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Why DID Matt Surrender to the FBI?!
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Stephan
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Joined: 30 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Why DID Matt Surrender to the FBI?! Reply with quote

In DD Vol. #I #44-46, The Jester (a guileful villan at that time) hatches a plan: he frames an unsuspecting DD for murder, igniting a storm of controversy and arousing anti-DD sentiment. What did Matthew Michael Murdock, champion of justice, do? He fled. Later, when DD was taken into custody by the NYPD, he escaped from prison. He bolted. In my estimation, this is precisely what DD would do if confronted with trumped-up charges. The question arises, then: why DID Matt surrender to the FBI recently? He could easily have eluded the authorities. Why did he yield? Surely Matt recognized that he was putting Foggy and Milla in jeopardy (inasmuch as he could no longer safeguard them from his foes). And, as DD Vol. #I #44-46 illustrate, Matt's capitulation is inconsistent with his past behavior. How can we account for this? Unless...he was unwittingly "persuaded" to surrender.
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was already covered in the books.

(1) He surrendered not because he couldn't have escaped, but to prevent the immediate and further escalation of violence outside of Night Nurse's sanctuary.

(2) Before the riots--which rendered the following point moot--he didn't escape, or try to, precisely because doing so would add more proof to the prosecution's case regarding his double identity, escalate his legal troubles, and make him a fugitive in both identities.

The past example you brought up isn't a valid comparison; he was jailed in his Daredevil identity then, and would still have his normal life as Mathew Murdock to fall back on regardless of anything else.
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again. And yet (as subsequent developments demonstrate) Matt's capitulation clearly endangered his loved ones. Foggy was vulnerable precisely because Matt was imprisoned, and this was forseeable. Would Matt knowingly imperil his kith and kin? Never - not under any circumstances, even if he had to contravene the law. The Widow's advice was sound, and Matt ordinarily would have heeded it. Matt's recent behavior (and that of a host of other key characters in this comic) has been both illogical and inconsistent with past depictions. I am of the opinion that Matt would NEVER knowingly allow himself to be apprehended, particularly under these circumstances.
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many other instances come to mind. In the Miller's famed "Man Without Fear" mini, if you recall, Matt inadvertently thrust an innocent woman out of window, and she plummetted to her death (though, as we all know, she did not perish). Did Matt surrender to the authorities and face justice? NO. Matt's actions in #80 are not consistent with past depictions, and this suggests that Killgrave (or a comparable villan) is the culprit. Or...it could be further evidence of Marvel's lack of commitment to continuity.
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
Hi again. And yet (as subsequent developments demonstrate) Matt's capitulation clearly endangered his loved ones. Foggy was vulnerable precisely because Matt was imprisoned, and this was forseeable.



It would be extremely difficult for Matt to "protect" Foggy as a fugitive from the law while trying to remain free to do so, especially given the fact that monitoring Foggy is the first and obvious action the FBI would take.

Furthermore, unlike Milla (who eventually came back anyway, regardless of her safety), Foggy himself refused to leave the country when the Widow offered. Foggy is a grown man who is ultimately responsible for his own decisions, and he chose not to flee for safety.

Additionally, as we saw in the last Bendis story, Matt and Foggy have plenty of superhero friends eager and willing to protect Foggy when they can (as Widow tried, and Luke Cage/Iron Fist accomplished).

However, like Matt himself (especially under these conditions), no one could've guaranteed Foggy's safety 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with 100 percent certainty.
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
In the Miller's famed "Man Without Fear" mini, if you recall, Matt inadvertently thrust an innocent woman out of window, and she plummetted to her death (though, as we all know, she did not perish).



Again, apples and oranges.

(1) Matt was so much younger then, and his sense of morality wasn't as fully developed. It's been shown that, as a more mature adult, he deeply regrets some of the things he did during the pre-Daredevil time period (like killing Larks).

(2) He accidentally thrust the woman out *anonymously*--he was in no danger of being a suspect (especially given his handicap), and "Matt Murdock" was not already being hunted or pursued by the authorities
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, it times past, when Matthew Michael Murdock was a MURDER suspect, he did not surrender to the authorities. But when the FBI pursues him on baseless, ill-considered obstruction charges, he yields?! Utterly absurd. Your arguments are untenable, Bell. Matt's overriding concern in modern times (particularly in the wake of Karen's untimely demise) has been to protect his loved ones from harm. His imprisonment has rendered him powerless to shield Sister Maggie, Milla, and others from the threat posed by his many adversaries. The disclosure of his secret identity already exposed them to danger. By surrendering, Matt excarbated the situation even further!!

Either there is some villan manipulating Matt, or Marvel is once again guilty of poor characterization and storytelling.
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
So, it times past, when Matthew Michael Murdock was a MURDER suspect, he did not surrender to the authorities.



You're again citing an example taking place when Matt was pretty much still in high school (at least in the internal continuity of the story), as an example of how a Matt in his thirties would behave?

Not only was he young, but he had just lost his father, and was then immediately abandoned by Stick after the incident (his other mentor figure).

He wasn't in anything remotely approaching a clear and adult state of mind, and that's not anywhere near how he'd handle the situation as the man he became after donning the costume.

Again, citing the same mini, while he was willing to kill Larks at the end, this was an action he later explicitly regretted as an older and wiser man.

Also, you're again ignoring that he had the freedom of anonymity in that example, while he doesn't in this storyline.



Stephan wrote:

But when the FBI pursues him on baseless, ill-considered obstruction charges, he yields?!


Ill-considered, yes.

But, baseless? Are you kidding? The fact of the matter is he IS Daredevil, and he is breaking the law (and all kinds of ethical guidelines as a lawyer) doing what he's doing.

In the end, that's not why he turned himself in, though. He was unfortanately caught with his pants down, so to speak, and he surrendered to prevent escalating violence and death.



Stephan wrote:
His imprisonment has rendered him powerless to shield Sister Maggie, Milla, and others from the threat posed by his many adversaries.



Once again, you're ignoring

(a) Matt would be way too limited in his ability to protect them as a fugitive from justice, especially given the authorities would use his very loved ones to track and try to capture him; in this context, Matt is only one man who can't be in several places at once

(b) They have superhero friends who have been shown as willing to step in and protect those people when they can; this was seen in the very stories under discussion

(c) His loved ones refused to leave the country (or came back afterwards) in anonymity, which was the only truly certain way of protecting them in the first place; Matt's options after that were much more limited


Continue ignoring all these points if you like, but they're not going anywhere.
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt is haunted by Karen's tragic death. So much so that he suffered yet another mental breakdown. Her death was the principal reason why Matt declared himself "Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen" - he was bound and determined to prevent his loved ones from being jeopardized again. Allowing himself to be incarcerated clearly is not consistent with this aim, nor is it consistent with his past actions. Matt, in fact, has fled from the local constabulary countless times in both his guises (I can recall several other notable instances offhand)!!

Elektra claims that the Murdock Papers exist, when they do not. Matt (who has fled from the law innumerable times before) surrenders to the FBI, endangering Foggy, Sister Maggie, Milla, and others. Becky escorts a hapless Milla to the very prison where Foggy perished. Fisk (who is ordinarily quite canny) assumes that Matt will collaborate with BULLSEYE, the man responsible for Karen's brutal death. Since #76, (or thereabouts) the behavior of the protagonist and the supporting characters has been puzzling. Perhaps Killgrave is the culprit. The alternative? Utter ineptitude on Marvel's part - again.
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
- he was bound and determined to prevent his loved ones from being jeopardized again. -



You are really exaggerating this aspect of Matt's character.

Yes, like any hero, he didn't want his loved ones to get hurt, and, yes, he was determined to protect them *when he could*.

However, once his identity was outed, Matt's loved ones were in potential danger 24/7, and unless Matt was prepared to abandon his personal life completely and gather all of them (against their will) into one location he'd guard for the rest of his life...there was only so much he could do.

Foggy could've been killed at work while Matt wasn't in the office. He could've been killed whenever Matt was taking Milla for a walk, or to the bedroom, or countless other places. Foggy could've been killed while Matt was in costume patrolling other parts of the city. Foggy could've been killed while he was spending time in his own apartment.

This goes for all of Matt's other loved ones, too.

Outside of shipping them out of the country and giving them new identities, there was only so much Matt could do. This goes especially once there was a warrant out for his arrest, and even moreso once he was put in jail.

Matt seemed to understand this.

You, OTOH, do not.



Stephan wrote:

Perhaps Killgrave is the culprit. The alternative? Utter ineptitude on Marvel's part - again.




I know you like the theory you came up with, and it's possible, but it's far from the only plausible reason things happened the way they did.
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MercifulAvatar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he did it to get BENDIS! off the book as quickly as possible.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to ruin everyone's fun by going all form over substance here but there's at least two form related problems with Steve's initial complaint.

First off, while it's easy to make a motivation based complaint (i.e. "why did character x do y?") it is nearly impossible to answer such a complaint. Matt turned himself in for numerous and complex reasons. Reasons that were defined, explored and revisited over and over again through out Bendis' entire arc. So when Steve is like "I demand to know why Matt turned himself in" the only legit answer is "for all the reasons outlined in Bendis' run....go read the run". He seems to be demanding some sort of short, sweet answer; an unreasonable demand given his question.

Second, it's kinda silly to compare stories from different writers. Why did DD run in one instance and not run in another? Maybe because they were different stories.

Steve's set up his questions so that they're by and large unanswerable. Give me a T. Give me a R. Give me an O. And so on.
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JC. I don't agree. What I am suggesting is that there is a possible answer - namely, that Matt is being influenced by a third party (Killgrave, Mysterio or a comparable villan). Matt's principal concerns are safeguarding his kith and kin, and championing Hell's Kitchen. His incarceration endangered his loved ones and ensured that Hell's Kitchen would crumble. Matt Murdock (even if he were unhinged) would never allow this to happen. Unless he is no longer in control of his actions.
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose what I am asserting, JC, is that protecting his family and Hell's Kitchen are the essence of Matthew Michael Murdock. His incarceration imperiled both his family and Hell's Kitchen. It's simply not something he would permit - even if he had to defy the law.
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing (I sound like Columbo now), JC: the law, obviously, is of the utmost importance to Matt Murdock. But does it take priority over his family and the people of Hell's Kitchen? No.
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