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Daredevil #111 discussion
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that anyone is necessarily condoning Matt's actions. And I don't think that the fact that Brubaker has had Matt sleep with Dakota should be seen as Brubaker condoning his actions either. Instead, he's having Matt make a choice which is at best morally questionable, and exploring the character by doing so.

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.


I don't know if you're referring to me with that, but I assure you that I've been having Matt's "in-character-ness" in mind all the time.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
Besides, jumonji - all with all due respect - I think you're doing more than understanding it. I think you are condoning it.

If I were condoning it, I would think that what he did was morally okay. I don't. I would have preferred that he hadn't gone that far honestly. Yes, I would have been more comfortable, as a fan of the character, if he had said "Sorry Dakota, I can't do this." I would have respected the character more for that, and I'm not 100% comfortable with how this all played out.

What I think I might be doing, is trying to preserve the character's inherent "goodness" in my mind. I want to understand why things happened this way, and I want to construct an idea in my mind that I'm comfortable with. I suppose you could call it a defense mechanism.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is Milla's condition in all of this. Some seem to feel that her condition makes Matt's philandering more "okay," whereas others feel the other way around. I'm in the former category. While I feel this development was much too fast for comfort, Matt has become sort of a pseudo-widower (did I just make up a new word?). I would have been much less comfortable with him being in a commited relationship that actually existed, as in composed of two people who live together and share the same bed, and then seeing him go off on the side and pick someone up in a bar. That is much more calculating in my mind, whereas this looks more like a person in grief seeking comfort. That's not condoning it, it's just trying to make sense of the chain of events.

In response to what Dave Wallace said, I agree that this isn't out of character for Matt. I'm still in the "Matt is (essentially) a nice person" corner, silly as that might sound, but he can be morally weak, and has been in the past as well.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
I don't know if you're referring to me with that, but I assure you that I've been having Matt's "in-character-ness" in mind all the time.

No, I wasn't referring to anyone specific. I just think that it's important to remember that we're talking about the actions of Matt as a character, rather than whether adultery is right or wrong in real life.

And I agree with jumonji, Milla's condition makes this a very different situation to the way it would have been if Matt was cheating on her whilst they were still in a healthy relationship.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've understood your point of view, but I sill think it's very out of character. I've always seen Matt as one who has the strength to put his personal feelings aside, especially when those he cares for are involved. Moreover, he's always shown to be very committed to his marriage with Milla, he's always said to take it very seriously, especially during Bendis' run.
Thi is what strikes me most.

The question now should be, what are his feelings towards Milla, really?
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
I've understood your point of view, but I sill think it's very out of character. I've always seen Matt as one who has the strength to put his personal feelings aside, especially when those he cares for are involved. Moreover, he's always shown to be very committed to his marriage with Milla, he's always said to take it very seriously, especially during Bendis' run.
Thi is what strikes me most.

That's true, Matt has always been shown to take his marriage very seriously. Obviously Milla's condition has changed their relationship, but I don't think that it would make Matt take their marriage lightly. I think that his instant regret after spending the night with Dakota shows that he still takes his commitment to Milla seriously and is very mindful of the fact that what he did done was wrong - that romantic and sexual feelings got the better of him, and he broke his promises to Milla as a result.

Francesco wrote:
The question now should be, what are his feelings towards Milla, really?

Yes, hopefully this is something that we'll see Brubaker explore in future issues. I'm hoping that she'll still be an important character in the book for some time to come.
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vtsoxfan7
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
Another thing I'd like to bring up is Milla's condition in all of this. Some seem to feel that her condition makes Matt's philandering more "okay," whereas others feel the other way around. I'm in the former category. While I feel this development was much too fast for comfort, Matt has become sort of a pseudo-widower (did I just make up a new word?). I would have been much less comfortable with him being in a commited relationship that actually existed, as in composed of two people who live together and share the same bed, and then seeing him go off on the side and pick someone up in a bar. That is much more calculating in my mind, whereas this looks more like a person in grief seeking comfort. That's not condoning it, it's just trying to make sense of the chain of events.


Thank you for clarifying the point I was trying to make when I said the Widow and Dakota situations were different...You did a much better job of putting it into words.
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blacktyphoid
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.


Dave, I think you're great but I have to disagree with you on this point. You can't separate the two (is it right or wrong?/is it in character?) because those two issues taken together get to the core of Matt's being and his moral base - especially when it comes to his relationships with women. It's the fact that the two are connected that makes the questions so interesting - and challenging.

I believe Francesco has seamlessly connected the two points. (Not that he needs me to defend him), but I think Francesco's condemnation of Matt's infidelity is precisely connected to the fact that it is wrong in two ways: one: it is immoral (no ifs, ands or buts about it!); two: it is out of step with Matt's character. That's what I believe makes Francesco's argument (whether you agree with it or not) so interesting - Francesco draws a moral line in Matt's being and has determined that it's been shattered through his tryst with Dakota. Well done, man!

Btw, I disagree with Francesco. I think Matt's history with women demonstrates an uneven, complex and erratic sexual morality. With Typhoid Mary (as someone else highlighted) it was demonstrated that he'll stoop to the depths of sexual manipulation and deceit; yet with Black Widow, he'll avoid temptation and adultery. In other words, it's very difficult to determine whether or not his tryst with Dakota is out of character. His tryst simply adds another chapter to his complicated use of sex.

Btw, it's the connection between "is it right or wrong/is it in character" that creates so much fascination about Matt's own complex, moral dilemma. He knows sex with Dakota was wrong, yet he doesn't feel as bad about it as he should (which perhaps makes him feels worse). That's complicated stuff.

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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:

I think that some people are getting hung up on whether it's right or wrong for Matt to do this, when I think that the more interesting question is whether it's in-character for Matt do to this. And I think it is.


Dave, I think you're great but I have to disagree with you on this point. You can't separate the two (is it right or wrong?/is it in character?) because those two issues taken together get to the core of Matt's being and his moral base - especially when it comes to his relationships with women. It's the fact that the two are connected that makes the questions so interesting - and challenging.

You're right, of course - and I didn't make myself very clear in my earlier post. What I meant to say was that the question of whether it's right or wrong shouldn't be directly equated with the question of whether it's in-character for Matt to do it. Matt doesn't always do the right thing.
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Lucrezia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:
If Matt was perfect, then yes, he wouldn't commit adultery. But he's not. I think it's an interesting angle to explore with the character.


Of course Matt's not perfect, Dave. But, apart from the fact that suffering doesn't automatically justify you to do such actions, I think that Matt Murdock, hero of the book, should stand out a little from what "others would do".
He's supposed to be something more than the average female protagonist of romance novels you find in supermarkets, he's supposed to endure.

Heck, no one remembers the Widow storyarc? In it, he had practically broken with Milla, having been requested to sign the annulment by her lawyers. He returns home at night along with the Widow, after having kicked Jigsaw's butt, and there is this uber-sexy Russian redhead, all hot and ready to comfort him any way he wants.
They're about to lock lips but he stops. He can't do it, because of the simple reason that he still loves Milla and still feels married to her (and I might add, the Widow understands and respects that).

Now, I'm not saying that there should be coherence in this, that Matt should always behave one way because he did that before. God forbid it, in real life people continuously change their mind and ways of behaving.
I'll just say that I liked that portrayal of Matt better than this one.






If Matt had simply turned Natasha down due to some high minded self-righteousness and to make himself feel good. I could have understood his behaviour in this issue. But the fact is that prior to Natasha tunring up, we had this big long speech about how seriously Matt took marriage very seriously and it was part of his moral fiber and who he is. I took him to be sincere.


Please note, Matt wasn't drunk, he wasn't stonned, it wasn't as if his wife had been gone a long time and he was very lonely or suffering from 'abscence'. It wasn't as if the whole thing was done in the heat of the momment they actually took time to get up stairs to the bedroom. That means that he actually took time to think about what he was doing.




I have always had a big problem with Brubaker's run on DD. I used to think that it was merely due to the ho-hum storytelling. But I came to the conclusion that it has a lot to do with Brubaker's treatment of the character. Under Bendis DD was very disciplined and controlled. Brubaker has him throwing temper tantrums. Under Bendis DD/Matt believed in the sanctity of marriage. Under Brubaker, Matt can't wait to unzip his fly at the first opportunity. He's now reduced to being no better than a lecherous swine like DC's Green Arrow or Arsenal. A man devoid of character, integrity and given to following his lustful impulses. That's not a hero.

I was extreemely disapointed with this book. Very disaspointed. And very dissolusioned. Up until now I had considered DD one of the few characters I could personally identify with. He wasn't perfect and did wrong things , sometimes due to fear sometimes out of the greater good. But he never struck me as being deliberatly reprehensible. I really don't see how Matt can be redeemed in this situation. Not at all.


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Francesco
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:


I have always had a big problem with Brubaker's run on DD. I used to think that it was merely due to the ho-hum storytelling. But I came to the conclusion that it has a lot to do with Brubaker's treatment of the character. Under Bendis DD was very disciplined and controlled. Brubaker has him throwing temper tantrums. Under Bendis DD/Matt believed in the sanctity of marriage. Under Brubaker, Matt can't wait to unzip his fly at the first opportunity. He's now reduced to being no better than a lecherous swine like DC's Green Arrow or Arsenal. A man devoid of character, integrity and given to following his lustful impulses. That's not a hero.


Interesting points, but I was told that one cannot even miss Bendis these days, because they come and belittle you basing solely on superficial interpretations of your opinions and on the assumption that their opinion about Bendis is the definitive one.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no, I thought Bendis' run on the book was great. Some of his best ever work.
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Darediva
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fascinated by the way this Matt/Dakota pairing has really brought in a big discussion of Matt Murdock's morals.

As far as the story here goes, it's brilliant writing by Brubaker, brought to life by the very adept pencils of Clay Mann and the superior inking of Stefano Gaudiano, with perfect colors by Matt Hollingsworth. Can it get any better than this? This team has knocked it out of the ballpark, folks.

One thing I've always liked about the character is his moral ambiguity on certain points. It "disappoints" me to see Matt bed Dakota when he's got a wife in a mental facility. I use quotes here, because I think it's terribly wrong in real life. Marriage vows are supposed to be a serious thing, and I believe they are. Did this upset me when I saw Matt and Dakota doin' the horizontal tango? A lot in the morals department according to my own personal values, but we are talking about a character whose moral compass sometimes gets into the wrong electromagnetic field and takes him off course.

The thing that keeps me loving the guy is that he DOES know it's wrong, and he feels guilty about it enough to seek forgiveness on some level eventually. That's what makes his story interesting. His emotions get the better of him sometimes.

I don't consider him "Matt the pimp" like I've heard on other boards. Quite the contrary. We've talked about this at length before: Matt the horndog vs. Matt the serial monogamist. He's got his human failings, but he's not a player, in my opinion.

Another thing I find entertaining is that many who are crying foul at Matt and Dakota succumbing to lust, don't seem to see anything at all wrong with a single Matt "living in sin" with Natasha back in San Francisco or with Karen in NY. If you are defining things by religious benchmarks, that's not very moral either.

Aside from the Catholic guilt aspect, how good is this story getting? A new villian, with a lot of prospect that is surprising many of the naysayers, and some guest appearances from other Marvel heroes. My thanks to the crew on #111 for an excellent issue overall, that has given us something to talk about once again.

Only one beef, and it's a small one. Becky got her new set of wheels that are up to date now, and that goes a long way for me in how well the artists do their research. Now, will you DD artists please give Matt a white cane that is realistically useful? It's way too short! The basic standard is at least as tall as the person's sternum, and if you go by some newer trends, even as tall as the person's armpit. No, I'm not being Freudian here. A white cane is measured for you determined by your height and the length of your stride. It's for giving information two steps ahead of you. *steps off soapbox*

Note to Clay Mann: your interiors rock! The perspectives are awesome, and your detail is superb. Not to mention that you've pulled off the sexiest scene in the book since Natasha showed up in Matt's bed with those fishnets. Here, let me buy you some new pencils Shocked
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Lucrezia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darediva wrote:
I'm fascinated by the way this Matt/Dakota pairing has really brought in a big discussion of Matt Murdock's morals.

As far as the story here goes, it's brilliant writing by Brubaker, brought to life by the very adept pencils of Clay Mann and the superior inking of Stefano Gaudiano, with perfect colors by Matt Hollingsworth. Can it get any better than this? This team has knocked it out of the ballpark, folks.



I frankly see nothing 'brilliant' about it. As I mentioned above Matt has already explained in a previous issue his feelings about marriage and how valuable it is to him. He had ample opportunity to go to bed with Natasha but turned it down, because it was wrong and he realised that he still loved his wife.

Now in this issue we see that to be the exact opposite.

A good comic book writer knows how to take a character and write a story around them. They don't change the character mid-stream so that the character fits the story they want to tell. That's lazy and sloppy writing and not at all creative.

If Brubaker really had wanted this story to make sense and not look like a disservice to the characaters principles. He should have had Matt and Dakota go out to dinner, drink too much alchohol and then go to bed. Then that would have made sense--he did it because he was drunk, and he really could legitimately question 'what he had done'. It would have not negated Matt's views on marriage. But having Matt go to bed with Dakota when he was stone cold sobber and well aware of what he was doing now makes the character look like a hypocrite and a pig.

Darediva wrote:



Another thing I find entertaining is that many who are crying foul at Matt and Dakota succumbing to lust, don't seem to see anything at all wrong with a single Matt "living in sin" with Natasha back in San Francisco or with Karen in NY. If you are defining things by religious benchmarks, that's not very moral either.




There's a huge difference. First of all Matt wasn't married to Karen or Natasha and had not made a commitement to them to be faithful. He wasn't cheating on them (to my knowledge anyway---I am mostly familiar with the character via Bendis).

Second of all the married life can be very boring to watch. It's why so few superheroes are married and why soap opera couples are forever getting married and divorced.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
That's what I believe makes Francesco's argument (whether you agree with it or not) so interesting - Francesco draws a moral line in Matt's being and has determined that it's been shattered through his tryst with Dakota. Well done, man!


Thanks, buddy!
Quote:

Btw, I disagree with Francesco.


Aw, nuts...

Quote:
I think Matt's history with women demonstrates an uneven, complex and erratic sexual morality.


True.
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