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Daredevil #111 discussion
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Matt was perfect, then yes, he wouldn't commit adultery. But he's not. I think it's an interesting angle to explore with the character.
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vtsoxfan7
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Boo hoo hoo. I'm so lonely and grieving, let's cheat on my wife who is currently in care of a psychiatric institution.


I don't think anyone is condoning the actions. Obviously what Matt did was wrong. I think what many of us are 'liking' is the realism with which the events are occurring. There are alot of other ways this hook up could have gone down that would have been extremely detrimental to not just the characters but the story as well. I think the way Bru is writing this, where the characters involved are questioning what they are doing and the ramifications of their actions adds another layer to the story. Matt didn't just question himself following the hook up, but Dakota even said 'what are we doing?' before they kissed after their training session.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
If Matt was perfect, then yes, he wouldn't commit adultery. But he's not. I think it's an interesting angle to explore with the character.


Of course Matt's not perfect, Dave. But, apart from the fact that suffering doesn't automatically justify you to do such actions, I think that Matt Murdock, hero of the book, should stand out a little from what "others would do".
He's supposed to be something more than the average female protagonist of romance novels you find in supermarkets, he's supposed to endure.

Heck, no one remembers the Widow storyarc? In it, he had practically broken with Milla, having been requested to sign the annulment by her lawyers. He returns home at night along with the Widow, after having kicked Jigsaw's butt, and there is this uber-sexy Russian redhead, all hot and ready to comfort him any way he wants.
They're about to lock lips but he stops. He can't do it, because of the simple reason that he still loves Milla and still feels married to her (and I might add, the Widow understands and respects that).

Now, I'm not saying that there should be coherence in this, that Matt should always behave one way because he did that before. God forbid it, in real life people continuously change their mind and ways of behaving.
I'll just say that I liked that portrayal of Matt better than this one.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:
If Matt was perfect, then yes, he wouldn't commit adultery. But he's not. I think it's an interesting angle to explore with the character.


Of course Matt's not perfect, Dave. But, apart from the fact that suffering doesn't automatically justify you to do such actions, I think that Matt Murdock, hero of the book, should stand out a little from what "others would do".

Here's where I tend to disagree, and I know you and I have had this conversation before. To me, Matt has always been the superhero next door in a way. While he possesses more of a heroic streak than most people, he is a flawed man and in this regard a "regular" person. I, in fact, love that he's a regular person with the same moral shortcomings as everyone else. I don't think that Matt is any more justified in cheating than anyone else is, nor do I really think the "alone and suffering" bit is necessarily an excuse. But it does provide an explanation for why he'd be more likely to fall for temptation than if the circumstances were different.

When I first read about this development, before reading the issue, I was taken aback by it. When reading the issue, I can sort of see and understand the chain of events, and I felt that the whole development, including Matt and Dakota's conversations throughout the issue explains where this is all coming from and how the two of them ended up where they did. I have always had the sense that Matt is essentially a good and noble person (I'm even in the "Matt is nice" camp in case you guys remember that thread), and, perhaps surprisingly, my assessment of the character hasn't changed. At all. His actions were immoral, not particularly heroic, but he is first and foremost a human being. I don't necessarily want a hero who's "better" than me or who provides a role model for the rest of us. Having him be flawed, within reason, is more interesting.

One thing I really like about the Matt/Dakota thing is that it appears that Bru is using it to dig a little deeper into Matt's psyche and that is one thing I'm 100% in favor of. I'm intrigued by this development actually, though I think this subplot will probably take a backseat to the exploration of the Lady Bullseye plot in the next couple of issues.
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Gloria
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe what annoys me a bit is the over-dramatic "What have you done, Matt?" after the deed is done. I mean, Matt wasn't drunk or drugged when he started (though maybe there's that subplot where Mr. Fear has pheromoned both Matt and Dakota to break them down)

At least Dakota asks "Matt, what are we doing?" before stepping into action.

Or maybe Matt has bedded Dakota under a nervous breakdown because of Milla's lunacy, whom he married because he had a nervous breakdown about Karen's death

Anyway, bru is one heckuva writer... Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing this issue: I bet he's got us all pretty caught in the story Wink
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gloria wrote:
Anyway, bru is one heckuva writer... Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing this issue: I bet he's got us all pretty caught in the story Wink

What amazes me about Bru is that he can take a development that I would never have wished for and actually make me like it. I didn't technically like it when he put Milla in the looney bin either, but he did it so well, I didn't even care all that much when it happened.

I implicitly trust him as a writer, and I always get the sense that he knows what he's doing, and that makes the ride a lot of fun. I guess the secret to enjoying all of it, is to presume nothing and just let him work his magic to the point where all of it makes sense in the end, regardless of what your notions may have been going into it.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reserve of "trust in Brubaker even when you think he's screwing up" has sadly ran out, I'm afraid.

Quote:

Maybe what annoys me a bit is the over-dramatic "What have you done, Matt?" after the deed is done. I mean, Matt wasn't drunk or drugged when he started (though maybe there's that subplot where Mr. Fear has pheromoned both Matt and Dakota to break them down)


Exactly, that adds to the disappointment of it all.

Quote:

His actions were immoral, not particularly heroic, but he is first and foremost a human being. I don't necessarily want a hero who's "better" than me or who provides a role model for the rest of us.


I don't know if I thought that Matt should be a model or "better" than me (of course, I never thought he could even become morally worse, to the point that one is forced to say "oh, look, he's so human" when one sees him doing something so despicable as cheating on his wife in such a prosaic and insipid manner). I just know that he's is no longer the character I liked.

That said, I'll wait to see how the thing develops.
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harryhausen
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man. I feel as if I have been (almost) the lone voice of dissent about the Brubaker/Lark direction of late. [You’ll recall that I don’t dislike it, just that a few things about it always bothered me.] That said, I loved this issue!

I don’t necessarily like the development of Matt and Dakota, but it makes lots of sense. I had hoped that it would blossom and they would get close, but they would show that tense restraint (like Batman and Catwoman when written best) until the Milla thing was settled – she was ‘cured’ and they were divorced or she was dead or .. or .. something. I maybe even hoped Dakota would rebuff him. But, man, I like Dakota so much more than I ever liked Milla….

I’m worried that Gloria is right, though. I think Dakota might be slated to die. Could Brubaker have thrown us off the scent by having her almost die from the gunshot wound? If she’s not got a solo series slated, she might get waxed by Lady Bullseye. You know, Bullseyes always kill Matt’s ladies, right?

Speaking of (and much to my surprise), I also like Lady Bullseye and the new, cautious Hand. How did she get her training? I’m curious to see how she went from child captive/sex slave to badass fighting machine. And the connection to the “real” Bullseye is intriguing.

And…..Francesco has some good points. I was really bothered when Matt cheated on Karen with Typhoid Mary. And this is maybe even colder, what with the insanity angle. Matt is definitely not the upstanding hero sort (like Superman or Barry Allen, even my main man, Wally West these days – though his days may be numbered!). It’s weird and hard to accept, but I’ll take it for now……

And I really liked Clay Mann’s pencils. Spot on!

Wow! DD is back on the top of my stack on those Special Wednesdays!
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vtsoxfan7
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Heck, no one remembers the Widow storyarc? In it, he had practically broken with Milla, having been requested to sign the annulment by her lawyers. He returns home at night along with the Widow, after having kicked Jigsaw's butt, and there is this uber-sexy Russian redhead, all hot and ready to comfort him any way he wants.
They're about to lock lips but he stops. He can't do it, because of the simple reason that he still loves Milla and still feels married to her (and I might add, the Widow understands and respects that).


I actually had not thought of this, and I think it is something else to consider, however I'm not sure you can really compare the two situations. When Matt 'passed' on Black Widow he was very much trying to come to terms with the fact that HE was not wanted. That particular situaiton with Milla requesting the divorce had nothing to do with how he felt. There was still the potential for her to change her mind and they could then go on to live 'happily ever after' so to speak (but hey, it's comics so we all know that wouldn't happen anyway).

This situation with Dakota is much murkier. Matt no doubt still loves Milla but she is not the same woman with that same hopeful future. Milla's in the looney bin and Matt has been told there is no cure for her current condition for the foreseeable future. I can easily see where it may be easier for him to stray in this instance (again, not that it's right) because there isn't currently the possibility of that same happy ending.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsoxfan7 wrote:
This situation with Dakota is much murkier. Matt no doubt still loves Milla but she is not the same woman with that same hopeful future. Milla's in the looney bin and Matt has been told there is no cure for her current condition for the foreseeable future. I can easily see where it may be easier for him to stray in this instance (again, not that it's right) because there isn't currently the possibility of that same happy ending.

Indeed, good point. That makes a huge difference, I think.
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