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Daredevil #111 discussion
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Ian
Flying Blind


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my gosh, I can't believe all of this sanctimonious whining. If you want a writer/character that Jesus would approve of, I'm sure the wonks at Zondervan publish a comic right up your alley. I'm sorry Bru has you hiding your comics from your Mom, but seriously everybody, let's get a grip.
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Oh my gosh, I can't believe all of this sanctimonious whining. If you want a writer/character that Jesus would approve of, I'm sure the wonks at Zondervan publish a comic right up your alley. I'm sorry Bru has you hiding your comics from your Mom, but seriously everybody, let's get a grip.

And the thread was going so well, too...
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:

And the thread was going so well, too...



It couldn't have lasted. But four full pages going well over a controversial topic is a remarkable accomplishment.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1994
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man.

I trade wait so I was avoiding this thread even when it hit five pages. But then "the moment" was spoiled by in the latest episode of "Fresh Ink" which was titled "Daredevil's STD is Danger" so I thought I'd see what everyone was saying. Anyway, my take without having read the issue:

1. I don't like it simply because it feeds the ridiculous "Daredevil is a horndog" crap. At the time Smith was running around telling everyone DD was a horndog Matt had not been in any more relationships than other heroes who had been in print since the 60s. However, somehow the idea caught on and now writers are writing Matt like he is a horndog and we get a selfulfilling prophecy. Lame.

2. The Typhoid thing is different because I think an aspect of that was Nocenti wanting us to dislike Matt for it. It was a bad thing for him to do. That was the point. I haven't read the issue but I predict the "opps, I shouldn't have done that!" bit may fall flat (as it always does).

3. There's been some discussion of what difference drinking makes. The correct answer: all the difference in the world. That said, Matt doesn't usually drink. In Born Again he actually says "I don't drink".
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then I think you'll love this:

James Hunt, reviewer at cbr wrote:
It’s not uncommon for people to claim that Matt Murdock is the Marvel Universe’s foremost “player” with the ladies. Clearly it’s a concept Brubaker is comfortable with, as this issue sees Matt add another notch to billy club in the form of Dakota North.


Oh, and also this "pearl" here:

Hunt wrote:

With Matt’s wife Milla still a presence in the book (if not actually appearing) it plays directly into the Catholic guilt that is such a large part of Matt’s portrayal.


I was about to throw up when I read that.
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Then I think you'll love this:

James Hunt, reviewer at cbr wrote:
It’s not uncommon for people to claim that Matt Murdock is the Marvel Universe’s foremost “player” with the ladies. Clearly it’s a concept Brubaker is comfortable with, as this issue sees Matt add another notch to billy club in the form of Dakota North.

I don't think that the reviewer is necessarily condoning that take on Matt, though - he's just saying that this latest development seems to fit with that characterisation, whether rightly or wrongly.

Francesco wrote:
Oh, and also this "pearl" here:

Hunt wrote:

With Matt’s wife Milla still a presence in the book (if not actually appearing) it plays directly into the Catholic guilt that is such a large part of Matt’s portrayal.


I was about to throw up when I read that.

Is it the reference to "Catholic Guilt" that bothers you? Obviously, Matt's religion plays a large part in his life, and I think that you can certainly argue that his struggle to reconcile his life with his Catholic principles has led to some guilty feelings on his part.
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jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
I don't like it simply because it feeds the ridiculous "Daredevil is a horndog" crap. At the time Smith was running around telling everyone DD was a horndog Matt had not been in any more relationships than other heroes who had been in print since the 60s. However, somehow the idea caught on and now writers are writing Matt like he is a horndog and we get a selfulfilling prophecy. Lame.

I don't think Brubaker should be limited in his storytelling by people's baseless and preconceived notions about Matt's sex life (especially since these notions aren't even based on the actual comic, but rather other people's uninformed opinions). He can only work with the character as it is, and I think he's doing a good job of it. The "Matt is a horndog thing" is absurd. He's in his mid-thirties and has had sex with less than ten women. Yeah, he's such a player... Darn you Kevin Smith! Rolling Eyes

james castle wrote:
I haven't read the issue but I predict the "opps, I shouldn't have done that!" bit may fall flat (as it always does).

I think you may feel differently about this after having read the issue. I thought it was handled appropriately.
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I don't think that the reviewer is necessarily condoning that take on Matt, though - he's just saying that this latest development seems to fit with that characterisation, whether rightly or wrongly.


The reviewer is not condoning it with that (not directly in fact), but that particular way he's using to say it ("adding a notch to the billy-club") implies a very superficial knowledge of the book and, in general, of the character.

Quote:
Is it the reference to "Catholic Guilt" that bothers you? Obviously, Matt's religion plays a large part in his life


I disagree. That's a commonplace that oversimplifies the character (and that stinks of Kevin Smith).
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying that Matt's a devout Catholic - his relationship with his religion is complicated and complex, as you say - but I still think that religion informs his life to quite a large degree.

Obviously, certain writers have chosen to explore that more than others - but I always took Matt's commitment to the sanctity of marriage as a result of his relgious upbringing, at least in part.
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jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
Obviously, Matt's religion plays a large part in his life, and I think that you can certainly argue that his struggle to reconcile his life with his Catholic principles has led to some guilty feelings on his part.

We had this discussion in that surprisingly good religion thread a while back, but I actually take issue with Matt's religion being a large part of his life. Why? Outside of Guardian Devil, we've never seen him be a practising Catholic, and to me, the "devout Catholic" label is as erroneous as the "Matt is a player" label (and isn't it funny that those two notions are supposedly both true even though they seem contradictory?).

I don't take issue with some aspects of the idea of Catholic guilt, since I think it's fairly obvious that all people are influenced by their cultural backgrounds. In my country, we have a saying that people have "Luther sitting on their shoulder" and it's well known that Swedish culture is influenced by many of the ideas of a rather strict form of Lutheranism. At the same time, we're one of the most secular peoples in the world.

By the same token, you could certainly say that Matt is shaped by his background, and that Irish Catholicism influences his thinking about the world and his place in it. I also wholeheartedly accept that he believes in a higher power, and has some amount of attachment to the church he was raised in. However, I just don't see where the idea of him being particularly religious comes from. I don't even see it in Born Again. When Kevin Smith had him threaten Karen Page with the fires of hell if she didn't come to church with him - albeit jokingly - I thought that was one of the most out of character things I'd ever read in this book. It was a huge turn-off. Matt may be a lot of things, but religious bigot isn't one of them.

So, Catholic guilt? Sure, there is certainly that, but I don't see how being identified as belonging to a certain religion necessarily makes the character religious, especially since he's only very rarely been portrayed as such.
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