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Daredevil #111 discussion
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:


I have always had a big problem with Brubaker's run on DD. I used to think that it was merely due to the ho-hum storytelling. But I came to the conclusion that it has a lot to do with Brubaker's treatment of the character. Under Bendis DD was very disciplined and controlled. Brubaker has him throwing temper tantrums. Under Bendis DD/Matt believed in the sanctity of marriage. Under Brubaker, Matt can't wait to unzip his fly at the first opportunity. He's now reduced to being no better than a lecherous swine like DC's Green Arrow or Arsenal. A man devoid of character, integrity and given to following his lustful impulses. That's not a hero.


Interesting points, but I was told that one cannot even miss Bendis these days, because they come and belittle you basing solely on superficial interpretations of your opinions and on the assumption that their opinion about Bendis is the definitive one.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no, I thought Bendis' run on the book was great. Some of his best ever work.
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Darediva
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fascinated by the way this Matt/Dakota pairing has really brought in a big discussion of Matt Murdock's morals.

As far as the story here goes, it's brilliant writing by Brubaker, brought to life by the very adept pencils of Clay Mann and the superior inking of Stefano Gaudiano, with perfect colors by Matt Hollingsworth. Can it get any better than this? This team has knocked it out of the ballpark, folks.

One thing I've always liked about the character is his moral ambiguity on certain points. It "disappoints" me to see Matt bed Dakota when he's got a wife in a mental facility. I use quotes here, because I think it's terribly wrong in real life. Marriage vows are supposed to be a serious thing, and I believe they are. Did this upset me when I saw Matt and Dakota doin' the horizontal tango? A lot in the morals department according to my own personal values, but we are talking about a character whose moral compass sometimes gets into the wrong electromagnetic field and takes him off course.

The thing that keeps me loving the guy is that he DOES know it's wrong, and he feels guilty about it enough to seek forgiveness on some level eventually. That's what makes his story interesting. His emotions get the better of him sometimes.

I don't consider him "Matt the pimp" like I've heard on other boards. Quite the contrary. We've talked about this at length before: Matt the horndog vs. Matt the serial monogamist. He's got his human failings, but he's not a player, in my opinion.

Another thing I find entertaining is that many who are crying foul at Matt and Dakota succumbing to lust, don't seem to see anything at all wrong with a single Matt "living in sin" with Natasha back in San Francisco or with Karen in NY. If you are defining things by religious benchmarks, that's not very moral either.

Aside from the Catholic guilt aspect, how good is this story getting? A new villian, with a lot of prospect that is surprising many of the naysayers, and some guest appearances from other Marvel heroes. My thanks to the crew on #111 for an excellent issue overall, that has given us something to talk about once again.

Only one beef, and it's a small one. Becky got her new set of wheels that are up to date now, and that goes a long way for me in how well the artists do their research. Now, will you DD artists please give Matt a white cane that is realistically useful? It's way too short! The basic standard is at least as tall as the person's sternum, and if you go by some newer trends, even as tall as the person's armpit. No, I'm not being Freudian here. A white cane is measured for you determined by your height and the length of your stride. It's for giving information two steps ahead of you. *steps off soapbox*

Note to Clay Mann: your interiors rock! The perspectives are awesome, and your detail is superb. Not to mention that you've pulled off the sexiest scene in the book since Natasha showed up in Matt's bed with those fishnets. Here, let me buy you some new pencils Shocked
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Lucrezia
Flying Blind


Joined: 28 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darediva wrote:
I'm fascinated by the way this Matt/Dakota pairing has really brought in a big discussion of Matt Murdock's morals.

As far as the story here goes, it's brilliant writing by Brubaker, brought to life by the very adept pencils of Clay Mann and the superior inking of Stefano Gaudiano, with perfect colors by Matt Hollingsworth. Can it get any better than this? This team has knocked it out of the ballpark, folks.



I frankly see nothing 'brilliant' about it. As I mentioned above Matt has already explained in a previous issue his feelings about marriage and how valuable it is to him. He had ample opportunity to go to bed with Natasha but turned it down, because it was wrong and he realised that he still loved his wife.

Now in this issue we see that to be the exact opposite.

A good comic book writer knows how to take a character and write a story around them. They don't change the character mid-stream so that the character fits the story they want to tell. That's lazy and sloppy writing and not at all creative.

If Brubaker really had wanted this story to make sense and not look like a disservice to the characaters principles. He should have had Matt and Dakota go out to dinner, drink too much alchohol and then go to bed. Then that would have made sense--he did it because he was drunk, and he really could legitimately question 'what he had done'. It would have not negated Matt's views on marriage. But having Matt go to bed with Dakota when he was stone cold sobber and well aware of what he was doing now makes the character look like a hypocrite and a pig.

Darediva wrote:



Another thing I find entertaining is that many who are crying foul at Matt and Dakota succumbing to lust, don't seem to see anything at all wrong with a single Matt "living in sin" with Natasha back in San Francisco or with Karen in NY. If you are defining things by religious benchmarks, that's not very moral either.




There's a huge difference. First of all Matt wasn't married to Karen or Natasha and had not made a commitement to them to be faithful. He wasn't cheating on them (to my knowledge anyway---I am mostly familiar with the character via Bendis).

Second of all the married life can be very boring to watch. It's why so few superheroes are married and why soap opera couples are forever getting married and divorced.
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
That's what I believe makes Francesco's argument (whether you agree with it or not) so interesting - Francesco draws a moral line in Matt's being and has determined that it's been shattered through his tryst with Dakota. Well done, man!


Thanks, buddy!
Quote:

Btw, I disagree with Francesco.


Aw, nuts...

Quote:
I think Matt's history with women demonstrates an uneven, complex and erratic sexual morality.


True.
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Darediva
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:
Darediva wrote:
I'm fascinated by the way this Matt/Dakota pairing has really brought in a big discussion of Matt Murdock's morals.

As far as the story here goes, it's brilliant writing by Brubaker, brought to life by the very adept pencils of Clay Mann and the superior inking of Stefano Gaudiano, with perfect colors by Matt Hollingsworth. Can it get any better than this? This team has knocked it out of the ballpark, folks.



I frankly see nothing 'brilliant' about it. As I mentioned above Matt has already explained in a previous issue his feelings about marriage and how valuable it is to him. He had ample opportunity to go to bed with Natasha but turned it down, because it was wrong and he realised that he still loved his wife.

Now in this issue we see that to be the exact opposite.

A good comic book writer knows how to take a character and write a story around them. They don't change the character mid-stream so that the character fits the story they want to tell. That's lazy and sloppy writing and not at all creative.


I beg to differ with you here. I don't see where Brubaker has changed the character at all. Some history has developed in the story, and some situations are very different from the time Matt turned down Natasha. People get caught up in the moment, for good or bad. It doesn't fundamentally change the character for them to have a lapse in judgment.

Lucrezia wrote:
If Brubaker really had wanted this story to make sense and not look like a disservice to the characaters principles. He should have had Matt and Dakota go out to dinner, drink too much alchohol and then go to bed. Then that would have made sense--he did it because he was drunk, and he really could legitimately question 'what he had done'. It would have not negated Matt's views on marriage. But having Matt go to bed with Dakota when he was stone cold sobber and well aware of what he was doing now makes the character look like a hypocrite and a pig.


Then, it would have been fine and dandy if they had been drunk? I don't follow. A lapse in judgment is still a lapse in judgment. Besides, how many times have you seen Matt get drunk? That could be considered "out of character" in and of itself.

Lucrezia wrote:
Darediva wrote:



Another thing I find entertaining is that many who are crying foul at Matt and Dakota succumbing to lust, don't seem to see anything at all wrong with a single Matt "living in sin" with Natasha back in San Francisco or with Karen in NY. If you are defining things by religious benchmarks, that's not very moral either.





There's a huge difference. First of all Matt wasn't married to Karen or Natasha and had not made a commitement to them to be faithful. He wasn't cheating on them (to my knowledge anyway---I am mostly familiar with the character via Bendis).

Second of all the married life can be very boring to watch. It's why so few superheroes are married and why soap opera couples are forever getting married and divorced.


I guess there's a huge difference between adultery and fornication, then, by most standards, unless you figure in religious ones, where they are both considered a wrongdoing.

Yes, we all know how boring marriage is to watch. So, when adultery happens on a soap opera, it's expected, but when it happens in a comic book, it's blasphemous?

Again, I don't condone what Matt has done in the least. I just don't find it to be totally OOC either.
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Lucrezia
Flying Blind


Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Darediva"]
Lucrezia wrote:
Darediva wrote:
I'm fascinated by the way this Matt/Dakota pairing has really brought in a big discussion of Matt Murdock's morals.

As far as the story here goes, it's brilliant writing by Brubaker, brought to life by the very adept pencils of Clay Mann and the superior inking of Stefano Gaudiano, with perfect colors by Matt Hollingsworth. Can it get any better than this? This team has knocked it out of the ballpark, folks.



I frankly see nothing 'brilliant' about it. As I mentioned above Matt has already explained in a previous issue his feelings about marriage and how valuable it is to him. He had ample opportunity to go to bed with Natasha but turned it down, because it was wrong and he realised that he still loved his wife.

Now in this issue we see that to be the exact opposite.

A good comic book writer knows how to take a character and write a story around them. They don't change the character mid-stream so that the character fits the story they want to tell. That's lazy and sloppy writing and not at all creative.




Darediva wrote:

I beg to differ with you here. I don't see where Brubaker has changed the character at all. Some history has developed in the story, and some situations are very different from the time Matt turned down Natasha. People get caught up in the moment, for good or bad. It doesn't fundamentally change the character for them to have a lapse in judgment.


Yes it does. Go back and read issue #61. In that issue Matt says:

Quote:


Ö..Then I resist the urge to go over there and yell at her how marriage is a sacred bond that I do not take lightly.


Itís clear that marriage means a lot to Matt and it is something that is sacred to him. And this is further demonstrated when in issue #63 & #64 when Matt has ample opportunity to go to bed with Natasha and he turns her down. Why? because he made a vow to his wife to be faithful and to honour his marriage. I can not remember reading in one DD book since that time that shows that Mattís view on marriage has changed.

Maybe you can provide the book name and issue number where Matt has decided that marriage is something he no longer takes seriously, and that adultery is fine.





Darediva wrote:



Then, it would have been fine and dandy if they had been drunk? I don't follow. A lapse in judgment is still a lapse in judgment. Besides, how many times have you seen Matt get drunk? That could be considered "out of character" in and of itself.


There is a difference between a lapse in judgment between someone who is sober and someone who is inebriated. Iíve seen many instances where Matt has drunk wine (I presume) or some sort of alcohol. It would have not been out of character for Matt to have gone out to dinner and allowed his guard to slip (like he did with his client in Elektra Lives) and go home to bed with Dakota.


It doesnít make sense for someone, who at least under Bendis, was extremely disciplined and controlled and who took his marriage vows seriously, to suddenly decide that he wants to be unfaithful.

But maybe Iím missing something here. Maybe I skipped over an issue where Daredevil/Matt Murdock says that infidelity is perfectly fine.

[quote="Darediva"]
I guess there's a huge difference between adultery and fornication, then, by most standards, unless you figure in religious ones, where they are both considered a wrongdoing.

Darediva wrote:


Yes, we all know how boring marriage is to watch. So, when adultery happens on a soap opera, it's expected, but when it happens in a comic book, it's blasphemous?


Thatís your statement, not mine. It's completely un-related to the statement I originally made.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, welcome to the board Lucrezia!

Secondly, the difference (as I see it) in terms of what Matt's relationship with Milla is now as opposed to when he turned down Natasha is that he is now married to a woman who barely knows he exists and whom he's not allowed to see or interact with in anyway, and she is showing no progress whatsoever. That does not make the marriage not exist, but it sure changes things. A lot. If heartbreak like that doesn't open you up to all kinds of things you wouldn't do if things were different, I don't know what does.

Thirdly, Matt has cheated in the past. He had an affair with Typhoid Mary (in her less "typhoid" form) while he was living with Karen Page. Sure, he was under the influence of her voodoo, but the whole thing seemed pretty cold to me. The difference there was that he was sleeping with one person and then going home to another. I wasn't a particularly big fan of that develpment, which I considered to be a worse situation than the one he is in now. The fact that he is married to Milla, and wasn't married to Karen doesn't matter at all to me personally. What Matt has done is not right, and it's not what a lot of us would like to see him do, but it is not out of character as I see it. Nor does it mean that he doesn't take what he did very seriously. I'm looking forward to seeing how he handles this in the next few issues.
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Darediva
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:



Darediva wrote:

I beg to differ with you here. I don't see where Brubaker has changed the character at all. Some history has developed in the story, and some situations are very different from the time Matt turned down Natasha. People get caught up in the moment, for good or bad. It doesn't fundamentally change the character for them to have a lapse in judgment.


Yes it does. Go back and read issue #61. In that issue Matt says:

Quote:


Ö..Then I resist the urge to go over there and yell at her how marriage is a sacred bond that I do not take lightly.


Itís clear that marriage means a lot to Matt and it is something that is sacred to him. And this is further demonstrated when in issue #63 & #64 when Matt has ample opportunity to go to bed with Natasha and he turns her down. Why? because he made a vow to his wife to be faithful and to honour his marriage. I can not remember reading in one DD book since that time that shows that Mattís view on marriage has changed.

Maybe you can provide the book name and issue number where Matt has decided that marriage is something he no longer takes seriously, and that adultery is fine.


I never said that Matt's views on the sanctity of marriage changed. What I did say was that it is not a change in character for a person to have a lapse in judgment. People screw up all the time. It's human nature.


Lucrezia wrote:

Darediva wrote:



Then, it would have been fine and dandy if they had been drunk? I don't follow. A lapse in judgment is still a lapse in judgment. Besides, how many times have you seen Matt get drunk? That could be considered "out of character" in and of itself.


There is a difference between a lapse in judgment between someone who is sober and someone who is inebriated. Iíve seen many instances where Matt has drunk wine (I presume) or some sort of alcohol. It would have not been out of character for Matt to have gone out to dinner and allowed his guard to slip (like he did with his client in Elektra Lives) and go home to bed with Dakota.


It doesnít make sense for someone, who at least under Bendis, was extremely disciplined and controlled and who took his marriage vows seriously, to suddenly decide that he wants to be unfaithful.

But maybe Iím missing something here. Maybe I skipped over an issue where Daredevil/Matt Murdock says that infidelity is perfectly fine.


Yes, we have seen Matt with a glass of wine or brandy or something on occasion. The dinner with Vanessa Fisk comes to mind to me first. I'm not saying that Matt's a teetotaler. He has not been shown to get totally plastered anywhere that I can remember, though. Even if he did, no big deal as far as his character goes.

I don't quite understand how it would make it a difference for him to bang Dakota whether he was inebriated or not. He's still committing the adulterous act. And he would be regretful in either instance, only moreso had he been drunk, because he'd be hung over.

Bendis probably wrote a lot more out of character stuff about Matt Murdock than anyone else in recent memory. (Overturned limo, anyone?) I still like his stories.

I believe that there will be plenty of repercussions for Matt and Dakota for letting the urge overtake the both of them. For shame on them both! Especially after Becky warned Dakota!

Oh, and welcome to the board. I'm a little remiss with my welcome wagon basket these days. Glad to have you here!
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Dave Wallace
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darediva wrote:
Yes, we have seen Matt with a glass of wine or brandy or something on occasion. The dinner with Vanessa Fisk comes to mind to me first. I'm not saying that Matt's a teetotaler. He has not been shown to get totally plastered anywhere that I can remember, though. Even if he did, no big deal as far as his character goes.

The only time I really remember seeing Matt get a little tipsy is from the stand-alone issue a little while back (just after the Mr. Fear arc) that showed Matt getting into a bar-fight - I think that it was implied that he was a little drunk then.

But to be honest, I don't know why some people would prefer Matt to have been drunk on this occasion: to me, that would feel cheap, and would feel like Brubaker was trying to excuse Matt. Instead, Brubaker has had him make this decision with his eyes open - and it's a far more interesting development for it.

Ultimately, I agree with Darediva: I don't think it's out of character for Matt to have this kind of lapse of judgement. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with it in future issues.
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