Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.


If The Incredible Hulk and Punsiher: War Zone do well....
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The Netflix show and other movies
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hylozoii
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not foresee another DD film for awhile. If you've seen how successful Iron Man was and the ending of The Incredible Hulk, the safe assumption would be a Captain America and Thor or even an AntMan film to precede the imminent Avengers film to come. I hope they make a new DD film before ten years. But I don't see it. Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk were awesome films.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with another Daredevil movie, especially a reboot is this: what would be different? The first one was "gritty" and vaguely true to the comic (but not really) and had Kingpin, Bullseye, Elektra, Stick, etc.. A "reboot" would just be a remake of the same film. Sure, we'd all see the difference (say if the origin was changed back to the original - Matt gets blinded being a hero, not just being careless) but no one else would. To the public it would seem almost exactly the same.

The reason they're re-trying Hulk and Punisher is because those are long standing successful and publicly known frachises. No one knew who Daredevil was before the 2003 movie. After the movie everyone thinks he's a crappy character who was in a crappy movie. It would be suicidal to try a third movie (like it or not everyone except MSJ saw Elektra as Daredevil 2).
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a reboot could work, but I do think several more years should pass before it is attempted. And, hopefully by someone who really loves the character and mythology. Not some chump that is just trying to make his way into directing and writing films and would say anything (*lie*) to get the job.

Just to answer jc, I don't think the reboot has to include Elektra for one thing. As jc said the origin could be restored (not that any one single thing made the movie bad, rather it was just the sum of it that made it stink). Also, they can make Karen Page an important character and set up a future BA movie. And, there are many other things a good script and directing can bring. You could actually see Ben Urich investigate Daredevil. Mabye, culminating with a rooftop confrontation with him giving DD the old "Tell me what's on this picture?" test. For heaven's sake, any good script, good directing and good acting can make an audience understand the difference between a good film and a bad one. I don't think many people knew who Iron Man was (as all the RottenTomatoes reviews admitted) but, a good solid effort in movie making can make a difference.

So, Marvel, get the rights back, wait a while and find someone who really loves the character, or at least understands him. I'm not saying the movie/script has to be Gospel to the DD mythos, it just has to be good.
_________________
rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, maybe after a number of years (like, 5-10 from now) they could try again. Dunno why they would though. There are tonnes of Marvel characters. Like it or not DD is a b-lister. The fact that they tried to make a DD movie at all is astounding. If they took another shot at it I'd be amazed.

As for rgj's response to me...I dunno. See, even though you're just throwing ideas out there, to me the movie you're describing is still pretty close to the 2003 one. Sure Elektra could be scrapped and maybe the Ben angle would be different and, again, you and I would notice all these things. The average person? Not so much.

My point is that to redo it I feel like there'd have to be something new. A new direction that would justify trying it again. What you're decribing is a movie with the same basic direction as the first one...only good. I think that boat has sailed.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jc wrote:
My point is that to redo it I feel like there'd have to be something new. A new direction that would justify trying it again. What you're decribing is a movie with the same basic direction as the first one...only good. I think that boat has sailed.


Yeah, it may have, indeed, sailed.

As far as something "new." I dunno, they still have to be DD characters. Matt, Foggy, Karen and Ben. You still need a blinded as a boy/father killed by mob (only not KP!) origin. You can't get away from that or it won't be DD.

You are right, DD is a "B" character, in terms of awareness and Marvel priority. But, I can still see this happening some 5-10 years down the road. But, yeah, well after the Avengers thing they currently have on the table.
_________________
rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
jc wrote:
My point is that to redo it I feel like there'd have to be something new. A new direction that would justify trying it again. What you're decribing is a movie with the same basic direction as the first one...only good. I think that boat has sailed.


Yeah, it may have, indeed, sailed.

As far as something "new." I dunno, they still have to be DD characters. Matt, Foggy, Karen and Ben. You still need a blinded as a boy/father killed by mob (only not KP!) origin. You can't get away from that or it won't be DD.

You are right, DD is a "B" character, in terms of awareness and Marvel priority. But, I can still see this happening some 5-10 years down the road. But, yeah, well after the Avengers thing they currently have on the table.


Another thing that occured to me is that in the new Hulk movie there's no origin. Well, there is, but it's super brief. I think part of that is that people kinda know that the Hulk was blasted by gamma rays (the TV show is pop culture common knowledge). I don't think you could get away with the same thing in a DD movie. Hence you'd need to re-do the whole origin which would be basically a re-do of the beginning of the 2003 film.

The other thing I'll throw out there is: who cares? When I was a kid I wanted a DD movie so bad. I think there's a feeling of movies being THE medium. Like somehow we'll all get to experience DD in a more profound way if only they did it right in movie form. After all the superhero movies that have some out I realize that the best you can hope for is a watered down version of what you love. I loved the X-Men movies (well, the first two) but they don't come close to the comic. Same with Batman Begins. I think Dark Knight is going to blow my mind. But will it live up to DKR? Not a chance. So, in the end, I'm happy with DD as a comic. No need for another movie.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right. The origin would have to be retold if another movie was done.

But, a writer could be creative. We don't have to have an entire first part of the movie showing little Matt. They could incorporate an origin in say, Ben Urich's investigation of Matt Murdock being DD. You can have all these investigative flash back snippets during Urich's research. Retelling the origin doesn't have to be a big part of the film. Hell, the flashbacks could even be illustrations with voice over (art panels flying by as Ben reads an old newspaper of Matt's accident, or Ben talking to old friends of Battlin' Jack). Hell, get a famous DD artist to do these illustrations. All the origin needs to be is just enough to get people up to speed.

But, anyway, as you say, there really isn't a NEED for the redo. But, part of me still thinks it would be great if the did it better.
_________________
rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darediva
Wake Up


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point about how they could do the origin in flashbacks like that. Of course, the last DD movie told the origin in flashback, but I like your ideas better, rgj.

Maybe we don't NEED another DD movie, but I sure want one. Who needed three Spideys, or three X-Men movies, or two Hulks, or two Hellboys, etc., etc.?
_________________
Alice




Those who throw dirt merely lose ground.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Good point about how they could do the origin in flashbacks like that. Of course, the last DD movie told the origin in flashback, but I like your ideas better, rgj.


Well, in the movie it was done in ONE flashback for the most part. So, it seemed like it was one nice chunk of the beginning of the film, almost a prolgue, if you will. It ran almost linear in that sense.

But, what I've said is that Ben Urich could actaully have a real investigation of MM (and not some ridiculous "hey, that's Murdock's cane"--amazingly contrived by MSJ--and "hey, that's DD's cane! 1 + 1 is 2! Eureka!!). And, as he gathers snippets of evidence we see these many short flashbacks. And, if you want me to go all geek on you, I would have culminated the investigation with a Urich/DD confrontation with the picture test. Hey, you throw a homage to the comic, what the hell.
_________________
rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
I would have culminated the investigation with a Urich/DD confrontation with the picture test. Hey, you throw a homage to the comic, what the hell.

Is this the part where JC points out that DD's ability to stop a bullet cancels out his inability to see a picture? Wink Just kidding... Seriously, hold the tomatoes! *waves white flag*

About the movie, I would love to see a complete reboot, and this is coming from someone who found the comic via the Director's Cut (though I found the theatrical release to be completely forgettable). I also really like the idea of an in medias res opening with flashback sequences interspersed throughout. The Ben Urich investigation thing mentioned really works for me.

One thing I find somewhat disappointing with the movie is that it pays homage to lots of different moments and storylines in the comic without really being about any of them. What I mean is that it looks like parts of the Elektra saga on the surface, without actually retelling that story at all. And it's the same with a lot of things. I'd like to see the opposite where you would mimic the actual feel and mythos of the book much more but maybe allowing yourself to stray from the source material in other ways if that means making the story more compelling. I mean, we get the comic every month expecting something new but we still recognize all the characters as themselves and the book as sticking to a certain format. I think a partial retelling of an old storyline with some new elements introduced is perfectly permissible in movie adaptations, and I think most fans are totally fine with that as long as the story works and they recognize the characters.

I think you could get away with a reboot if you package it completely differently, give it a new name (Man Without Fear?), and market it differently. Also, leave Elektra out. That would go a long way toward giving the movie a completely different feel and make it a different story. Adding Stick would also help (Matt learning all that by himself was as goofy in the movie as it was in the original origin story). Also, I don't ever want to see any fighting with a white cane ever again. I still stand by actually liking the Director's Cut quite a bit, warts and all, and I'm not ashamed to say it either, but that playground scene was perhaps one of the most stupid things I've ever seen in a movie. The same goes for any scene that is included for the sole purpose of looking cool, such as the nod to The Crow and the overdone warming up and testing my weaponry scene.

Where I disagree with rgj regarding how MSJ approached this movie, is whether he is a fan of the character or not. He quite clearly is, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Whenever I go checking various message boards on other sites, I often find myself being insanely grateful that the fans aren't writing the book. Because what you get is a "wouldn't it be cool to do x, y, and z...?" and then you get totally carried away with it and lose focus. And, you get a bunch of "cool scenes" that don't really fit together. Many of the flaws I see in the movie have to do with MSJ getting carried away more than anything else.

Anyway, those were my two cents. I actually think we will see another DD movie, if Marvel's future movie projects continue to do well, but I don't think it will happen earlier than 2012.
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers


Last edited by jumonji on Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:

But, a writer could be creative. We don't have to have an entire first part of the movie showing little Matt. They could incorporate an origin in say, Ben Urich's investigation of Matt Murdock being DD. You can have all these investigative flash back snippets during Urich's research.


That's a neat idea.
A big problem of the Iron Man movie was just that. The origin took up a large part of the movie.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
One thing I find somewhat disappointing with the movie is that it pays homage to lots of different moments and storylines in the comic without really being about any of them. What I mean is that it looks like parts of the Elektra saga on the surface, without actually retelling that story at all.


I totally disagree. Looks like TES on the surface? If you mean that one little scene where Bulls produces a playing card and cuts her throat with it, says his famous Miller line, and then impales her with her sai? If that's what you mean by "on the surface," I guess you are right.

MSJ's movie was nothing like TES (not that I'm saying that is the reason the movie blew--believe me, I think the movie sucked for so many other reasons). In fact, the movie was closer to PARTS OF A HOLE, but substituting Elektra for Echo.

Quote:
I often find myself being insanely grateful that the fans aren't writing the book. Because what you get is a "wouldn't it be cool to do x, y, and z...?"


I don't think there is anything wrong with fans wanting some elements (if not storylines) of the comics to be in the film. Look at SIN CITY, that worked out okay. It can't be worse than MSJ saying "hey, those flamming double D's are going to look cool on screen when Ben Urich turns them ablaze!. For instance, I've always thought that one of the greatest opening scenes for a first DD movie would be from Miller's Child's Play. To have the openning scene be of an elementary school girl throwing herself out the window in a drug fit would have been powerful. Something like this would have been cool, not because of some fanboy "Look!, it's like the comic!," but rather because of the tone it would set for this "comic book" movie. What better way to divorce yourself of the colorful and almost comical "violence" of the Spiderman movies. What better way to say, Daredevil's world is different. Here's a homage (or as jumonji says a "wouldn't it be cool . . .") to the film that sets a real tone and feel for the film you are about to see.

As far as you believing that MSJ is a true DD fan. Look, he said the EXACT same thing about Ghost Rider (another film ripped by critics), for heaven's sake.
_________________
rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
jumonji wrote:
One thing I find somewhat disappointing with the movie is that it pays homage to lots of different moments and storylines in the comic without really being about any of them. What I mean is that it looks like parts of the Elektra saga on the surface, without actually retelling that story at all.


I totally disagree. Looks like TES on the surface? If you mean that one little scene where Bulls produces a playing card and cuts her throat with it, says his famous Miller line, and then impales her with her sai? If that's what you mean by "on the surface," I guess you are right.

Actually, that was exactly what I meant. Like copying that scene, but essentially not having it be the same scene because it's not the same story And other scenes as well, though that's the most obvious example. You take elements here and there, shake, then pour. Voilá!

rgj wrote:
In fact, the movie was closer to PARTS OF A HOLE, but substituting Elektra for Echo.

Agreed. I just said it wasn't the Elektra Saga.

rgj wrote:
Quote:
I often find myself being insanely grateful that the fans aren't writing the book. Because what you get is a "wouldn't it be cool to do x, y, and z...?"


I don't think there is anything wrong with fans wanting some elements (if not storylines) of the comics to be in the film.

Of course not. I'm sure everyone who hangs out here could think of things that would be cool in a movie and would look good in a movie. I think the problem is where you stay at the level of being a fanboy and not going beyond that to be a really good storyteller. Even though I feel differently about the movie than you do, I'm essentially bringing up things I felt didn't work about it. Considering the number of flaws I find, I'm actually quite surprised I like it at all anymore (it was different before I was so heavily into the comic).

rgj wrote:
What better way to say, Daredevil's world is different. Here's a homage (or as jumonji says a "wouldn't it be cool . . .") to the film that sets a real tone and feel for the film you are about to see.

I'm actually quite capable of using the word homage, and prefer it myself. I was doing a poor (teenage) fanboy impression. Wink

rgj wrote:
As far as you believing that MSJ is a true DD fan. Look, he said the EXACT same thing about Ghost Rider (another film ripped by critics), for heaven's sake.

How do you measure a true fan? And can you not be a fan of more than one comic book character? I believe that you can be a fan and totally blow it anyway. I saw the Ghost Rider movie and fell asleep after the first half because I thought it was terrible. I thought the theatrical release of DD was a butchered version of a flawed movie that I still like in spite of itself (though I do mentally divorce it from the comic to a great extent). Neither movie disproves that MSJ is a fan of either of these characters, just that something obviously happened along the way that prevented their success.
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, that was exactly what I meant. Like copying that scene, but essentially not having it be the same scene because it's not the same story And other scenes as well, though that's the most obvious example


Actually, that ONE scene is the only thing I recognized from the mythos. That's the only homage I recognized.


Quote:
Neither movie disproves that MSJ is a fan of either of these characters, just that something obviously happened along the way that prevented their success.


True. But, judging by the final product, I got the feeling he hardly knew the fundamentals of the character and mythology, something a "true" fan would know. MSJ said he was a fan of the book while promoting the movie. Sounds like good practice for someone trying to sell something, you know, "use my product, I do." The sum of the things he got wrong and miscarachterized was astounding to me (unless, of course, he felt "his version" of DD was better than 40 years of mythology). There is something to be said for keeping true to "the spirit" of the mythology and character, like Christopher Nolan or Robert Rodriguez.

Regardless, this is why I think he's lying when he said he was a "fan."

Can I prove it? Nah. I'll let his work speak for itself.

OT: By the way, Dark Knight looks to be amazing. Preliminary reviews (RottenTomatoes) are all positive, some even calling it a "masterpiece." Of course, we must all judge for ourselves, and I can't wait to do so.
_________________
rgj
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a hard time believing MSJ was or is a fan of the DD comics. As rgj says, MSJ just missed way too many fundimental things about the characters. Surely were a real fan on set he'd be saying things like "should the Kingpin really be laughing and smiling this much?" or "what's wrong with the original origin story?". The thing that gets me is that any time a superhero movie comes out absolutely everyone involved says one of two things. They either say:

1. "I've always been a fan of [whatever character they're playing]".

2. "As soon as I got the job I read every issue of [comic the movie is based on]".

Everytime. And people say the number 1 option way, way too much. It just isn't possible that this many fans of obscure characters are getting cast in these things. I'm skeptical.

As for "we don't need another movie" my point was just that, as far as I can tell, movies are on the way out (well, they'll never go away obviously but they're becoming less important as a thing). For me they're, like, forth in terms of pop culture mediums I care about. Fifth if you count music. Why does everyone want Hollywood to crap on their favorite comic character?
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The Netflix show and other movies All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group