ot prove that he (Smith) is cool and 2) the names he drops are stupid. Does he really think he's showing off how cool he is because name checks Dazzler? What the hell is Dazzler's name even doing in a DD comic?

3. Mysterio?

4. The worst handling of AIDS ever. Smith disgustingly uses a very serious disease for nothing more than it's shock value. Sick.

5. Didn't anyone else notice how many times Matt goes from 0 to 10 on the angry scale in about 2 seconds through out the story? It's just poor character writing.

So tell me, what did you find good about GD?


Mr. Castle,

To answer your questions, one by one,

1.) The "touche" very well may be the Kingpin being mistaken. The point is that he finds Mysterio to be better than he originally thought, agreeing that it's better than his nursing home swindles. Also, if you look at "Why Not: What if Karen Page lived," also written by Bendis, you notice the Kingpin says, "He offered me a million dollars to help him do something I would have paid him twenty million to do for me." The Kingpin is enjoying this. And in Born Again, it never said that the Kingpin ordered for Karen Page's death, but for them to kill everyone who had the information. At that time, Kingpin might not have known that it would be on Karen Page, and only later realize who it was.

2.) I found the reference of the Dazzler at the end to be funny. Maybe it's funny because it's stupid. Intentional or not, it lighten ups the mood up a littel after having Karen kill.

3.) Mysterio? Hey, if you thought he was a lame character, be glad he was killed off.

4.) He gave her a disease because it leads her to be at the church for their last conversation, which Matt yells at her and she runs out crying, largely because he blames her for the AIDS while she is feeling guilt from possibly spreading it to Matt, as Mysterio's human counterpart stated. This is not a nice way to remember your girlfriend before she's killed by your nemesis. Also, it is better than MS ("What the hell is MS?"), or breast cancer ("Karen, you're getting to that age, it happens"). He came up with a disease that goes back to her junkie life that didn't need explaining. I didn't care for her being diseased either (hell, she died right after).

5.) The reason for the mood swings were because he was infected with the toxin in the cross Mysterio gave him. He responded raged whenever someone defended the child. Dr. Strange explains this.

It didn't find GD that good (you probably thinking it has a pedistal in my room), but rather by comparison to Underboss, which I'm not all that interested in the drama within the Kingpin's organization killng him. It seemed drawn out and slow at times. And in the end, DareDevil isn't outed, but merely revealed to the FBI. It isn't until Out, the end of the first part, that Matt is officially Outed. Underboss, I like in the grand sceme of the Bendis era (he had to start the story somehow), I only wish it was more DareDevil and less Kingpin's men.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR wrote:
I think that GD gets the benifit of the doubt alot of times because of where and when it came out. We were all so excited.

JR.


I agree with this like crazy. When it came out I was all excited and impressed by the art and happy about Bullseye being back and etc., etc.. Plus, issues were constantly late so it was just cool when an issue actually arrived. At the time I sort of liked it.

But then I reread it all at once a couple years ago when I bought vol. 1 HC and....crap. It's a crap story. I defy anyone to explain to me what's "good" about GD.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
I defy anyone to explain to me what's "good" about GD.


I really liked the covers to issues #1 and #7! Razz
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james castle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Faber wrote:

Mr. Castle,


Looks likes we have another Stephan on our hands. My name isn't really "james castle" so "Mr. Castle" doesn't make sense. Plus, we're not writing each other letters from across the sea so let's skip the formalities shall we?

Jack Faber wrote:


1.) The "touche" very well may be the Kingpin being mistaken. The point is that he finds Mysterio to be better than he originally thought, agreeing that it's better than his nursing home swindles.


But you've missed my point. So Kingpin thinks that Mysterio did it but he didn't. Kingpin is mistaken. We know he's mistake and Smith knows he's mistaken. The question is "why show a picture of Kingpin being mistaken?". You've missed the point entirely.

Jack Faber wrote:

Also, if you look at "Why Not: What if Karen Page lived," also written by Bendis, you notice the Kingpin says, "He offered me a million dollars to help him do something I would have paid him twenty million to do for me." The Kingpin is enjoying this. And in Born Again, it never said that the Kingpin ordered for Karen Page's death, but for them to kill everyone who had the information. At that time, Kingpin might not have known that it would be on Karen Page, and only later realize who it was.


You've stilled missed the point. It's not about what Kingpin may have been thinking. It's about us as readers knowing he's wrong.

Jack Faber wrote:

2.) I found the reference of the Dazzler at the end to be funny. Maybe it's funny because it's stupid. Intentional or not, it lighten ups the mood up a littel after having Karen kill.


Yeah, it was hilarious (just to be safe though, please explain how mentioning Dazzler is funny). Plus, that is only one example. The whole thing is covered in silly "I'm Kevin Smith and I'm cool" crap.

Jack Faber wrote:

3.) Mysterio? Hey, if you thought he was a lame character, be glad he was killed off.


Actually what I didn't like about it was the fact that it was clearly thought up after the fact. The whole Mysterio thing doesn't even really fit into the rest of the story. It's so clear that Smith just tacked it on in the end when he couldn't figure out a way to finish the story. It was lame and contrived and stupid.

Jack Faber wrote:

4.) He gave her a disease because it leads her to be at the church for their last conversation, which Matt yells at her and she runs out crying, largely because he blames her for the AIDS while she is feeling guilt from possibly spreading it to Matt, as Mysterio's human counterpart stated. This is not a nice way to remember your girlfriend before she's killed by your nemesis. Also, it is better than MS ("What the hell is MS?"), or breast cancer ("Karen, you're getting to that age, it happens"). He came up with a disease that goes back to her junkie life that didn't need explaining. I didn't care for her being diseased either (hell, she died right after).


First off, as far as "what the hell is MS?" I'll just say that it's an potentially crippling auto-immune disease that my brother happens to have so I'll thank you to show a little respect. Not that you could have known that my brother specifically has it but it's a fairly common disease (to the tune of 1 in 500 or something) so perhaps you shouldn't shoot your mouth off so quickly.

As for AIDS...did you read the comics? Karen shows up at the end of the first or second issue and proclaims "I have AIDS" complete with oversized "AIDS". He uses it as a cliff hanger. Then it sort of gets dropped and there's some lame thing about how Matt doesn't have AIDS and then she dies. There are a million different ways that she could have ran out the door. In fact, before her rather lame death Karen ran out the door a lot. Other writers found dramatic ways to facilitate that without having to use AIDS in an insulting way.

Jack Faber wrote:

5.) The reason for the mood swings were because he was infected with the toxin in the cross Mysterio gave him. He responded raged whenever someone defended the child. Dr. Strange explains this.


No, no but he raged out even apart from that. Did you read GD? I'm beginning to wonder.

Jack Faber wrote:

It didn't find GD that good (you probably thinking it has a pedistal in my room), but rather by comparison to Underboss, which I'm not all that interested in the drama within the Kingpin's organization killng him. It seemed drawn out and slow at times. And in the end, DareDevil isn't outed, but merely revealed to the FBI. It isn't until Out, the end of the first part, that Matt is officially Outed. Underboss, I like in the grand sceme of the Bendis era (he had to start the story somehow), I only wish it was more DareDevil and less Kingpin's men.


Your critique of Underboss is mindboggling. He wasn't outed, he was just "revealed" to the FBI. Yeah, that's no problem. Just revealed to the FBI. Who cares? Hahaha.

As for you not liking GD that much: I'm saying I dare you to defend it at all. It's crap. Crap. Crap. Crap.

In related news everyone should check out aintitcool's review of the final Spidey/Blackcat. Oh, heck, I'll reprint it here. This is the whole review: "something are best left undone." Haha. Smith is a loser.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After rereading all Bendis's DD, I had to give it 5 stars. (You hear that Privateer? Razz) I'd always been amazed at Bendis's early DD, but not until I could see the end result did it all sink in. As for Bendis's later arcs (Widow through issue #74), I'd still consider these arcs major let downs. However, now, I'd consider each ~4 stars. Initially, these arcs were so annoying because of when they were released:

After Hardcore, we waited through Mack's worthless (except for the art) Echo story. Then, King of Hell's Kitched kicked off with one heck of a bang. It did kind of drizzle out, but still, I expected big things. We didn't get any big stories until the Murdock Papers. We didn't get the daring DD that we expected after #50. By The Murdock Papers, I was so jaded on Bendis, who seemed like a totally different writer versus his old DD stuff, that I couldn't possibly enjoy the Murdock Papers, until #81.

There's no getting around it, Bendis slacked off big on in later DD. However, that slacking off still resulted in good stories. Not great, like his previous work, but good.

Decalouge really pulled it together, even if whoever wrote the
solicits should be shot. Murdock Papers was a great story. However, it was too damn subtle in many levels. So, altogether, Bendis might get a 4.7 for his run, which I would consider higher than any other DD writer I can think of.

(Just for the sake of argument:

Chichester: 4.6 - Could have been 4.9 if he quit after #319
Miller: 4.4 - Yep, I said it. To me, MWOF really damaged his legacy. (I know I'm fairly alone in this.)
Nocenti: 4.5 - Matt's mental breakdown upon returning to NYC was a bit much. Also, while she pulled it of 90% off the time, sometimes her political views came across as really trendy and awkward.)

Oh and while we're at it, I have always liked DD:Ninja. It's such a fun swashbuckling DD adventure. Me likey long time!
So, there you go. If you want to discredit the guy who likes Bendis's 26-50 better than Born Again, just point out that I like DD:Ninja. Razz

My final thought is this:

No writer captured DD the superhero better than Chichester.
Likewise, no writer has ever captured Matt Murdock better than Bendis, especially the lawyer angle.
(No one every captured the Kingpin better than Miller. Very Happy )
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james castle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as an interesting point of fact, I saw Bendis speak at the Toronto Con last year and he said that at some point he took a year off from writing DD. Apparently he was just so far ahead of his scripts that he was able to just forget about DD for a year. Anybody wanna bet that the year off was right after he finished King of Hell's Kitchen?
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Solid Snake PAC
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huh...I wonder if that was during that period of Issues? I wonder....
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james castle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solid Snake PAC wrote:
huh...I wonder if that was during that period of Issues? I wonder....


huh...I wonder if this post makes any sense? I wonder...
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Pete
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
Nocenti: 4.5 - Matt's mental breakdown upon returning to NYC was a bit much. Also, while she pulled it of 90% off the time, sometimes her political views came across as really trendy and awkward.)




You make some astute points Forrest. I'm in agreement with a lot of what you say. But as for the above points regarding Nocenti, in what way were her political views 'trendy' and 'awkward'?

Granted, with a subject like politics, a lot depends on your own personal views. When someone like Nocenti comes along and takes the reins of a mainstream superhero comic book, then proceeds to insert all kinds of political/social commentary into it, its not going to be to everyones liking. Her views on a number of issues like the environment and feminism are dealt with during her run. But far from being 'awkward' (unless they happen to run counter to your own standpoint on such issues of course) she created a long long run of interesting, thought provoking and original issues that only added to the depth of the central character. Nowhere at no time did I read her stuff and think, 'this just isn't DD' or 'Hey, Matt would never say/do that'. This wasn't a square peg trying to get into a round hole. If any Marvel character was suited to the stories she wanted to tell, that character was Matt. Nocenti followed on from Born Again. Instead of apeing/doing a carbon copy of Miller she was original right from the start and made the book her own. Despite a lot of support from people on this board, I actually think she's still underated as a writer.

As for 'trendy'. With who? All these things came in the era of Reagan/Reagan/Bush Snr and Thatcher. Do you mean trendy in a students/counterculture/minority context? Her politics certainly wasn't palatable with the majority of western electorates back then in the 80's, nor with any policies emiting from western governments.
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Clayton Blind Love
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With respect to Guardian Devil, Karen never did have aids. It was all an illusion by Mysterio.

Issue #7

"It's amazing isn't it? A lifetime full of questionable moral behavior did more to convince her that she was riddled with disease than me in my rented doctor suit. Maybe she was HIV-positive, maybe she wasn't. You'd think she'd at least get a second opinion." - Mysterio

I thought that part was well written by Smith and made a lot of sense for Mysterio to prey on both Karen's and Matt's emotions like that. Master of illusion. Even has readers fooled to this day.

Anyhow, I just wanted to express this. I come across this a lot when discussing GD with friends. People seem to believe that Karen did, in fact, have aids in this story.



C.
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rgj
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete is absolutely right.

I feel that Nocenti was brilliant and original. Everyone here is in awe (justifiably so) of Bendis's long "outing" arc. Well, Ann's arcs also had one theme: Matt coming to terms as both man of the law and vigilante. It was about Matt trying to understand his own use of violence to stop violence. Was he just a hypocrite or was there, truly, something more noble in his actions. His journey took him away from Hell's Kitchen to Hell itself. And, then threre is the Blind Boxer Saga. As james castle said, in Born Again Miller showed us that Matt was a hero when he wasn't Daredevil. In Blind Boxer Nocenti showed us that Matt was a hero when Matt wasn't . . . Matt. See, any writer who doesn't understand Matt would have thought, *cool, this memory loss gives me a chance to write DD as a criminal, since he doesn't remember who he is*, but Nocenti knows the essence of Matt. Matt, with amnesia and all, couldn't do what Nyla wanted him to do because inside Matt there is a moral barometer that even memory loss can not eclipse. Great stuff by Nocenti. Miller showed us that at Matt's core he is a fighter. Nocenti showed us that at Matt's core he is a "good man." Those two things are at his core. And, nothing he loses can ever take those things away. He fights the good fight.

rgj
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
Forrest wrote:
Nocenti: 4.5 - Matt's mental breakdown upon returning to NYC was a bit much. Also, while she pulled it of 90% off the time, sometimes her political views came across as really trendy and awkward.)


You make some astute points Forrest. I'm in agreement with a lot of what you say. But as for the above points regarding Nocenti, in what way were her political views 'trendy' and 'awkward'?


I should mention that Nocenti is an absolutely brilliant writer. I enjoy her DD work more than Miller's. I was simply giving a reason why she's not a straight up 5 star writing, in my current opinion.

I would say 'trendy' in that I could almost guess which political topics Nocenti would bring up because they were the trendy "liberal" topics of the day. Usually, Nocenti's politics played very well into DD stories when it related to poverty, corporate injustice (remember, Matt's lawyer), etc. However, at other times, she seemed to be trying too hard to fit a political statement in at the expense of the story (i.e. Bullet's kid). While she usually wrote political elements into her stories very well, Nocenti's writing often seemed to use politics as a schtick. At times like Bullet's kid, it seemed to be more of a fashion/trendy angle than a story telling angle.

This follows into the 'awkward' angle. When I'm reading a story and it seems like the DD story has stopped completely at the expense of a political statement, it's awkward.

P.S. Chichester had some absolutely ridiculous lines in FFG where I couldn't tell if he was trying to write the character or if he was simply ranting because Clinton was in the White House. Razz
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