Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.


Daredevil Directors Cut
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The Netflix show and other movies
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully admit that I can't bring myself to watch the DC. Mostly (and reasonably, i might add) because, as I understand it, the DC doesn't change anything wrt what was wrong with the movie in the first place. When I first saw the movie I laughed out loud at:

The flaming DD that made no sense.
"What do you want?" - "Justice!"
Ben Affleck's acting.
Horrid, horrid CGI.
Elektra "realizing" that Matt/Daredevil didn't kill her father for no real reason.
Daredevil "learning" that killing people is bad.
The stiff playground fight (that made no sense).
Matt being blinded because he's an idiot as opposed to a hero.
Matt's cane turning into a baton for no reason.
....and a few other things.

As I understand it NONE of these things have changed. I honestly can't bring myself to spend any amount of money to test my theory that no amount of Coolio subplot could make up for the above.

In any event, what amuses me is that the people who defend the DC are the same people who defended the theatrical version when it came out.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so far we got jc and rgj admiting that they haven't seen the DC. Hmmm...

james castle wrote:
In any event, what amuses me is that the people who defend the DC are the same people who defended the theatrical version when it came out.


Well, why can't I see the funny side? Why aren't I laughing? See, it seems to me that its perfectly reasonable for someone who liked the theatrical to love the DC. It's kind of...logical. Even people who hate the theatrical and still have no time for the DC kind of admit that the latter is 'better'.

So what you find amusing is logical, but I'm not sure if its true. I could be missing out a lot of posters here, but being here at the time of original release, I'd say maybe Alice and myself kind of liked parts of the original in one form or the other. Others, maybe Privateer and Forrest (?) disliked the original but like the DC. So what you find amusing is logical, and...kind of not true.

What I find amusing is some peoples lack of logic. While we're on the subject of 'logic', lets get to grips with what we've got here.

First off, we've got a thread about the Daredevil Directors Cut.

And the posters...

1. Those that have seen it and liked it (logical)

2. Those that have seen it and disliked it (logical)

3. Those that haven't seen it but dis it and the people who like it, using the people who don't like it and the things they disliked in the original as some kind of justification for them being in the thread in the first place (illogical, with a twist of obsessive bordering on the completely whacko)

I mean, that's it, really. Following the same lack of logic in other threads could be construed as madness. Picture a new rgj thread in 'off topic' 'I LOVE TEXAS'. extoling the wonders of Texas to anyone who can be bothered to read it. Pete, in a moment of complete and utter boredom, posts a reply.

'Texas is s*%t, rgj', it's so s&%t they'll never make another'

'Really, Pete?' says shocked and stunned rgj, 'What didn't you like about it?' '

'Never been there, pal. But Jim B didn't like it and I thought his post insightful'

'Bah!' I dismiss your negative thoughts on my home state as lacking reason and based on no substansive evidence whatsoever' replies rgj, undoubtedly.

Since its day of release, no topic has split this board moreso than MSJ and his film. But his film remains the DC, its the one that he made, and the theatrical is the version Foster and Fox squeezed out of that film. I'm kind of beyond trying to convince people to 'go see' the DC, because I really don't care if they do or don't. But in any thread that gets called Daredevil Directors Cut, its good to read thoughts, both pro and anti, from people who've actually seen the thing. Because there're the only ones that are valid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to have to disagree with you but disagree I must.

The jist of your little post is: "if you haven't seen the DC you cannot comment on it". Seems logical enough on the surface but it falls apart if you really think about the matter.

Look, there's no escaping the fact that the DC contains huge chunks of the TR version. Wikipedia provides a helpful list of things that were cut out of and things that were added into the TR to create the DC. Quite literally nothing in that list touches on any of the problems I outlined above; problems that go to the very heart of the movie. Almost every major plot point is marred with either some boneheaded reasoning ("hey, look kids, Matt realized murdering people is bad") or blatant plot holes. As I understand it, all of these problems exist in the DC.

Okay, so here's the thing. While I may not be able to say "I saw the DC and it sucked", I can say "I saw the TR and it had (INSERT HUGE PROBLEM HERE) in it. That (HUGE PROBLEM) sucked so much and was so obvious that any movie with that (HUGE PROBLEM) in it sucks". Lo and behold the DC has all of those problems.

It's like this: imagine if I saw Star Wars: The Phantom Menace and I came away and was like "holy crap, Jar Jar Binks and the Young Darth ruined that movie. it sucked due to those two". Then, a few years later say Lucas made another version that was pretty much the same as the original but had a bit more pod racing and maybe a subplot about an Ewok. Surely I would say "well does it still have all the unwatchable Jar Jar, Baby Darth stuff in it?". If so then I can still say it sucks.

As for why the TR/DC loving people amuse me: it's basically due to the fact that I see the whole DC thing as unforgiveably cynical to begin with. MSJ made a bad movie. It was panned into the dust. Then he releases a DC and is like "this is the movie I really wanted to make". It's a cagey move because, again, the DC doesn't take out or fix anything in the TR that led to it getting bad reviews. What it does do, however, is two things. First, it allows people to get around a flood of bad reviews. See, no one really reviews DVDs. Those who do generally review DVD a DVDs. That is, the reviews take into account things like bonus features, etc.. So, when someone points to Rottentomatoes and says "Daredevil was panned" MSJ can say, "no, no, that's the TR". Lucky for him, no such resource exists for straight to DVD releases.

Secondly, the DC allows people (like Pete) to forever dodge perfectly reasonable issues like the ones I raised above. Again, the same plot holes and problems in the TR are there in the DC. But somehow people pretend that 30 extra, unrelated, minutes somehow fix the other stuff. It's like if there was a horse with a broken leg and I said "that horse has a broken leg" and then Pete comes along and puts a hat on it and calls it fixed. That's not fixed. That's just a horse with a broken leg and a hat.

Anyway, why I'm amused by Pete and co. is because I think it's amusing that they would so whole heartly pick up MSJ's poor excuses. People drinking the Kool Aid always amuses me.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
3. Those that haven't seen it but dis it and the people who like it, using the people who don't like it and the things they disliked in the original as some kind of justification for them being in the thread in the first place (illogical, with a twist of obsessive bordering on the completely whacko)


Who's dissing who around here? As I said, my comments were about the radar. Never dissed the DC or the DC lovers. It was Alice and train that started on the "here comes the DD haters."

As for the DC? Look, what, mabye 1% of the people who saw the DD TR (comic and non-comic fans) have seen the DC (only comic book readers most likely). The DC, in the end, is a non-factor.


rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jim B.
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 124
Location: Woodstock Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete: I never ever said I hated Texas! Texas is where Richard Linklater is from and he made one of the coolest movies ever IMO "Dazed and Confused" Texas is great! Now Utah, that place I don't like... Get it right Pete! Mad

Laughing Wink

I liked the DC better than the theatrical but I still don't think it's a great movie, but at least it is more watchable this time around. But I have to agree with some things James C. says, it does not take things out of the movie that made it bad in the first place (except the bad scene of Elektra and Matt in bed like I said about before) so it is still very flawed.
_________________
"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I'm not out to 'convert' anyone to the DD DC cause here. Honestly couldn't care less. I'd actually quite like to trade blows with jc and rgj on the DC, but, unlike the theatrical when we all traded blows regularly, I've refused. Why? Well, it would be unfair. See, I've seen it. they haven't. Straight away I've got the unfair advantage.


james castle wrote:


Look, there's no escaping the fact that the DC contains huge chunks of the TR version. Wikipedia provides a helpful list of things that were cut out of and things that were added into the TR to create the DC. Quite literally nothing in that list touches on any of the problems I outlined above; problems that go to the very heart of the movie.


Well, they're problems for you, not for everyone. Sure the 'flaming DD' and various fight scenes are still there. (The flaming DD was always a problem for me, but then, for me, it hardly even scrapes, let alone touches, 'the very heart of the movie'. But hey, hurrah for Wikipedia. Hurrah.

Its hard to talk about the DC with someone who hasn't seen it. Really, it is. The whole 30 minute subplot thing just misses the mark completely. Anyone who's seen the thing will testify to that. People who have seen it will know this...forget the extra 30 minutes for a moment and concentrate on just an extra six or seven seconds. The final fight scene with Kingpin and DD. In the theatrical, DD fires his billy club cable, the Kingpin catches it with his cane and by sheer brute force manages to thrust DD the whole length of the room, smashing him into the far wall/window. The whole thing just looks lame and unbelievable, even for a superhero movie. People who like the movie think it looks silly. People who hate the movie think its even sillier.

Now, with the 'cynical' ( as jc sees it) release of the DC, people can see what MSJ actually filmed. The Kingpin is strong enough to pull DD half the length of the room, from where he pummels him some more before flinging him the rest of the way into the far wall. Makes sense, and certainly more realistic.

To see just this one scene in its entirety, as it was meant to be, is to wonder why Foster and Fox bothered to cut it to shreads enough so it makes no sense in the first place. Sure, cuts out some of the violence, I guess.

The DC is the movie MSJ made. It's slow paced, dark, very very violent and makes sense. The theatrical, all we had at the time, has been seen for what it is, a bastardised version of that film that the producer and studio tried to squeeze into a 'wham, bam action packed superhero yarn' and failed. They failed then, then failed when they decided to make the sequel 'Elektra'.

Quote:
MSJ made a bad movie. It was panned into the dust. Then he releases a DC and is like "this is the movie I really wanted to make". It's a cagey move because, again, the DC doesn't take out or fix anything in the TR that led to it getting bad reviews. What it does do, however, is two things. First, it allows people to get around a flood of bad reviews. See, no one really reviews DVDs. Those who do generally review DVD a DVDs. That is, the reviews take into account things like bonus features, etc..


Well, your argument would make some kind of sense here if we weren't talking about this particular movie. See, they released the theatrical DVD, with tons of extras, first. What reviews I read were mixed for the film but commended the wealth of extras. Much later they released a DC with next to nothing in extras ( in the UK a single 10-15 minute doc). What reviews there were here focused on the vast inprovement in the DC over the theatrical.

Quote:
Secondly, the DC allows people (like Pete) to forever dodge perfectly reasonable issues like the ones I raised above. Again, the same plot holes and problems in the TR are there in the DC. But somehow people pretend that 30 extra, unrelated, minutes somehow fix the other stuff.


They're remain, of course. your problems and I refuse to 'fix 'em' for you. Fix 'em yourself. Apart from the flaming DD thing, I don't have a problem with any of them. For you they are 'perfectly reasonable issues' that people 'dodge', but some people, frankly, just don't give a damn. Because entering into a 'debate' with you, if possible, would entail us treading old ground, talking about a bastardised version of a film (again) that has been seen in a new light. No one 'pretends' that 30 (actually quite related) minutes somehow fixes your 'stuff', because no one who has watched the DC and liked it cares about your 'stuff'. I've seen the DC. You haven't. I'd love to argue with you about it James, you know in your heart of hearts I would. But I just can't. It would be so unfair of me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the DC address where Matt stayed after his father died when he was 12?? (Cause MSJ didn't know that Matt was much older than that in the comic, apparetly).

Seriously, did he go to foster care in Hell's Kitchen?? Cause that would be amazing if he did.

Look, we can go on and on again about this. Pete liked the TC and the DC even more. jc and rgj hated the TC and don't really care to see the DC.

Sorry, KP throwing Matt in smaller increments doesn't make me want to see the DC. Ghost Rider was MSJ's "vision." And, that sucked too.

rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:

Who's dissing who around here? As I said, my comments were about the radar. Never dissed the DC or the DC lovers. It was Alice and train that started on the "here comes the DD haters."


You're dissing, when you say things like, and I quote, 'easily entertained pro movie group.'

Quote:
As for the DC? Look, what, mabye 1% of the people who saw the DD TR (comic and non-comic fans) have seen the DC (only comic book readers most likely). The DC, in the end, is a non-factor.



Which makes sense in the wider scheme of things. But not on a comic book message board and especially not in a thread called Daredevil Directors Cut.

And Jim B. I like Texas too. I really liked the first album and Charleene whatserface has a really good voice Very Happy

But seriously, thank you. You've seen the DC and didn't like it. Thanks for a valid contribution.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
You're dissing, when you say things like, and I quote, 'easily entertained pro movie group.'


You have to put in proper context. Things had already been said anti-haters. I was just meeting like with like. And, I did say pro movie group. Not pro DC.

rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
You have to put in proper context. Things had already been said anti-haters. I was just meeting like with like. And, I did say pro movie group. Not pro DC.

rgj


My God, how swiftly the 'debate' plummets.

So, you were dissing, like I said? And what is the distinction between 'pro movie' and 'pro DC'? If we're talking people on this board whats the distinction? Do some people belong to one but not the other?

Or are you admiting, in your own subtle way, that, yes, you can't talk about the DC or anyone who likes it with any authority?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:

Now, with the 'cynical' ( as jc sees it) release of the DC, people can see what MSJ actually filmed. The Kingpin is strong enough to pull DD half the length of the room, from where he pummels him some more before flinging him the rest of the way into the far wall. Makes sense, and certainly more realistic.

To see just this one scene in its entirety, as it was meant to be, is to wonder why Foster and Fox bothered to cut it to shreads enough so it makes no sense in the first place. Sure, cuts out some of the violence, I guess.


Well, I stand corrected. I worried that the DC didn't fix the problems with 1) the way Matt got his powers, 2) the way Matt was able to survive (and thrive really) as an orphan in Hell's kitchen, 3) the horrible, giggling Kingpin, 4) Elektra's flaw realization that DD didn't kill her father, 5) Ben's flawed realization that Matt was DD. 6) the bad CGI, 7) the nonsensical court room scene, 8 ) the CENTRAL THEME that "killing is bad Sad". To me these were all major plot points that drove the motivations for the characters. Because they made no sense or were otherwise inconsistant the movie as a whole just fell apart.

Of course, if they fixed the "pulling DD across the room scene" that no one cared about I guess all is forgiven.

Man, I gotta go rent the DC tonight. I can't believe I've been missing out on all this pull/pummel/throw action.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Darediva
Wake Up


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
Pete wrote:
3. Those that haven't seen it but dis it and the people who like it, using the people who don't like it and the things they disliked in the original as some kind of justification for them being in the thread in the first place (illogical, with a twist of obsessive bordering on the completely whacko)


Who's dissing who around here? As I said, my comments were about the radar. Never dissed the DC or the DC lovers. It was Alice and train that started on the "here comes the DD haters."

rgj


Wait, rgj...I didn't start anything. We all knew you and jc would be here sooner or later with something about the DC, because the thread is about the Daredevil movie. You guys LOVE to bash it, and none of us would be surprised by that.

All I said was: I liked the movie, and now a word from rgj and james castle...

At most here, I'm guilty of stating the obvious of what might follow. I'm not riled up here.

Oh, and I like Texas, too, seeing that I am a native Texan.
_________________
Alice




Those who throw dirt merely lose ground.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
My God, how swiftly the 'debate' plummets.

So, you were dissing, like I said? And what is the distinction between 'pro movie' and 'pro DC'? If we're talking people on this board whats the distinction? Do some people belong to one but not the other?

Or are you admiting, in your own subtle way, that, yes, you can't talk about the DC or anyone who likes it with any authority?


The distinction is that I have dissed and been dissed (by) people regarding the TR. It is clear that people don't see eye to eye here regarding the TR. And, as I said, it is clear that more poeple here on MWF like the TR than not. And, when it was stated that the "haters" were more vocal I disagreed, because it is clear that there are more postive remarks on this board about the TR than negative remarks.

I have not made any comments to people regarding the fact that they like the DC. And, yes, just about most of the people here who "liked" the TR "love" the DC.

I have always made it clear that I have not seen the DC. So, it makes no sense to go toe to toe with someone who has seen it. The TR on the other hand, yes, those easily entertained people I can spar with. But, really, does anyone want to anymore? This debate was already settled with the fact that DD will never be on the silver screen again. Read: the Daredevil movie sucked. The DC? I can't tell, only guess.

Again, I made a comment about the radar. Jim B. made some comments and I found them insightful. I can, personally, make an educated guess that I would not like the DC based on what Jim B., or jc, or the interntet say regarding the synopsis of the DD DC. Most, if not all, the stuff I hated about the TR are still in the DC. So, I'm not going to waste my time. And, I'm not going to argue with Pete about the merits (or lack thereof) of the DC.

If I dissed anyone here, it wasn't about the DC. Thats what I said. I dissed about the radar. I dissed about the fact that the pro TR (and some, if not all, happen to be pro DC) came on and started taking jabs at jc and myself for no good reason. And, I will diss anyone here who takes exception to me retorting at any comments made my way.


Alice wrote:
Wait, rgj...I didn't start anything. We all knew you and jc would be here sooner or later with something about the DC, because the thread is about the Daredevil movie. You guys LOVE to bash it, and none of us would be surprised by that.


Well, we'll definitely be here sooner when we are called out. Well, I know I will, I can't speak for jc.

rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear, I don't love to bash the movie. As a long time DD fan nothing would have made me happier than a kick ass DD movie. In fact, as a kid I used to dream about DD hitting the big screen. Heck, I was hyped when I heard the were making the movie. Even when Affleck was cast as Matt Murdock I held out hope. I loved the trailer (with Daredevil looking down at the city...awesome). Even after bad reviews I was excited and dragged my friends (and girlfriend) to the movie. I was super pissed off when everyone started laughing at some of the cheeier bits and even though I cringed at the courtroom scene (he's a public...prosecutor?) I still had hope.

By the end though I was laughing along with my friends (and the rest of the audience) at the awfulness that was the movie. And it wasn't even fanboy hate. Aside from DD my heart will always belong to the X-Men and I loved X-Men and X2 even though they took loads of liberties with the material.

I don't love bashing the movie. I just feel compelled to point out that it was crap.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jc wrote:
I don't love bashing the movie. I just feel compelled to point out that it was crap


Amen. But, it's lost on this bunch.

rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The Netflix show and other movies All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group