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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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 Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | Forrest, did you see my post on the first page? |
Actually, I didn't. (My bad.)
| The Overlord wrote: | I think if someone wants to be Kingpin of super villans, they would have to have super villain lieutenants to help establish his power. These lieutenants will be the more professional villains that would be more interested in money than bloodshed. Give a bunch of these professional villains control over the day to day criminal operations of different sections of the city (Harlem, Hell's Kitchen). It would be a super villain group run like a business, the top guy would be the CEO, while the Lieutenants would be members of the board of directors. A super villain co-op if you will. So this new Kingpin would have an army of villains that would be motivated to defend this group to ensure their own cash flow. Random crazy villains would be hard pressed to mess with a super villain mafia group.
The problem is who would be cunning and powerful enough to create such a group. |
Good point. ...why doesn't an existing group like Hydra, The Hand, etc. do this?
| The Overlord wrote: | | Of course DD wouldn't stand a chance against him, Nefaria is too powerful for him. |
I wonder how much of this new Kingpin stuff will involve DD.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Ahhhh, this is all very sketch. As Overlord points out, in order to have a Kingpin of supervillians you need to have some weird supervilian business model thing. As far as I'm concerned this is another non-starter as far as the House of Ideas' ideas.
Who would be in this Evil Corp.? The thing is, the Kingpin made sense because all of his employees made sense. They were the mob. He was the mob. Every once and a while he'd hire some costumed assassins (Bullseye, Nuke, Typhoid) but over all he was just the mafia. The whole evil corporation made sense because Kingpin and all his employees wanted the same thing.
This same thinking just doesn't apply to supervillians. Some villians want money, sure, but by no means most of them. All the X-Men supervillians traditionally have markedly different goals other than money. And as Forrest points out, some villians don't have any goals. They're just crazy.
I think Marvel just wants to have press conferences where people say "cool" things like "he'll be the Kingpin of supervillians" without actually thinking it through.
Boo.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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jc, you basically said what I meant to say with all those posts, only more clear and concise than I did.
...I try not to come across too negative when this sort of recent Marvel news comes up because I don't want to appear biased... even though I am biased. 
I just can't get behind 90% of the big ideas going around in the House of Ideas, these days. Even worse, many of these big Marvel ideas, like the new Thunderbolts, Wolverine Origins, yet another Ronin mystery, the end of Civil War #2, Civil War in general, etc., leave me with very negative reactions. It's getting to the point were I can't tell if Marvel is really getting this bad or if I'm just getting extremely biased.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | Ahhhh, this is all very sketch. As Overlord points out, in order to have a Kingpin of supervillians you need to have some weird supervilian business model thing. As far as I'm concerned this is another non-starter as far as the House of Ideas' ideas.
Who would be in this Evil Corp.? The thing is, the Kingpin made sense because all of his employees made sense. They were the mob. He was the mob. Every once and a while he'd hire some costumed assassins (Bullseye, Nuke, Typhoid) but over all he was just the mafia. The whole evil corporation made sense because Kingpin and all his employees wanted the same thing.
This same thinking just doesn't apply to supervillians. Some villians want money, sure, but by no means most of them. All the X-Men supervillians traditionally have markedly different goals other than money. And as Forrest points out, some villians don't have any goals. They're just crazy.
I think Marvel just wants to have press conferences where people say "cool" things like "he'll be the Kingpin of supervillians" without actually thinking it through.
Boo. |
Well if one wanted to be the Kingpin of super villains, I would hope that individual would have a little more common sense then to invite every super villain in the planet to join. I don't think Kingpin let everyone who applied to join his organization.
Look the group of Flash villains known as the rogues, they are a super villain union more or less. If you want join them you have to follow certain rules (no drugs, no needless killing of civilians, etc) and would punish or exspelled any member who disobeyed those rules (Captain Cold beat up Mirror Master when he found out he was using drugs). The Rogues don't just invite any lunatic who wants to join in, that's why serial killers like Murmur are not invited.
If a super villain mafia were to suceed, it have to have rules and standards for membership. A possible precurser to a MU super villain mafia was a group called in the new Enforcers (led by Mr. Fear, Controller, Fixer, Mentallo and Sunset Bain) who attempted to seize control of the underworld after DD overthrew the Kingpin the first time in the early 90s in the web of Spider-man title. They used pawns like Dragon Man to do the grunt work. Of course that story didn't really go any where, so that might not be the best example. But villains like the ones mentioned above, who are fairly ruthless, somewhat intelligent and interested in money rather than bloodshed or ideology would make up the membership. Then this inner circle would get a bunch of super powered thugs and mercs to do the grunt work.
After a little research though, it seems like the super villain mafia idea may less original then first thought. The idea may have already been done in Savage Dragon. I may cool on the idea if it has already been done before. Oh well. |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: Hey Brubaker |
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| james castle wrote: | I think Marvel just wants to have press conferences where people say "cool" things like "he'll be the Kingpin of supervillians" without actually thinking it through.
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Precisely! Reckless, ill-conceived, ill-considered, foolhardy story lines are Marvel's modus operandi. Marvel rushes headlong into decisions without weighing the consequences. Let's hurriedly, impulsively, hastily divulge Peter Parker's identity! That will astonish them! No doubt. But...is it a wise, sensible, farsighted decision - ? Will the Spider-Man titles thrive in the long term - or will this unthinking decision prove disastrous? But...sales are outstanding at present, Marvel counters. Yes, but will sales be stellar in the long term? It is highly improbable. Civil War is very much akin to the ill-fated Fall from Grace. DD sales mushroomed initially, then plunged. And the comic floundered for years afterwards. If Marvel doesn't abandon its mapcap, devil-may-care approach, readers will ultimately forsake its titles. Guaranteed.
Norman Osborn and other villans - enforcing the law? Thoughtless. Ill-advised. Impetuous. Mindless. Marvel must turn a deaf ear to Brian Michael Bendis and other blundering scribes before it is too late. |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | After a little research though, it seems like the super villain mafia idea may less original then first thought. The idea may have already been done in Savage Dragon. I may cool on the idea if it has already been done before. Oh well. |
Indeed. There have been countless costumed criminals who seized power in the past. In one memorable Mark Gruenwald yarn, it was revealed that the Red Skull was clandestinely financing hordes of villains! It is not a novel or imaginative idea. The self-admiring Mr. Bendis thinks all of his ideas are groundbreaking. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephan wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | After a little research though, it seems like the super villain mafia idea may less original then first thought. The idea may have already been done in Savage Dragon. I may cool on the idea if it has already been done before. Oh well. |
Indeed. There have been countless costumed criminals who seized power in the past. In one memorable Mark Gruenwald yarn, it was revealed that the Red Skull was clandestinely financing hordes of villains! It is not a novel or imaginative idea. The self-admiring Mr. Bendis thinks all of his ideas are groundbreaking. |
I thought the Red Skull was financing terrorist groups like the Watchdogs to promote chaos and overthrow the US government. That's not really the same thing as a super villain mafia. Red Skull's motives are ideological rather then monetary. However I think the idea is tainted if its just a rehash of what was done in Savage Dragon.
I still think Kingpin was overexposed and needs a few years out of the lime light to avoid him becomming a stale character. brubaker should be allowed to develop some new villains, rather than just recycling Miller's villains. |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | It's getting to the point were I can't tell if Marvel is really getting this bad or if I'm just getting extremely biased. |
It is most assuredly the former, Forrest. Marvel scribes, generally speaking, are not trailblazing or innovative (the Masked Marauder and the Gladiator were trying to seize control of organized crime during the Stan Lee era, for heaven's sake!). These scribes make incautious, impulsive, hare-brained decisions that come back to haunt them in the long run. Their aim is to shock, scandalize and bewilder - and thereby bolster sales. But they lack foresight and farsightedness. They do not have a long-term perspective. And Marvel cannot flourish in the long-term without a long-term perspective. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | jc, you basically said what I meant to say with all those posts, only more clear and concise than I did.. |
I'm a criminal defence lawyer. Saying things nicely is literally all I do (well, that and tell myself that even though I've released another ne'er do well back on to the mean streets I'm still a good guy).
| Stephan wrote: |
Precisely!
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Now he reads and responds to my posts.
Let's all go read Invicible!
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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silvermane23
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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First of all lets give the story a chance before we completely condemn it. Even I'll admit bendis hasnt been as good as he used to be. But I still think he's proven himself as a writer so we should give him one more chance.
P.S. Brubraker rocks and wouldnt sell out like bendis |
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