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Daredevil #111 discussion
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jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
But to be honest, I don't know why some people would prefer Matt to have been drunk on this occasion: to me, that would feel cheap, and would feel like Brubaker was trying to excuse Matt. Instead, Brubaker has had him make this decision with his eyes open - and it's a far more interesting development for it.

Another thing... If Matt and Dakota had actually gone to dinner together and downed a couple of bottles of wine, wouldn't that have seemed more planned out or something? I'm not saying that friends can't have dinner with friends of the opposite sex - I do all the time - but if we're talking about an actual date here, that shows some amount of romantic intent. The way it played out, they were spending the day together, but it was innocent enough until they were both overcome by emotion (some of it good ol' horniness). So yes, Matt does go into it knowingly, but it also seems very spur of the moment.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, good point.
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Kirika
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Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been kinda quiet on this one for two reasons. 1) I have actually enjoyed reading the banter going back and forth. 2) I have been busy trying to get rid of a guy who--oddly fitting for the discussion--cheated on me.

As far as Matt cheating on Milla, I can't say that I in any way shape or form condone cheating, but I can understand it. If you really stop and think about it, how alone must Matt feel? Everyone he has cared about has been taken from him at one point or another. They always seem to be at odds with his "real" life and his persona as Daredevil. Can't you see how tempting it must be to have someone just simply forgive him and accept the way his life is? Oh, it is still a terrible thing to do, and I don't think anyone here has said that it isn't. Just that it's understandable. I don't think anyone is giving Matt a free pass on this one. God knows, I DON'T. Personally, I think cheating should be grounds for at least one good kick in the jewels, but that might be vindictiveness talking. However, I don't think that anyone who looks at the way Matt's life has been can say that it is completely out of character.

Also, I agree with what Dave said...

Dave Wallace wrote:


But to be honest, I don't know why some people would prefer Matt to have been drunk on this occasion: to me, that would feel cheap, and would feel like Brubaker was trying to excuse Matt. Instead, Brubaker has had him make this decision with his eyes open - and it's a far more interesting development for it.

Ultimately, I agree with Darediva: I don't think it's out of character for Matt to have this kind of lapse of judgement. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with it in future issues.


And on another note, everyone is spending so much time on the Matt cheating thing, and how unfair Brubaker has been to the character. I have to say that I thought that he knocked it out of the part with the Lady Bullseye origin. He managed to do something that I didn't think was possible by bringing in a female version of one of my favorite bad guys.
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harryhausen
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:
He's now reduced to being no better than a lecherous swine like DC's Green Arrow or Arsenal. A man devoid of character, integrity and given to following his lustful impulses. That's not a hero.


Whoa! Easy on my man Ollie!!!! He's a RAPE VICTIM, if you please! And he's very much a hero. I might give you Roy, but lay off GA! Wink

And welcome to the board, too.........
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darediva wrote:

Bendis probably wrote a lot more out of character stuff about Matt Murdock than anyone else in recent memory. (Overturned limo, anyone?)



I don't get why the limo flip ever bothered some people.

In real world strongman competitions, participents have to repeatedly flip over cars. Sure, the cars involved aren't as big as limos, and, IIRC, they're stripped of the engines, but Matt's strength has repeatedly been outlandish by real world standards--I think the gap between both feats is more than acceptable given his history*, without being too over the top.

I know I'm branching off into a tangent now, but this reminds me of when I clicked on a thread about issue #110, and read some people complain about the helicoptor jump being too unrealistic. After having been raised on dozens of outlandish Asian movies where martial arts grant their practitioners all kinds of crazy abilities, and knowing Miller explicitly introduced these tropes to the DD mythology all the way back in his first run, it just seems like a weird criticism to make. I actually prefer it when the action scenes in DD are over the top in the Miller style, with the impossible acrobatics, bullet deflecting, etc., and hate it when certain writers make the action too mundane in a misguided attempt at realism. YOU HEAR ME, BRUBAKER? WHERE'S MY AWESOME NINJA BULLET DEFLECTING? YOU BETTER DELIVER ON THE CRAZY MARTIAL ARTS QUOTA WITH THE LADY BULLSEYE STORYLINE!

Anyway, rant over. Sorry about that. Smile

*When all's said and done, the limo stunt was really no more ludicrous than, say, Matt effortlessly *curling* 400 pounds, treating it like a lightweight striking bo, and hurling it across a gym during Miller's run.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murdock Bell wrote:
I know I'm branching off into a tangent now, but this reminds me of when I clicked on a thread about issue #110, and read some people complain about the helicoptor jump being too unrealistic.

I don't think anyone said that it was unrealistic per se. I personally thought it was just oddly drawn. As in, the angles didn't really match from one panel to the next which actually sort of ruins the fluidity of movement that it seems you're looking for since you mentioned Miller.

Other than that, I will freely admit to being pro-realism (though I'm not using the word realism as strictly as one might when talking about real events, obviously). I'm all for deflecting bullets, but I generally don't like when the specific powers of a superhero, whichever one we're talking about, are used in completely outlandish ways. Reading a computer screen by touch comes to mind... Wink

Back to this thread, I'd just like to comment on what an interesting discussion it's been so far. It's been really fun reading and commenting. Who knew a comic book could provoke this kind of debate? I guess that means Brubaker was successful in stirring the pot, whichever camp you happen to be in.
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Murdock Bell
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
Murdock Bell wrote:
I know I'm branching off into a tangent now, but this reminds me of when I clicked on a thread about issue #110, and read some people complain about the helicoptor jump being too unrealistic.

I don't think anyone said that it was unrealistic per se. I personally thought it was just oddly drawn. As in, the angles didn't really match from one panel to the next which actually sort of ruins the fluidity of movement that it seems you're looking for since you mentioned Miller.


I'm sorry--I should've specified that I wasn't necessarily talking about a thread on this board.

I actually agree about your point regarding the choice of angles, and think that while Lark is a great artist--and I've adored his work on the title--he hasn't yet matched Miller's DD art when it comes to the fluidity and elaborate nature of his action scenes, or portraying the ludicrously exaggerated acrobatic nature of Matt's body language and fighting style.

I can't think of any post-Miller artists that have, really, even though some of them were more technically refined in other areas.



jumonji wrote:

Other than that, I will freely admit to being pro-realism (though I'm not using the word realism as strictly as one might when talking about real events, obviously). I'm all for deflecting bullets, but I generally don't like when the specific powers of a superhero, whichever one we're talking about, are used in completely outlandish ways. Reading a computer screen by touch comes to mind... Wink



I can see that. For example, I don't think Matt should be tossing cars like frisbees, or leaping over buildings in a single bound.

OTOH, I prefer it when his action scenes are based on the same tradition movies like Kill Bill and the first Matrix come from, and not when they're more grounded like, say, a Bruce Lee movie.

Scenes involving the senses/radar I judge more on a case by case basis, but I tend to be more lenient than others, since I love and wholeheartedly accept the mystic ninja element Miller added to them.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murdock Bell wrote:
Scenes involving the senses/radar I judge more on a case by case basis, but I tend to be more lenient than others, since I love and wholeheartedly accept the mystic ninja element Miller added to them.

Actually, Miller is one of my favorite writers as far as the senses goes, and I rarely found them to be exaggerated. The only instance that comes to mind - and it is undeniably a very cool scene - is when DD isolates a single cough in Manhattan from a rooftop in Devils (#169). That definitely crosses the line from superhearing into the realms of ESP, but aside from that, I thought the senses were relatively down to Earth compared with how they've been portrayed by many other writers (let's just say that DD flipping over a limo bothers me much less than having him smell the saline solution in reporters' eyes through a wall - Bendis both times).

I don't necessarily mind that Miller made them more mystical in origin since he still respected what the various senses - heightened or not - would allow someone to do. That's all I care about as far as realism goes. I also liked how he played around with them, having them go from over the top to Matt losing his radar. It was interesting stuff that other previous writers hadn't really looked at before. So, 99% of what he did under Miller, I'm totally cool with, and I'm known for being picky. Yes, I admit it. Cool

Have we now officially derailed this thread? Wink
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It doesn’t make sense for someone, who at least under Bendis, was extremely disciplined and controlled and who took his marriage vows seriously, to suddenly decide that he wants to be unfaithful.


My point exactly. True, human beings are fallacious, we all know that, but there's a limit to what you can condone to the protagonist with the justification that "it's human". For some readers, like me and Lucrezia, this case was one step too far.

On a side note, I think you (jumonji, Alice, Dave) got a little too fixated on that example of Matt cheating on his wife while drunk. That was, I think, a way of saying that the fact that Matt did that with no other "extenuating circumstances" makes it all a little harder to swallow.

Oh, while I'm at it. About extenuating circumstances. Everyone is mentioning Matt's affair with Mary while seemingly forgetting the tiny detail that one of Mary's powers is a minor form of mind control.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
True, human beings are fallacious, we all know that, but there's a limit to what you can condone to the protagonist with the justification that "it's human". For some readers, like me and Lucrezia, this case was one step too far.

What I think is interesting is what it is that "makes" a fictional character and what determines whether someone is acting out of character. With real people, when someone does something we don't expect of them, they obviously don't act out of character since it was obviously in their character to do whatever it was they did. We might say that "he wasn't acting like himself," but unless said person is mentally ill, even the out of character behavior is obviously a part of that person's repertoire, though we may not see that particular trait very often.

With fictional characters, you have less freedom, since the very essence of a character's being, as we see it, depends entirely on what that character has done and said up until that point. From there, we as readers construct some kind of pattern that we apply to our expectations of how that character will act. For any writer of serial fiction (with a 45 year long publication history no less), the key to keeping the character alive and interesting must be to, on the one hand, make sure that the character is recognizable, that is consistent with what has gone before, while introducing new situations for the character to react to. Writers have always taken chances with Matt Murdock (thanks to that B-list status), which I think is part of why he's such a great character. I think the fact that most seem to be either intrigued or appalled by this development shows that we either see this as an expansion of the character, a chance to explore something new, or as a violation of the character. Either way, I do think writers have to take chances to keep characters interesting, and that is what Bru has done here. From most people's positive reactions to this issue (even though one may not condone Matt's actions on moral grounds), this gamble has probably paid off.

Sorry for the sloppy armchair philosophy there, I just took a hot bath and it may have messed with my head.

Francesco wrote:
On a side note, I think you (jumonji, Alice, Dave) got a little too fixated on that example of Matt cheating on his wife while drunk. That was, I think, a way of saying that the fact that Matt did that with no other "extenuating circumstances" makes it all a little harder to swallow.

No one got fixated on anything, I think the sobriety factor was just one out of many aspects we were looking at.

Francesco wrote:
Oh, while I'm at it. About extenuating circumstances. Everyone is mentioning Matt's affair with Mary while seemingly forgetting the tiny detail that one of Mary's powers is a minor form of mind control.

True, but it still rubbed me the wrong way.
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