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Brubaker's DD vision
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur. All-Star Batman features phenomenal artwork, no doubt. But the quality of writing - ! Batman's jargon - ! Miller, it appears, is imbibing excessive amounts of alcohol at the moment.
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
I don't think Matt has a hope in Hell in getting elected as DA. Before Out, I think it could have happened, but now, no way. The city would not want want the unwanted media attention having Matt as a DA would bring, I mean now he is behind bars, facing charges and disbarment, its a little hard to go from that to being Da. Plus DD has broken the law many times (suing the Globe for printing a true story is fraud and trying to break into the lawyer's office to get Murdock Papers was illegal.) Unless there is a major change in DD's status, I can't see him getting elected as DA and that's not even factoring in the anti super hero feelings amongst the public because of Civil war.

Also the super villain stuff is on topic, one direction Brubaker can go is to have more super villains in the title (he did say there would be more action and swashbuckling). I mean something like Brubaker's Gotham Central was gritty and down to earth, but it had super villains as well and handled them in a realstic manner. Besides it make sense that a lot of super villains would go after DD after "Out" and I doubt any of the psycho villains would be too scared of him to try it. Now during Civil war a certain super hero revealed his secret ID and as a cover for an upcomming Civil War issue shows, said hero was gang jumped by a whole bunch of villains, realstically that's what should have happened to DD.


You make a very good argument on both points.

Matt being elected into office came up after the developments of "Out" in the opening stanza of "The Murdock Papers". Sure, he would be a controversial candidate, to say the least. But he has become a symbol for the people. His poularity had soared despite the whirlwind that has circled around him. You are right, though. It is quite problematic that he is in prison. My reasoning is that the court, and the people, will find there is a vandetta against Matt Murdock (which there is) and that may help rally the people. And there is the fact that Matt has not been convicted of anything. He is being held in prison as he faces trial. That's all. People have already judged and convicted him for being Daredevil. They had played the proverbial Judge, Jury and Executioner. But the truth of the matter is Matt Murdock has not been found guilty of anything. He is a wildcard. He has been through most of his life. And he would be, again, on the voter's ticket.

Still, you bring up the very valid point of the threat of Matt Murdock being disbarred, based on the ruling of the court in his case. And that would most certainly wipe out any chance, whatsoever. But it would also wipew out any chance of "normalcy", either. He would not be permitted to practice as a lawyer at any level. His conviction in the case against him would utterly disrupt Matt Murdock's world. Even more so than it already is with the current developments.

I have not cultured myself in the "Civil War" mini-series, so I can't say how the ripple affects, if there would be any, would affect Matt Murdock and the rest of the Marvel Universe (although, my money is on the fact that no real consequences would be suffered from "Civil War", as much as the media hype machine wants you to believe otherwise. Has there been any REAL character-altering consequences from the two Secret Wars or Infinity Gaunlet, Infinity War and the like? How about "Secret War", which, let's be honest, was a profound waist of time). But, for argument's sake let's say the developments of "Civil War" are profound and it affects Matt Murdock, as it does with all others in the Marvel Universe. Let's pretend that all superhero folk are greatly handicapped by the legal developments. Matt, like the Fantastic Four and (to some extent) the Avengers, would hang his hat on his popularity with the people. The people, esspecially those in Hell's Kitchen, would (continue to) feel a profound connection to their "hero". He will continue be a defiant symbol to the people.

I may be wrong, but I think Matt Murdock's popularity with the people is his trump card.

On the topic of supervillains ganging up on Matt Murdock. Well, it happened in "Hardcore", although the overall experience of that left me very unimpressed. I anticipated this "royal rumble" and what we got was Typhoid May being bitch-slapped by Jessica, Matt Murdock demonstrating he could "stay within the lines" as he carved up Bullseye's forehead and Wilson Fisk got ran over by a car with ablind guy behind the wheel. It was lame!!

The truth is, yeah, super villians would gang up on Daredevil. We should be treated to a "Long Halloween" in Hell's Kitchen. But, if you look at it, the villains who are incarserated are doing just that in the cold confines of Rykers, lest we forget.

It is no secret that Daredevil yarns are at their best when it is steeped in pulp noir. Daredevil never struck me as a stereotypical "superhero". Most of his battles demonstrate him locked against the beast of organized crime, Wilson Fisk or no Wilson Fisk.

But you are 100%, without a doubt, right about one thing. Ed Brubaker has stated in the past that he is going to bring back the swashbuckling. So that pretty much makes all my points moot.

Still, that does not discount the fact that I, personally, would like to see Matt Murdock elected into office as the symbolic "people's champion", fight organized crime from another front and use his transcendance into office (District Attourney or not) to rebuild his personal and spiritual self, in the aftermath of facing some really daunting obsticles.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like that idea, fox, but I don't want to see it happen with post-"Out" DD. There's just too many holes in the story, unless Matt stops being DD.

Ideally, in my dreams, what would I like to see? Ultimate Matt Murdock become DA or Mayor, in issues written by Stan Lee and drawn by either Jim Lee or Gene Colan! Very Happy
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:


You make a very good argument on both points.

Matt being elected into office came up after the developments of "Out" in the opening stanza of "The Murdock Papers". Sure, he would be a controversial candidate, to say the least. But he has become a symbol for the people. His poularity had soared despite the whirlwind that has circled around him. You are right, though. It is quite problematic that he is in prison. My reasoning is that the court, and the people, will find there is a vandetta against Matt Murdock (which there is) and that may help rally the people. And there is the fact that Matt has not been convicted of anything. He is being held in prison as he faces trial. That's all. People have already judged and convicted him for being Daredevil. They had played the proverbial Judge, Jury and Executioner. But the truth of the matter is Matt Murdock has not been found guilty of anything. He is a wildcard. He has been through most of his life. And he would be, again, on the voter's ticket.

Still, you bring up the very valid point of the threat of Matt Murdock being disbarred, based on the ruling of the court in his case. And that would most certainly wipe out any chance, whatsoever. But it would also wipew out any chance of "normalcy", either. He would not be permitted to practice as a lawyer at any level. His conviction in the case against him would utterly disrupt Matt Murdock's world. Even more so than it already is with the current developments.

I have not cultured myself in the "Civil War" mini-series, so I can't say how the ripple affects, if there would be any, would affect Matt Murdock and the rest of the Marvel Universe (although, my money is on the fact that no real consequences would be suffered from "Civil War", as much as the media hype machine wants you to believe otherwise. Has there been any REAL character-altering consequences from the two Secret Wars or Infinity Gaunlet, Infinity War and the like? How about "Secret War", which, let's be honest, was a profound waist of time). But, for argument's sake let's say the developments of "Civil War" are profound and it affects Matt Murdock, as it does with all others in the Marvel Universe. Let's pretend that all superhero folk are greatly handicapped by the legal developments. Matt, like the Fantastic Four and (to some extent) the Avengers, would hang his hat on his popularity with the people. The people, esspecially those in Hell's Kitchen, would (continue to) feel a profound connection to their "hero". He will continue be a defiant symbol to the people.

I may be wrong, but I think Matt Murdock's popularity with the people is his trump card.

On the topic of supervillains ganging up on Matt Murdock. Well, it happened in "Hardcore", although the overall experience of that left me very unimpressed. I anticipated this "royal rumble" and what we got was Typhoid May being bitch-slapped by Jessica, Matt Murdock demonstrating he could "stay within the lines" as he carved up Bullseye's forehead and Wilson Fisk got ran over by a car with ablind guy behind the wheel. It was lame!!

The truth is, yeah, super villians would gang up on Daredevil. We should be treated to a "Long Halloween" in Hell's Kitchen. But, if you look at it, the villains who are incarserated are doing just that in the cold confines of Rykers, lest we forget.

It is no secret that Daredevil yarns are at their best when it is steeped in pulp noir. Daredevil never struck me as a stereotypical "superhero". Most of his battles demonstrate him locked against the beast of organized crime, Wilson Fisk or no Wilson Fisk.

But you are 100%, without a doubt, right about one thing. Ed Brubaker has stated in the past that he is going to bring back the swashbuckling. So that pretty much makes all my points moot.

Still, that does not discount the fact that I, personally, would like to see Matt Murdock elected into office as the symbolic "people's champion", fight organized crime from another front and use his transcendance into office (District Attourney or not) to rebuild his personal and spiritual self, in the aftermath of facing some really daunting obsticles.


To deal with your points I will say this:

The events of Civil war has left the public with negative attitudes towards all super heroes, even really popular ones like the FF have been met with scorn by the public in light of the events of civil war, so DD's popularity with the people is gone at this point.

Unless Matt can completely clear himself the charges, the people he would run against could always cast doubt on his campaign. Again Matt becomming the DA is not a bad idea, but is not feasible at this point, it would take a major shift in DD's status to become DD without seeming total silly.

Now about the villains issue, I really don't think your opinion on "Hardcore" is universal, I liked it and I believe many others on this board did too. However it wasn't really a team up, Kingpin was just throwing T-Mary and Bulls at DD to keep him distracted, he didn't even hire T-Mary and Bulls at the same. Also Hardcore feature the same villains we see over and over again: Kingpin, Bullseye and one of psycho ex girlfriends (Typhoid Mary). Now I'm not saying those villains are bad, but we have been having the same trio of villains, over and over again for the past 20 years, Bullseye and Kingpin in particular are facing the threat of becoming over exposed. Why can't some other villains gang up and take a whack at Matt?

Again what is wrong with a "Long Halloween" type story for DD, call me old school, but I love those kind of stories where a hero has fight a ton of villains at the same time. Also it doesn't matter if some of the villains are in prison, prsons in comics are useless, the villains can always escape. Besides I don't see a problem with DD fighting super villains now and again, DD's maion enemy will always be organized crime, but having a super villain in now and again could be fun too, mix it up a bit, give DD a different type story now and again. I mean bendis run was really pulp and it still featured super villains now and again.

Plus it would make sense that all these super villainsd would comming out the works. Kingpin was stabilizing force in NYC, he was able to keep these freaks in line, when Matt became the Kingpin he became the stabilizing force. However with both of them in jail, there is nothing to stop freaks like Purple man, Mr. Fear, Mr. Hyde, Bushwacker, etc in line and they can do as they please and tear Hell's Kitchen apart well they are at it. When DD gets out he should dealing with the power vaccum and showing these freaks who is boss.
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
The events of Civil war has left the public with negative attitudes towards all super heroes, even really popular ones like the FF have been met with scorn by the public in light of the events of civil war, so DD's popularity with the people is gone at this point.

Unless Matt can completely clear himself the charges, the people he would run against could always cast doubt on his campaign. Again Matt becomming the DA is not a bad idea, but is not feasible at this point, it would take a major shift in DD's status to become DD without seeming total silly.

...what is wrong with a "Long Halloween" type story for DD, call me old school, but I love those kind of stories where a hero has fight a ton of villains at the same time. Also it doesn't matter if some of the villains are in prison, prsons in comics are useless, the villains can always escape. Besides I don't see a problem with DD fighting super villains now and again, DD's maion enemy will always be organized crime, but having a super villain in now and again could be fun too, mix it up a bit, give DD a different type story now and again. I mean bendis run was really pulp and it still featured super villains now and again.

Plus it would make sense that all these super villainsd would comming out the works. Kingpin was stabilizing force in NYC, he was able to keep these freaks in line, when Matt became the Kingpin he became the stabilizing force. However with both of them in jail, there is nothing to stop freaks like Purple man, Mr. Fear, Mr. Hyde, Bushwacker, etc in line and they can do as they please and tear Hell's Kitchen apart well they are at it. When DD gets out he should dealing with the power vaccum and showing these freaks who is boss.


Very valid points.

In my previous post I did not mean to underscore and demean Jeff Loeb and Tim Sale's work on "The Long Halloween". Quite the opposite, actually. They are a great creative team and have done some breath-taking work, "The Long Halloween" included. I'm not sold on the concept of having multiple villains in a singular story. The creative team is compromised by having too many characters and not enough "screen time" and the concept comes off as being silly. But Jeff Loeb made it work!

I agree with you, whole-heartedly, that it would be logical for a group of Daredevil villains to team-up. But for me that is a dangerous line to walk. For me, maybe to the contrary of other opinions on this board, that was why "Hardcore" did not work. It came off as silly. Where as, in comparison, the Yazuka ambush was better portrayed.

Another valid point you made is the over-exposure of Wilson Fisk and Bullseye. The thing is these characters are the only ones that "proved themselves" on the page. I think a lot has to do with the fact that the other characters haven't been given ample "screen time" to prove themselves. For example, I think the Mister Fear character can be very interesting, but has come off as being excruciatingly miserable in each and every incarnation.

Again, I retort that Daredevil is not the typical "superhero" and that extensive wrestling matches with supervillains. For me, it's like putting Matt Murdock in an intergalactic epic with the Silver Surfer. Something is amiss. That is not to say that battles with villains, here and there, would not be welcome; and, like you had stated, mix things up a bit. But Daredevil is not all about busting superhero in the chops. His character is much deeper than that.

You still can't discount the fact that, theoretically, there are super villains (albeit, out of costume) and other criminals, teaming up to take out Matt Murdock in a very captivating yarn that Ed Brubaker is currently putting together. In my mind, this is, in the world of Matt Murdock, the "super villain" team-up against him. But I digress...

All things aside, if there is a writer that can bridge the pulp noir and the swashbuckling superheroic seamlessly, it is one mister Ed Brubaker!
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:


Very valid points.

In my previous post I did not mean to underscore and demean Jeff Loeb and Tim Sale's work on "The Long Halloween". Quite the opposite, actually. They are a great creative team and have done some breath-taking work, "The Long Halloween" included. I'm not sold on the concept of having multiple villains in a singular story. The creative team is compromised by having too many characters and not enough "screen time" and the concept comes off as being silly. But Jeff Loeb made it work!

I agree with you, whole-heartedly, that it would be logical for a group of Daredevil villains to team-up. But for me that is a dangerous line to walk. For me, maybe to the contrary of other opinions on this board, that was why "Hardcore" did not work. It came off as silly. Where as, in comparison, the Yazuka ambush was better portrayed.

Another valid point you made is the over-exposure of Wilson Fisk and Bullseye. The thing is these characters are the only ones that "proved themselves" on the page. I think a lot has to do with the fact that the other characters haven't been given ample "screen time" to prove themselves. For example, I think the Mister Fear character can be very interesting, but has come off as being excruciatingly miserable in each and every incarnation.

Again, I retort that Daredevil is not the typical "superhero" and that extensive wrestling matches with supervillains. For me, it's like putting Matt Murdock in an intergalactic epic with the Silver Surfer. Something is amiss. That is not to say that battles with villains, here and there, would not be welcome; and, like you had stated, mix things up a bit. But Daredevil is not all about busting superhero in the chops. His character is much deeper than that.

You still can't discount the fact that, theoretically, there are super villains (albeit, out of costume) and other criminals, teaming up to take out Matt Murdock in a very captivating yarn that Ed Brubaker is currently putting together. In my mind, this is, in the world of Matt Murdock, the "super villain" team-up against him. But I digress...

All things aside, if there is a writer that can bridge the pulp noir and the swashbuckling superheroic seamlessly, it is one mister Ed Brubaker!


Again I don't see how super villains and pulp books are mutually exclusive, it all depends on it is handled. DD is suppoed to be a pulp book right and yet Bullseye shows up all the time and he is a super villain, he has a costume and super abilities. The only difference is he acts like a real world psychopath, would makes he scarey, a real world psychopath with super abilities is chilling.

Lets like a another DD villain and another pulp book. Alias was a pulp book, which focused on real down to Earth stories, but it had a super villain, the previously goofy Purple Man. This version of Purple Man was chilling because he was a rapist and a serial killer, with the dangerous power of all, the ability to control minds. That is why he worked in a pulp book. I thjink the post Alias Purple Man would work well in the post Miller DD world. This also proves that many of the "lame" DD villains can become really interesting and dangerous if taken seriously and given the right writer.

Let's not forget, Bullseye and Kingpin were kinda lame before Miller revamped them. Of course that will not work all the time, they tried using a psychopath Stilt-Man in the 2001 Spidey/DD team up and he came off as kinda silly. But look at say Mr. Hyde, he is supposed to be evil incarnate, but always comes off as a thug or goof, imagine how dangerous he would if he was written in a serious manner.

Again just because super villains show up in a pulp book doesn't mean they have to act like "Dick Dastardly". What's more scarey than psychopaths with super human abilitites? Also threats to justice come in many forms, to a lone victim, one lone psychopath can be just as dangerous organized crime, DD should protect people from all types of crime, from the power structures of organized crime to dangers of a lone psychopath stalking the streets, especially if said lone psychopath has super human abilities.

Again with hardcore, I liked it, but it wasn't a real "Super villain team up". Kingpin recruited T-Mary and Bulls, seperately, they really had no contact with eachother and didn't really coordinate their attacks on DD. Now lets assume DD had to deal with a bunch of these guys at once say for example: Typhoid Mary, Mr. Fear, Mr. Hyde, Bushwacker, Owl, etc or anyother combo of dangerous psycho villains. That would be one of DD's greatest challenges, him being on the ropes, being stalked up these guys, using wits to survive then he lures them into a building and cuts the power. He can see them, but they can't see him, I think it would be a cool story.
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

Again I don't see how super villains and pulp books are mutually exclusive, it all depends on it is handled. DD is suppoed to be a pulp book right and yet Bullseye shows up all the time and he is a super villain, he has a costume and super abilities. The only difference is he acts like a real world psychopath, would makes he scarey, a real world psychopath with super abilities is chilling.

Lets like a another DD villain and another pulp book. Alias was a pulp book, which focused on real down to Earth stories, but it had a super villain, the previously goofy Purple Man. This version of Purple Man was chilling because he was a rapist and a serial killer, with the dangerous power of all, the ability to control minds. That is why he worked in a pulp book. I thjink the post Alias Purple Man would work well in the post Miller DD world. This also proves that many of the "lame" DD villains can become really interesting and dangerous if taken seriously and given the right writer.

Let's not forget, Bullseye and Kingpin were kinda lame before Miller revamped them. Of course that will not work all the time, they tried using a psychopath Stilt-Man in the 2001 Spidey/DD team up and he came off as kinda silly. But look at say Mr. Hyde, he is supposed to be evil incarnate, but always comes off as a thug or goof, imagine how dangerous he would if he was written in a serious manner.

Again just because super villains show up in a pulp book doesn't mean they have to act like "Dick Dastardly". What's more scarey than psychopaths with super human abilitites? Also threats to justice come in many forms, to a lone victim, one lone psychopath can be just as dangerous organized crime, DD should protect people from all types of crime, from the power structures of organized crime to dangers of a lone psychopath stalking the streets, especially if said lone psychopath has super human abilities.

Again with hardcore, I liked it, but it wasn't a real "Super villain team up". Kingpin recruited T-Mary and Bulls, seperately, they really had no contact with eachother and didn't really coordinate their attacks on DD. Now lets assume DD had to deal with a bunch of these guys at once say for example: Typhoid Mary, Mr. Fear, Mr. Hyde, Bushwacker, Owl, etc or anyother combo of dangerous psycho villains. That would be one of DD's greatest challenges, him being on the ropes, being stalked up these guys, using wits to survive then he lures them into a building and cuts the power. He can see them, but they can't see him, I think it would be a cool story.


I don't know how you feel about this, Master Meglomaniac, but this is a great exchange / debate on this topic. And, again, you make very valid points.

I don't feel Daredevil is a stereotypical superhero. I mean, yes, he wears a crimson suit and he fights to protect the people. But his world, in costume or out, is a gritty one. And a more realistic one than, say, the Fantastic Four. The Daredevil mythology is one rooted in the atmospheric portrayal of street-level vigilance. It is a more mature mythology that has absorbed some very complex concepts that other comic book mythologies may not have stood up under. It delves into spirituality, morality, humanity, humility. Those are some very vast concepts. And it is those concepts and the creative interpretation of those concepts rooted in Matt Murdock's internal landscape and the external urban landscape of Hell's Kitchen. All this the difference when compared to, pretty much, any other comic book mythology. There is deeper metaphor.

Not only that, these stories are about the man behind the mask. The only other Marvel Comic that follows this, I feel, would be Spider-Man and maybe The Hulk. More often than not, though, it is the clothes that make the man in this genre and that is a tired (and tiring) concept that has run itself out.

To elaborate, a bit more, on my previous points on having a supervillain / DD gangbang; the idea of having 7-10 supervillains taking on one singular superhero leaves a number of traps and hurdles for a creative team to propel themselves past. And, frankly, very few creative teams have been able to conjure a satisfying yarn from this particular devise. Firstly, it would be a glorified cameo / guest appearance for each villain. As I said before, there simply isn't enough "screen time" for each individual villain. In order to delve into each villain and their character and motivations, you are then losing "screen time" for the hero, which people are shelling out their sheckles to ultimately see. You are compromising one character for another. Then, times that by "x" amount of villains participating in the gangbang. It becomes very problematic. In the end, the reader / audience feel cheated because there's, painfully, only echoes or shadows of the true character, anyway. More often than not, stories that are weaved within this particular devise usually fall apart.

Now, that's not to say it doesn't work. There are rare pieces of work that transcend the problems and challenges of this comic book device. I'll bring in "The Long Halloween", which we've discussed in past posts on this thread. It was very well done. It was ambitious. But the real trick of "The Long Halloween" was the story was allowed to breathe. It took place over 13, or so, issues; where as other creative teams would not have the attention-span and creative stamina to see a tale, of that scope, through. Secondly, the creative team must make decisions to pick their spots and have the balls to take specific relegate them to the back. But when their "screen time" does come, no matter if it's for a couple of panels or a couple of pages, their moment has to be worthy of the character. That's not to say, bombastic and iconic (many stories have crumbled under the creative team's temptation to magnify each and every character, compressed within the, already, conveluted time they appear). The moments, no matter how large, should unearth insights into that specific character. Sometimes a whisper can be a scream.

Jeff Loeb and Tim Sale balanced this incredibly well. It takes a great creative eye to truly pull this off.

Theae are some of the reasons that I am not huge fans of a large cast of villains, or other characters, fighting the hero. Because it always comes down to all of them ravaging for "screen time". And the work, more often than not, comes away so frustratingly muddled.

Now, I agree with you. Killgrave, the Purple Man was powerfully and chillingly portrayed in "Alias". And I agree with you, whole-heartedly, that villains being cast in a new light (like Purple Man in "Alias"), would be a revolution to a rather bland rogue's gallery. And if there is a writer that can accomplish this feat, it would be Ed Brubaker. As you pointed out, Wilson Fisk was a shabby, silly facsimile of a villain, prior to Frank Miller entering the stage.

Now, in relation to Bullseye and Wilson Fisk. It doesn't bother me that they are the stereotypical supervillains that frequently visit / invade Mat Murdock's world. They have added to the mythology. But they are arguably "overplayed". And I echo your sentiments that added characters, portrayed in a challenging new light if the "supervillain" is to be used, that need to be added in the mix.

The truth is we are asking more from our villains, and with that, asking even more from our heroes.
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may, very well, just be an after-thought, but it just occured to me as to why "The Long Halloween" succeeded where countless other "supervillain" gang-up gimmicks failed. "The Long Halloween", at it's core, was never about all these villains coming together to beat the hell out of Batman. Each character was placed in that wandering, epic yarn to play off the larger concept. Which was a murder mystery, and the haunting question of who is "Holiday".

Compare that with, say, ANY incarnation of the Sinister Six.

Ugh! There is absolutely no comparison.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:


I don't know how you feel about this, Master Meglomaniac, but this is a great exchange / debate on this topic. And, again, you make very valid points.

I don't feel Daredevil is a stereotypical superhero. I mean, yes, he wears a crimson suit and he fights to protect the people. But his world, in costume or out, is a gritty one. And a more realistic one than, say, the Fantastic Four. The Daredevil mythology is one rooted in the atmospheric portrayal of street-level vigilance. It is a more mature mythology that has absorbed some very complex concepts that other comic book mythologies may not have stood up under. It delves into spirituality, morality, humanity, humility. Those are some very vast concepts. And it is those concepts and the creative interpretation of those concepts rooted in Matt Murdock's internal landscape and the external urban landscape of Hell's Kitchen. All this the difference when compared to, pretty much, any other comic book mythology. There is deeper metaphor.

Not only that, these stories are about the man behind the mask. The only other Marvel Comic that follows this, I feel, would be Spider-Man and maybe The Hulk. More often than not, though, it is the clothes that make the man in this genre and that is a tired (and tiring) concept that has run itself out.

To elaborate, a bit more, on my previous points on having a supervillain / DD gangbang; the idea of having 7-10 supervillains taking on one singular superhero leaves a number of traps and hurdles for a creative team to propel themselves past. And, frankly, very few creative teams have been able to conjure a satisfying yarn from this particular devise. Firstly, it would be a glorified cameo / guest appearance for each villain. As I said before, there simply isn't enough "screen time" for each individual villain. In order to delve into each villain and their character and motivations, you are then losing "screen time" for the hero, which people are shelling out their sheckles to ultimately see. You are compromising one character for another. Then, times that by "x" amount of villains participating in the gangbang. It becomes very problematic. In the end, the reader / audience feel cheated because there's, painfully, only echoes or shadows of the true character, anyway. More often than not, stories that are weaved within this particular devise usually fall apart.

Now, that's not to say it doesn't work. There are rare pieces of work that transcend the problems and challenges of this comic book device. I'll bring in "The Long Halloween", which we've discussed in past posts on this thread. It was very well done. It was ambitious. But the real trick of "The Long Halloween" was the story was allowed to breathe. It took place over 13, or so, issues; where as other creative teams would not have the attention-span and creative stamina to see a tale, of that scope, through. Secondly, the creative team must make decisions to pick their spots and have the balls to take specific relegate them to the back. But when their "screen time" does come, no matter if it's for a couple of panels or a couple of pages, their moment has to be worthy of the character. That's not to say, bombastic and iconic (many stories have crumbled under the creative team's temptation to magnify each and every character, compressed within the, already, conveluted time they appear). The moments, no matter how large, should unearth insights into that specific character. Sometimes a whisper can be a scream.

Jeff Loeb and Tim Sale balanced this incredibly well. It takes a great creative eye to truly pull this off.

Theae are some of the reasons that I am not huge fans of a large cast of villains, or other characters, fighting the hero. Because it always comes down to all of them ravaging for "screen time". And the work, more often than not, comes away so frustratingly muddled.

Now, I agree with you. Killgrave, the Purple Man was powerfully and chillingly portrayed in "Alias". And I agree with you, whole-heartedly, that villains being cast in a new light (like Purple Man in "Alias"), would be a revolution to a rather bland rogue's gallery. And if there is a writer that can accomplish this feat, it would be Ed Brubaker. As you pointed out, Wilson Fisk was a shabby, silly facsimile of a villain, prior to Frank Miller entering the stage.

Now, in relation to Bullseye and Wilson Fisk. It doesn't bother me that they are the stereotypical supervillains that frequently visit / invade Mat Murdock's world. They have added to the mythology. But they are arguably "overplayed". And I echo your sentiments that added characters, portrayed in a challenging new light if the "supervillain" is to be used, that need to be added in the mix.

The truth is we are asking more from our villains, and with that, asking even more from our heroes.


I think reading too much into this, not every comic book story has to be deep, dark and depressing. Look at the first time Spidey fought the Sinister Six in the 60s, that wasn't a deep story, you didn't get any major insights into the villains psyche, but it was a fun story.

I would rather see DD fight a bunch of villains for once, rather than someone just recyling Miller's old ideas: "lets have Bullseye kill DD's girlfriend" or "lets give DD a psycho girlfriend" or "let's destroy Murdock's life with Born again rip off". I mean dark stories are good, but you can have so times of Matt's life being destroyed and him having mental break down before it becomes depressing and sad.

I mean let's giving a him victory and him beating a bunch of super villains is one hell of victory. Tale a kinda fun story just so people can have a break from the dark and depressing stuff. That doesn't mean it has to be a completely silly story, it still be told with modern story telling techiques and be a thriling taler of DD using his wits to defeat superior odds, but it doesn't have be uber dark and serious to be a good story. Plus as I said before it is just logical that a bunch villains would gang jump him after Out.

Now about super villains and DD in general. Again I don't see howe you can say DD is out of place fighting super villains, when he fights Bullseye all the time, who is for all intents and purposes, a super villain. You seem to be saying that Bullseye is exempt because he adds to mythos, but perhaps other villains can add to the mythos as well if they were given a chance. Look at Brubaker's other famous comic book run in a pulp comic Gotham Central, it explore how the actions of super criminals like Joker and the Mad Hatter affected the regular person in Gotham. Their victims arer seen as real people, rather than just faceless fodder.

Imagine if Brubaker applied something like that in DD, imagine how tricky it would be to prove that Purple Man's use of mind control powers actually consitutes rape in a court of law, which has to prove guilt beyond a shadow of doubt, imagine the suffering he can inflict on his victims by making them doubt their actions, twisting things in order to make his ex pawns believe that they wanted to do all the sick acts they committed while under his control. DD should oppose that type as evil as well as organized crime, because it doesn't really matter to an individual if they have victimized by an organized crime structure or just a lone psychopath, either way an injustice has been commit against them and DD should try to right all injustices. That's why I think super villains can work in Daredevil, they just have to be handled in the correct manner.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:
This may, very well, just be an after-thought, but it just occured to me as to why "The Long Halloween" succeeded where countless other "supervillain" gang-up gimmicks failed. "The Long Halloween", at it's core, was never about all these villains coming together to beat the hell out of Batman. Each character was placed in that wandering, epic yarn to play off the larger concept. Which was a murder mystery, and the haunting question of who is "Holiday".

Compare that with, say, ANY incarnation of the Sinister Six.

Ugh! There is absolutely no comparison.


Come on, you don't think the time Spidey fought the Sinister Six in the 60s wasn't a fun story? Blasphemy! By the way, you should read the Sinister Six novels by Adam Troy Castro, that told a really engaging super villain team story, which can show you just how nasty a bunch super villains teaming can be.

Anyway, you what I always thought would be a cool idea for a mini, DD: Red with Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale that would be a sequel to DD: Yellow, that would involve DD fighting his rogues gallery at the same time. Perhaps DD: Red can be set in the missing year with DD having to defend is land from these guys.

In any event, I thought Long Holloween was okay but the ending was too open ended, they didn't really answer the mystery, they left it open so any of the three suspects could have been Holiday. Mysteries should direct and final endings, that's why I liked Dark Victory more, it answered exactly who the hangman was at the ned, he didn't pussy foot around the answer that time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked "Hush" much more than "Long Halloween," even despite my preference of Jim Lee's art (which is not to say that Sale's isn't BRILLIANT!). Just a thought.

I wanted to say that Hush is another example of a multiple super villians in a story that works very well. I love the idea of all these bad asses getting played by an even bigger bad ass! It's a great concept and I think it worked well.

I'd love to see DD fight off tons of villians at once, including popular Marvel villians who he's never fought before. I think it can work and work well, especially with Brubaker as the scribe. (I really liked the Giant Sized DD by the way. Very Happy)

(Heck, I think Brubaker could pull off a DD-Rogue-Magneto-Wolvie love rectangle combined with a Young Avengers cross-over! The man is a genius! Razz)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
I liked "Hush" much more than "Long Halloween," even despite my preference of Jim Lee's art (which is not to say that Sale's isn't BRILLIANT!). Just a thought.

I wanted to say that Hush is another example of a multiple super villians in a story that works very well. I love the idea of all these bad asses getting played by an even bigger bad ass! It's a great concept and I think it worked well.

I'd love to see DD fight off tons of villians at once, including popular Marvel villians who he's never fought before. I think it can work and work well, especially with Brubaker as the scribe. (I really liked the Giant Sized DD by the way. Very Happy)

(Heck, I think Brubaker could pull off a DD-Rogue-Magneto-Wolvie love rectangle combined with a Young Avengers cross-over! The man is a genius! Razz)



Which super villains should DD fight that has never fought before? Not more Spidey villains, I'm kinda sick of DD borrowing Spidey villains.

Anyway I think the main focus should be building up his own rogues gallery, though a few outside villains couldn't hurt though.

What villains should be included? None of the goofy ones of course (Stilt-Man, Leap-Frog, Matador) they have reformed and it is better they stay reformed. But many of DD's other villains are dangerous besides the usual suspects: Kingpin and Bullseye, a lot of his B List villains can be dangerous: Purple Man, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Fear, Typhoid Mary, Bushwacker, etc. However I doubt all of those villains could work together (I never thought of Bullseye as a team player, but a recent comic cover has changed my mind on that subject, more on that in another thread, but PM will just mind control everyone).

However Typhoid Mary has formed anti DD team before, Bushwacker was a member of said team, Mr. Hyde was a member of the MoE and I bet Mr. Fear wouldn't have a problem joining joining an anti DD team, so they could be in team and it looks like Bullseye is now a team player, so maybe even he could be a member. But should there be a coherent team or should some bigwig just bribe or manuliplate a bunch of DD villains to attack him around thge same time? How should it be handled and who would you want on the team?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I don't know. I'm not saying the DD ongoing should emulate a past story such as Hush or Long Halloween. However, if I would draw a comparison to a past story, I'd say that DD is perfectly lined up for a Knightfall story in the following sense:

Knightfall: All the Arkham Asylum prisoners are simultaneously released and Batman has to deal with them all at once, not because they're teamed up or connected in some way, but just because they were all freed at the same time and they're celebrating with crime.

DD: DD's ID is pretty much out there, now it's time for villians of all shapes and sizes to go nuts and attack Matt Murdock, his life, his friends, etc. I don't see an organized attack, but just a consequence of DD' ID being compromised.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
...I don't know. I'm not saying the DD ongoing should emulate a past story such as Hush or Long Halloween. However, if I would draw a comparison to a past story, I'd say that DD is perfectly lined up for a Knightfall story in the following sense:

Knightfall: All the Arkham Asylum prisoners are simultaneously released and Batman has to deal with them all at once, not because they're teamed up or connected in some way, but just because they were all freed at the same time and they're celebrating with crime.

DD: DD's ID is pretty much out there, now it's time for villians of all shapes and sizes to go nuts and attack Matt Murdock, his life, his friends, etc. I don't see an organized attack, but just a consequence of DD' ID being compromised.


That's a cool idea, but there needs to be some kind of narrative. In Knightfall Bane released the Arkham freaks so Batman would strech himself thin and be tired and weak after recapturing them and then Bane jumped him and broke his back. There has to be some narrative and some climax were he fights a big baddie who somehow caused is problems or something, it doesn't have to be exactly what I said (fighting a big baddie) but there has to be some kind of climax.

Anyway, which villains would you include? Surely DD will get to face the amazing might of Stilt-Man again. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
Anyway, which villains would you include? Surely DD will get to face the amazing might of Stilt-Man again. Laughing


Honestly, I don't know. As long as the writing is good it could be any crazy villian who's out to look for fame, revenge, etc.

Sure, there should be some resolution, but I'd see it in the form of DD doing something that would scare villians so badly that they really do run off, even the craziest crazies!
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