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Planning a FanFilm, have some questions...
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Fearless
Flying Blind


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Planning a FanFilm, have some questions... Reply with quote

Hi everyone!

I'm new here.
I'm currently working on a DD fanfilm. And I still have some questions and would like to get some comments.
The story is based on Miller's Man without Fear and some older Miller stuff. I want to combine several elements to make the ultimate origin movie.

1. No costume until the very end of the movie! I want to avoid the usual prejudice. When people know they are watching a comic book movie they start criticizing and analyzing everything and start saying that's unrealistic bla, bla, bla, yadda, yadda, yadda...
Sort of like the teaser trailer for Batman Begins. The audience has know idea what awaits until the very end.

2. Matt does NOT kill! Like in TMWF he's traumatized after accidentally killing that whore. But his fighting style is extremely mean. Is there a point where things can get too violent?

3. I want the characters to be in the foreground. Action only when needed.

4. DD doesn't move like Spiderman! He can't jump a 90 ft gap land on a much lower building and keep moving!
I want him to move like a freerunner!

5. I read somewhere that Matt meets Typhoid Mary during his college years in TMWF. Did I miss something?!
The only female characters there are Cathy and her nameless friend and Elektra.

6. Does the character Mickey ever appear again? Her real name is Dominique...

7. In the original continuity Matt and Elektra's relationship lasts for a year and seems to be a standard teeny romance from the look of it. In TMWF it only lasts weeks and fits Miller's philosophy better:"these people bring down entire buildings with their passion!"
In TMWF it can be summed up like this: She is to him like a drug and he is to her like medication. Is that right?

8. The usual street thugs always look like bikers! Hell, bikers, goths and punks are mostly extremely nice guys! Of course there are some a-holes but that's just discriminating!
I would make them look like hiphoppers; those stupid wannabe gangsters! I see them everyday and haven't met one nice guy!
I would love to see some get beat up badly!

9. Is Matt lefthanded?

10. Why does Jack call Matt's mother Maggie? I thought her name used to be Grace? Does that imply that he knows she became a nun?

11. Towards the end of TMWF Matt tries to free Mickey and after he knocked out all of the "guards", Larks (the hitman) bails and takes Mickey with him. Why? By now he he should have realized that this vigilante is after Mickey! And she doesn't know enough to do any harm. The police is on their way anyway; so why doesn't he just bail alone?!

12.Why the hell does he don the costume at the end. It feels forced. He's not yet fed up with the injustice in the curtroom or anything? Can somebody explain?

13. After he got badly injured when freeing Mickey wouldn't it be logical for him to make a slightly armored costume so that he wouldn't return injured every night. After a while he would have enough practice to loose the armor but in the first weeks?
Or should I just go with something directly out of the comics?

I hope this post isn't too long but I'd really love to get some answers Very Happy
Cause I want to get things right!

-Roman
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my two cents:

Quote:
1. No costume until the very end of the movie! I want to avoid the usual prejudice. When people know they are watching a comic book movie they start criticizing and analyzing everything and start saying that's unrealistic bla, bla, bla, yadda, yadda, yadda...


Interesting choice. But keep in mind that people will go bla bla yadda yadda anyway, so don't be too afraid about it. Just try to do your best and it should be ok.

Quote:
2. Matt does NOT kill! Like in TMWF he's traumatized after accidentally killing that whore. But his fighting style is extremely mean. Is there a point where things can get too violent?


Well, Matt should try to non-permanently incapacitate his enemies. He only does worse if the situation requires it (Mickey's life being in danger, Frank Castle getting more nuts than acceptable, an helicopter shooting on civilians etc).
This is how readers recognize Daredevil (more or less). The rule of the thumb, if we want. If DD doesn't fight according to it, people don't recognize him has DD, which is not good for your work.

Quote:
4. DD doesn't move like Spiderman! He can't jump a 90 ft gap land on a much lower building and keep moving!
I want him to move like a freerunner!


Of course not. But keep in mind that his hypersenses allow him to perform feats that would not be possible even to peak atlethes. For example, someone in a past topic said something about DD being able to perform "blind jumps", i.e. jumping backwards knowing that he will land on the ground.
The senses allow him to have a wider range of mobility.
Plus, he received an intensive ninja-like training, which arguably pushed his abilities even further.

Quote:
5. I read somewhere that Matt meets Typhoid Mary during his college years in TMWF. Did I miss something?!
The only female characters there are Cathy and her nameless friend and Elektra.


Never heard about it.

Quote:
6. Does the character Mickey ever appear again? Her real name is Dominique...


Never heard about this either.

Quote:
7. In the original continuity Matt and Elektra's relationship lasts for a year and seems to be a standard teeny romance from the look of it. In TMWF it only lasts weeks and fits Miller's philosophy better:"these people bring down entire buildings with their passion!"
In TMWF it can be summed up like this: She is to him like a drug and he is to her like medication. Is that right?


Hard to say. It's not immediate to decipher what exactly Miller wanted to depict. They had indeed a very special relation. Yours could be a viable interpretation, though.

Quote:
8. The usual street thugs always look like bikers! Hell, bikers, goths and punks are mostly extremely nice guys! Of course there are some a-holes but that's just discriminating!
I would make them look like hiphoppers; those stupid wannabe gangsters! I see them everyday and haven't met one nice guy!
I would love to see some get beat up badly!


Splendid idea. I hate those gangsta guy, too. Also, this could help to fit the story in a more modern context.

Quote:
9. Is Matt lefthanded?


Officially yes. I remember Miller depicting him left-handed more than once (for example, when pointing a gun). Exceptions come to mind (For example #1 (vol.1)). He can certainly be considered ambidexter when he fights, or swings through the city.

Quote:
10. Why does Jack call Matt's mother Maggie? I thought her name used to be Grace? Does that imply that he knows she became a nun?


Her name was Grace, in fact. What Jack knew about her has yet to be revealed, anyway.

Quote:
11. Towards the end of TMWF Matt tries to free Mickey and after he knocked out all of the "guards", Larks (the hitman) bails and takes Mickey with him. Why? By now he he should have realized that this vigilante is after Mickey! And she doesn't know enough to do any harm. The police is on their way anyway; so why doesn't he just bail alone?!


An explaination could be that the KP told him that he could do as he pleased with the girl. Or maybe that he just felt he needed a hostage. Miller probably wanted to set up the climatic scene when Larks holds her at gunpoint.

Quote:
12.Why the hell does he don the costume at the end. It feels forced. He's not yet fed up with the injustice in the curtroom or anything? Can somebody explain?


Well, at the end, Miller had to show what would've become of the vigilante Daredevil. He had to show the costume, even if he relegated it to the last splash page. Why he decided to don the costume is another story, left BTS.

Quote:
13. After he got badly injured when freeing Mickey wouldn't it be logical for him to make a slightly armored costume so that he wouldn't return injured every night. After a while he would have enough practice to loose the armor but in the first weeks?


A possible reason could be the fact that he needed something that wouldn't alter his mobility.

Quote:
I hope this post isn't too long but I'd really love to get some answers


Don't worry about that. My reply, with all these quotes, is even longer.
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rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt is not left handed. Yes, his holster is on his left thigh, but he usually holds his club (fighting and swinging) with his right. Matt is good with both arms/hands but it has never been shown that he is left handed.

This was the only question I read as I skimmed tough the fanfilm post. It's early, just got up, maybe I'll read it more carefully later.

rgj

p.s. His mother's name is Margaret Grace
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Planning a FanFilm, have some questions... Reply with quote

Fearless wrote:

8. The usual street thugs always look like bikers! Hell, bikers, goths and punks are mostly extremely nice guys! Of course there are some a-holes but that's just discriminating!
I would make them look like hiphoppers; those stupid wannabe gangsters! I see them everyday and haven't met one nice guy!
I would love to see some get beat up badly!


Oh, so you want to make a racist movie?

Man, I feel like I'm doing this a lot lately but, you know, this kind of crap calls out for it.

Aside from that the whole approach to the costume you seem to be taking seems kinda backward. Like, you're obviously concerned about the reality of the costume and you acknowledge that most people think costumes are a bit silly. But then you say you want to "save it until the end". You want to save the part people think is silly until the end?

Superhero costumes are superhero costumes. Either you accept them as part of the genre or you don't. Any attempt to blend the genre with reality by making costumes "make sense" always fails.
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Fearless
Flying Blind


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Planning a FanFilm, have some questions... Reply with quote

james castle wrote:

Oh, so you want to make a racist movie?


I see your points and opinions is exactly what I wanted to hear but calling me a racist or saying I want to make a racist movie is probably the worst thing I heard lately!

You know, I got beat up and bullied by wannabe gangsters for years, my childhood was a wonderful nightmare. And I don't care which skin color these "gangstaz" have. I saw how good friends turned into **** up assholes because they wanted to be cool...

I know 80% of the small thugs in my town because I grew up with them.
There are few exceptions, those whose will was strong enough, who did not become a-holes. But again those are only exceptions...
I don't care what kind of music they are listening to or what brand of clothes they wear.

I got called a Nazi numerous times. My friends have no idea why and neither do I. I wear jeans and t-shirts, have long hair so it can't be my looks.
I may look pissed off from time to time but there are reasons for it. And don't make me start telling more stories about my family and my childhood.

Mr. Castle you opened a wound that never seems to heal because someone always has to rip it open again.

I wanted to make Man Without Fear because I could identify with Matt Murdock and feel for him.
When I went through the pages of TMWF I saw things that happened to me in almost the exact same manner.
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Born Again
Flying Blind


Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the whore survived to become Typhoid. I want to know about Domonique too.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Planning a FanFilm, have some questions... Reply with quote

Fearless wrote:
james castle wrote:

Oh, so you want to make a racist movie?


I see your points and opinions is exactly what I wanted to hear but calling me a racist or saying I want to make a racist movie is probably the worst thing I heard lately!

You know, I got beat up and bullied by wannabe gangsters for years, my childhood was a wonderful nightmare. And I don't care which skin color these "gangstaz" have. I saw how good friends turned into **** up assholes because they wanted to be cool...

I know 80% of the small thugs in my town because I grew up with them.
There are few exceptions, those whose will was strong enough, who did not become a-holes. But again those are only exceptions...
I don't care what kind of music they are listening to or what brand of clothes they wear.

I got called a Nazi numerous times. My friends have no idea why and neither do I. I wear jeans and t-shirts, have long hair so it can't be my looks.
I may look pissed off from time to time but there are reasons for it. And don't make me start telling more stories about my family and my childhood.

Mr. Castle you opened a wound that never seems to heal because someone always has to rip it open again.

I wanted to make Man Without Fear because I could identify with Matt Murdock and feel for him.
When I went through the pages of TMWF I saw things that happened to me in almost the exact same manner.


What? You were picked on and beat up growing up? Join the club, man. Do you know what people who are picked on and beat up are? They're comic book fans. Walk into any comic shop and say "if you were picked on as a kid please raise you hand" and you better believe almost every hand in the place is gonna go up (with the possible exception of the cute girl buying manga). Don't come crying to me about your rough childhood. It's a big bad world. Get used to it.

As for your comments and my reaction to them: there is no way you can actually argue that hip-hop isn't a racialized genre. Hip-hop has always been tied to the black community, specifically the poor black community. So excuse me when when I call you out for saying that you'd like to see hip-hoppers "beat up badly". It's absurd to say that you've never met a nice hip-hopper or gangster. I happen to know and work with a whole lot of people who would fit that profile and a lot, a lot of them are nice people. It's also absurd that you say you don't care what music these people listen to. You called the hip-hoppers and hip-hop is a musical genre.

Back the the "beat up badly" thing, that's what really hacked me off. The fact that you want to have a specific type of person beat up in your movie because you'd like to see real life people beat up is disgusting. No two ways about it.

You obviously idolize Daredevil in some way (once again join the club) so here are a couple hints:

Hint 1: If you want to be like DD and you feel like you had a similar childhood the last thing you should do is think about vengence and beating people up.

Hint 2: The last thing on earth Matt Murdock wants to do is beat people up badly. Matt fights because he has to but it's clear that he doesn't want to. He takes no satisfaction in it. Go track down the two issue Nocenti written arc called "don't touch me"/"touch me" for an exploration of that issue.

Reacting to having been bullied by wishing violence on others is horrid and against everything Daredevil is. Daredevil is about taking whatever pain you have and using it to do something constructive. Try to fit that into your movie instead of focusing on who you want to pretend beat.
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it should be said that if you depict the street thugs as gangsta, there's the risk that it will seem racist, given the fact that in today's collective imaginary, black people are usually associated with "the gangstas" and viceversa.

But if I were you I wouldn't care about it. The gangsta suck.

Quote:
I got called a Nazi numerous times. My friends have no idea why and neither do I.


I got called a communist numerous times myself.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that DD in the past has held a gun more than once with his left hand. "Roulette" and "Child's Play" by Miller come to mind. Also, in MWOF, I think he holds bow and arrow like a left-handed would.

Edited:
No, I'm not being repetitive, I just happened to post right after the reply above.
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rgj
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, so you want specific examples. Like in Born Again, the famous splash page of DD in the flames, DD has his club in his right hand, and I bet if you read 10 comics, he will favor his right hand with the club.

In Born Again, when Matt turns the corner to making a comeback (symbolically) and he is hitting the heavy bag at Fogwell's gym (you know, when he knocks it off it's chain), he has the stance of a right handed fighter. His left shoulder is to the bag.

Now, I'm not saying Matt isn't skilled with his left hand, I'm just saying that, OVERALL, he seems to be right handed.

rgj

Perhaps he likes firing guns with his left hand because if he did it with his right he'd kill every time. Cool

p.s. James Castle. Keep fighting the good fight!
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james castle
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get called a communist all the time but that's only because I don't believe in private ownership of property.
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Fearless
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey James,

I'm sorry about what I said. Must be my sometimes wicked temper..

Your so right about what you said about the costume, Matt's behaviour etc.
That stuff with the hiphop was again my bad.
Where I live there are close to no black people (I know only two and they are very good friends of mine, actually they got picked on back then, too).
But there are other examples like a former friend who later became a typical bully.
Or another who acts like a gangsta in public but i know the guy since he was 5 years old and when he's alone he is still that great kid but as soon as his friends come around he changes.
Or another freind a great artist, honestly! He was extremely talented and now I mention his name and people think of getting beat up and being threatened.

The type I want to portray is living in my neighborhood.
The type that threatens you "I'll kill you etc.".
I told the guy "Come on! Go ahead! Have fun!" and then he didn't know what to do and ran off.

These guys won't be black.

And for the costume, I'll probably go with something like Bermejo's suit, now Wink
Does anybody have a higher resolution version of this image?



Last edited by Fearless on Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:

p.s. James Castle. Keep fighting the good fight!


Don't get too excited, rgj. As soon as I'm finished demonstrating that Matt is left-handed I'll take turns on comrade Castle to prove that the gangsta are bad individuals. Then we will see.

No, seriously, in the end, I must admit there's actually not enough elements to say that Matt his left-handed. For example, I checked an old issue in which he shoots the Masked Marauder's blimp with a gun, and he does so with his right hand.
You won the fight, rgj. I quit.
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Forrest
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Planning a FanFilm, have some questions... Reply with quote

Fearless wrote:
2. Matt does NOT kill! Like in TMWF he's traumatized after accidentally killing that whore.


Well, he didn't kill her. (See Daredevil/Deadpool '97 Annual.)

Fearless wrote:
But his fighting style is extremely mean. Is there a point where things can get too violent?


Yep, anything Miller has written in the past 20 years.

Fearless wrote:
5. I read somewhere that Matt meets Typhoid Mary during his college years in TMWF. Did I miss something?!


...ah, my best response would be the Daredevil/Deadpool '97 Annual.

Fearless wrote:
7. In the original continuity Matt and Elektra's relationship lasts for a year and seems to be a standard teeny romance from the look of it. In TMWF it only lasts weeks and fits Miller's philosophy better:"these people bring down entire buildings with their passion!"
In TMWF it can be summed up like this: She is to him like a drug and he is to her like medication. Is that right?


If you ask me, Miller is so obsessed with disregarding continuity that he tramples his own but then complains when his character is appropriately used by another writer, over 100 issues after her death. Go figure.

Fearless wrote:
10. Why does Jack call Matt's mother Maggie? I thought her name used to be Grace? Does that imply that he knows she became a nun?


All I can so is the amount we don't know about Jack, Matt's mother, Grace, Sister Maggie, etc. would fill volumes. I'm hoping this year's Battling Jack mini will be something special. Very Happy

Fearless wrote:
13. After he got badly injured when freeing Mickey wouldn't it be logical for him to make a slightly armored costume so that he wouldn't return injured every night.


Because if he did, the writer would get fired? Razz

Good luck with your film!
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Fearless
Flying Blind


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Forrest, Francesco, rgj and especially James Castle for clearing things up and making me wake up. Very Happy
I was frightened I might turn into a second MSJ Shocked

-Roman
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interested by this topic, I re-read MWOF.
And indeed, if one didn't read any other DD, the impression is that Matt fights and beats up the thugs because they remind him of the kids who bullied him when he was a kid.

Of course, it could be said that the mini just shows the origins of DD, maybe implying that back in the beginnings, his motivations were still not well defined.
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