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Daredevil #111 discussion
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsoxfan7 wrote:

When Matt 'passed' on Black Widow he was very much trying to come to terms with the fact that HE was not wanted. That particular situaiton with Milla requesting the divorce had nothing to do with how he felt. There was still the potential for her to change her mind and they could then go on to live 'happily ever after' so to speak (but hey, it's comics so we all know that wouldn't happen anyway).


Right, but you know what does this imply, don't you? Basically we're saying that staying faithful to a woman he knows he's married to depends only on her potential availability? That is quite miserable.
I think it's more a matter of personal truths, of moral boundaries. That's why I think the two situations are comparable.
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like harryhausen, I also like Dakota a lot better than I ever liked Milla. That marriage always seemed like it was shoehorned into the book.

Of course what Matt did was wrong, but I saw it coming. It came a little sooner than I expected, and it did seem like he was being controlled by an outside force.

But really, women have always been Matt's weakness. When he was with Heather Glenn, he was hung up on Elektra. Don't tell me that if Elektra gave him the chance he wouldn't have cheated on Heather. But Elektra didn't, so it didn't happen.

Also, didn't Heather come in the middle of Matt's relationship with Natasha?

The Typhoid thing is different, because she was using her powers to manipulate Matt. But I recently reread #297, and Matt, while he's trying to restart things with Karen, throws himself at Typhoid and beds her. But it's all part of his larger plan to have her committed and remove her as one of Kingpin's pawns. Still...

I do think that Matt is a tremendously noble and upstanding individual. However his lovelife has always been where he falters. Brubaker is maintaining that I think. Matt takes responsibility for his actions and his sins, all the while screwing up his relationships. Makes for great reading.

By the way, nobody has mentioned the murder headline at the end of the issue. Nice development! Should make both Matt and Daredevil's life absolute hell. Obviously he's going to have to find and shake up the witness and get the truth, but that headline means damage is done.

Great issue!
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Right, but you know what does this imply, don't you? Basically we're saying that staying faithful to a woman he knows he's married to depends only on her potential availability?

I will say this. My biggest moral problem with what Matt did isn't that he did it, but that it happened so soon. I think it's been about two to three months since Milla was institutionalized (#106 takes place a month after #105, some amount of time passes between #106 and #107, the Cruel and Unusual arc happens in a few days, and now we've been told that it's been a few weeks since Dakota was shot). That is not long enough for him to be thinking about other women.

However, your comment got me thinking in terms of hypothetical what-ifs? If Milla's condition hasn't improved in a year, would you then be morally okay with him filing for divorce? (Setting aside that this could be complicated since I assume he's probably her legal guardian.) If no, what about five years? Should marriage be until death do us part, no matter what? Should he be morally bound for life to a person with whom he can't have any kind of normal marriage and can't even go to visit? Is being faithful a principle that overrides everything else?

As wrong as his doing what he did was, particularly because of how little time has passed, part of me felt a little happy that he got to feel good about something for a change. I know, big shocker. The thing is, I don't even see this as a sign of a lack of commitment to Milla, though I suppose we will see how the events unfold. But in his mind, his wife is irretrievably lost to him. Being with her is an option that is not only remote, it doesn't even exist.

Ultimately, this is about good people sometimes doing things that are wrong. It happens all the time, and I never thought of this as something Matt would never do. I may take this more lightly than you because of personal circumstance in my own past (no, I never cheated on anyone...), but we can discuss that in the chat. Wink
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:

However, your comment got me thinking in terms of hypothetical what-ifs? If Milla's condition hasn't improved in a year, would you then be morally okay with him filing for divorce? (Setting aside that this could be complicated since I assume he's probably her legal guardian.) If no, what about five years? Should marriage be until death do us part, no matter what? Should he be morally bound for life to a person with whom he can't have any kind of normal marriage and can't even go to visit? Is being faithful a principle that overrides everything else?


No neat answer can be given. To a person who firmly believes in the importance of the bond to his/her significant other, marriage could well be for life, even (or especially) in those circumstances.
To a person who doesn't care about it, one could just go and jump into the bed with another person the very moment after the mate becomes unavailable.
In between these two extremes there all the other varieties of reaction.
I'll just say that the Matt Murdock I love to read would've been closer to the former extreme.

Quote:
but we can discuss that in the chat. Wink


Whenever you want Wink.

P.S.

I'll paste here what I've replied to you in Warren's blog, so that the discussion doesn't become too dispersed:

F wrote:
I think Brubaker should've explored more about this "loneliness", "being disheartened and lonely" angle.
One can certainly explain the deed with that. But upon re-reading the issue, almost nothing of that angle was properly addressed.
So far this whole aspect seems just a "post-eventum" interpretation given by readers.


Last edited by Francesco on Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
I'll paste here what I've replied to you in Warren's blog, so that the discussion doesn't become too dispersed:

F wrote:
I think Brubaker should've explored more about this "loneliness", "being disheartened and lonely" angle.
One can certainly explain the deed with that. But upon re-reading the issue, almost nothing of that angle was properly addressed.
So far this whole aspect seems just a "post-eventum" interpretation given by readers.

Yes, I replied already. Wink

To me, asking someone to stay in a marriage that doesn't exist is too extreme. He would then be doing it solely on principle (he would not benefit, and neither would Milla), and I think I'm much too pragmatic for that. I do feel that this happened too soon, although that also kind of makes it more spur of the moment. He got caught up in something, and he absolutely regrets it. Not as much as he feels he should, but nevertheless. I think this devlopment is incredibly intriguing, and I hope to learn more about what makes Matt tick as a result of it.

Dimetre mentioned the murder headline. I saw someone comment on some blog about how having Matt have legal problems was repetitive, but I think this will be what Lady B says, it'll keep him occupied for a few days. The accusation won't stick and there won't be any major ramifications, unless it wakes up all the people who wanted him behind bars to begin with and gets all of that in motion again. But there certainly are tons of different things going on at the same time in this arc...
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blacktyphoid
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:

I do think that Matt is a tremendously noble and upstanding individual. However his lovelife has always been where he falters. Brubaker is maintaining that I think. Matt takes responsibility for his actions and his sins, all the while screwing up his relationships. Makes for great reading.



jumonji" wrote:
As wrong as his doing what he did was, particularly because of how little time has passed, part of me felt a little happy that he got to feel good about something for a change. I know, big shocker. The thing is, I don't even see this as a sign of a lack of commitment to Milla, though I suppose we will see how the events unfold. But in his mind, his wife is irretrievably lost to him. Being with her is an option that is not only remote, it doesn't even exist.

Ultimately, this is about good people sometimes doing things that are wrong. It happens all the time, and I never thought of this as something Matt would never do.


I am fascinated by the sympathetic reactions Matt's infidelities are receiving from some of the women on our list. As shown above, you even go as far as justifying it.

Some of the men, like Francesco, are more disturbed by it than the women.

I must be living in Superman's Bizzaro world.

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jumonji
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops, triple post (that was weird...)
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
I am fascinated by the sympathetic reactions Matt's infidelities are receiving from some of the women on our list. As shown above, you even go as far as justifying it.

Hmm, not justifying it as much as understanding it, if that makes any sense. As for the women's perspective in all of this, maybe women are more prone to understanding that strange emotions can sometimes get the better of us? Wink

Gender stereotypes aside, I do feel very ambivalent about all of this, but I tend to be a very forgiving person and I like to extend my forgiveness to fictional characters as well. We'll see how Matt redeems himself in the next few issues.
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vtsoxfan7
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Right, but you know what does this imply, don't you? Basically we're saying that staying faithful to a woman he knows he's married to depends only on her potential availability? That is quite miserable.


I understand what you're saying, but I think your statement is oversimplifying the situation. The 'availability factor' is just one of many factors here that could contribute to Matt's acting the way he has.


jumonji wrote:
Hmm, not justifying it as much as understanding it, if that makes any sense.


I would have to agree. Whether we like it or not, agree with it or not, things like this happen everyday in today's society. Why shouldn't a very gray area be explored in a comic, let alone one that tends to have a more adult target audience such as DD?
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blacktyphoid
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsoxfan7 wrote:

jumonji wrote:
Hmm, not justifying it as much as understanding it, if that makes any sense.


I would have to agree. Whether we like it or not, agree with it or not, things like this happen everyday in today's society. Why shouldn't a very gray area be explored in a comic, let alone one that tends to have a more adult target audience such as DD?


Let's explore it. Absolutely! That's what we've been doing.

My comment wasn't about whether or not we should explore it; rather, it's about the interesting gender-based results of the exploration (thus far). Most of the female responses condon and/or accept Matt's adultery; there's even a sympathetic tone to the language. Whereas some of the male responses are highly critical of it. Personally, I would not have expected that type of gender-based outcome.

Besides, jumonji - all with all due respect - I think you're doing more than understanding it. I think you are condoning it.

Most of the women I know would condemn, not condone, Matt's actions - especially given the sad medical condition of his wife.

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