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Daredevil #111 discussion
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points.
In any case, I'd like to stress that this one post of mine was, in fact, a criticism towards the reviewer, quite separated from my views on the current issue.
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Gloria
Redemption


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It just came to me today at work.

Some issues ago, we were joking putting words to a non-text preview during the Mr. Fear arc.

In my rendition, Foggy and Matt were talking about playing strip poker with Dakota (Jumonji later made a RIOTOUS take on the idea Laughing )

I don't know if that was pre-cognition, but right now I'm knocking my head on the wall for NOT HAVING BOUGHT A LOTTERY TICKET THAT DAY!!

Damn an' blast! Wink
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DD1987
Flying Blind


Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long time Daredevil fan, first time posting here though. I like the issue and the new villain but honestly, I like Bendis' characterization of Matt more. Bru's Matt is depressing to read while Bendis and even Miller's Matt was an inspiring character.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:
Obviously, Matt's religion plays a large part in his life, and I think that you can certainly argue that his struggle to reconcile his life with his Catholic principles has led to some guilty feelings on his part.

We had this discussion in that surprisingly good religion thread a while back, but I actually take issue with Matt's religion being a large part of his life. Why? Outside of Guardian Devil, we've never seen him be a practising Catholic, and to me, the "devout Catholic" label is as erroneous as the "Matt is a player" label (and isn't it funny that those two notions are supposedly both true even though they seem contradictory?).


I agree 100%. Matt's religion plays a large part in his life. Only he doesn't go to church. And he never mentions god or religion. And he doesn't think about them either. And religious concerns never come up and have zero effect on his actions. Wait, what does "large part" mean again?
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't Matt brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition by his father (with his mother leaving his father in order to pursue a life as a nun)? Even if he doesn't go to church every Sunday, that kind of background can still inform a person's personality to a large extent.

Perhaps he doesn't pray regularly or talk about God or his religion (although some writers appear to have played this up more than others), but I think it would be overly simplistic to say that religion isn't an important part of his character just because he's not a practising Catholic.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
Wasn't Matt brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition by his father (with his mother leaving his father in order to pursue a life as a nun)? Even if he doesn't go to church every Sunday, that kind of background can still inform a person's personality to a large extent.

Perhaps he doesn't pray regularly or talk about God or his religion (although some writers appear to have played this up more than others), but I think it would be overly simplistic to say that religion isn't an important part of his character just because he's not a practising Catholic.


I assume by "some writers" you mean Kevin Smith because I honestly can't think of another one who played it up at all. And it's not the practicing (going to church (which he doesn't), ect.) bit that I think is important. The important bit is that he's never shown considering it or thinking about it or mentioning it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't think of a single instance of catholic religious beliefs or considerations actually effecting his thoughts or actions. There's never been a time where he has to make a decision or something and he thinks "WWJD?" or anything like that.

I can't imagine how it's "overly simplistic" to suggest that the complete lack of religious motivation in his life strongly suggests that he doesn't have any religious motivations.
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jumonji
Guardian Devil


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
I assume by "some writers" you mean Kevin Smith because I honestly can't think of another one who played it up at all.

One thing I find interesting is that Tony Isabella has been known to take credit for "outing" Matt as a Catholic in the old bronze age issue called Tearing Down Fogwell's Gym. What's funny about it is that the only thing of any religious significance in it is that it has Matt talking to a priest from his old neighborhood. That's it. Considering that he's from an Irish neighborhood, has red hair, and his last name is Murdock, I don't think revealing something about his background that people would have figured out anyway is that shocking.

I think people tend to confuse being from an Irish Catholic background with being a practicing Catholic. The first and only suggestion that Matt was a regular church-goer came during Kevin Smith's arc (with the exception of him going to confession in Elektra Lives Again, which isn't in continuity).

I think that Dave has a very valid point in saying that religion can still inform a person's worldview, and I agree, but I think this may have much more to do with culture and heritage than a strict adherence to scripture. I would never suggest that Matt doesn't believe in God (we know he does), or that he doesn't self-identify as Catholic. But where I agree with JC is that specific religious beliefs have never been shown to be a big part of his life. I mean, has he ever even mentioned Jesus anywhere?

Aside from being a costumed vigilante, he's a secular New York yuppie. I can't even remember Jack Murdock being portrayed as being particularly religious. If people find meaning in imagining Matt as being much more religous than he has ever been written, that's 100% fine with me, but I just don't see it personally
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
james castle wrote:
I assume by "some writers" you mean Kevin Smith because I honestly can't think of another one who played it up at all.

One thing I find interesting is that Tony Isabella has been known to take credit for "outing" Matt as a Catholic in the old bronze age issue called Tearing Down Fogwell's Gym. What's funny about it is that the only thing of any religious significance in it is that it has Matt talking to a priest from his old neighborhood. That's it. Considering that he's from an Irish neighborhood, has red hair, and his last name is Murdock, I don't think revealing something about his background that people would have figured out anyway is that shocking.

I think people tend to confuse being from an Irish Catholic background with being a practicing Catholic. The first and only suggestion that Matt was a regular church-goer came during Kevin Smith's arc (with the exception of him going to confession in Elektra Lives Again, which isn't in continuity).

I think that Dave has a very valid point in saying that religion can still inform a person's worldview, and I agree, but I think this may have much more to do with culture and heritage than a strict adherence to scripture. I would never suggest that Matt doesn't believe in God (we know he does), or that he doesn't self-identify as Catholic. But where I agree with JC is that specific religious beliefs have never been shown to be a big part of his life. I mean, has he ever even mentioned Jesus anywhere?

Aside from being a costumed vigilante, he's a secular New York yuppie. I can't even remember Jack Murdock being portrayed as being particularly religious. If people find meaning in imagining Matt as being much more religous than he has ever been written, that's 100% fine with me, but I just don't see it personally


Well said, Christine.

For various reasons, Stan Lee kept overt religious overtones out of his comics. For instance, when Ben Grimm was recently "outed" as being Jewish, Lee (who is Jewish, as was Jack Kirby) vehemently denied that he ever intended for any of his characters to be Jewish or any other faith. So I would imagine that Matt's conversation with a Priest from his old neighbourhood during Isabella's short run - taking place at a time in which Lee still wielded control - can probably be considered to be a pretty big deal in its day.

As an aside, many have argued that Lee and Kirby, as well as other notable Jewish artists, writers and editors of the Golden and Silver Age periods, created comics from a Jewish perspective, outlook and nature, but not from a religious perspective, similar to what movie tycoons like Jack Warner and Samuel Goldwyn had done in Hollywood, but that's another story... For those interested in pursuing this point, I would suggest that you pick up an excellent documentary called "Hollywoodism: Jews, Movies and the American Dream." The documentary devotes a bit of time, and a great degree of respect, to the role of Jewish people in the comic book industry.

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Dave Wallace
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacktyphoid wrote:
For various reasons, Stan Lee kept overt religious overtones out of his comics. For instance, when Ben Grimm was recently "outed" as being Jewish, Lee (who is Jewish, as was Jack Kirby) vehemently denied that he ever intended for any of his characters to be Jewish or any other faith. So I would imagine that Matt's conversation with a Priest from his old neighbourhood during Isabella's short run - taking place at a time in which Lee still wielded control - can probably be considered to be a pretty big deal in its day.

Absolutely, I was thinking about exactly the same thing whilst reading this thread earlier.
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MarcWagz
Flying Blind


Joined: 16 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what I kind of want to bring to light is the fact that Matt, although you all seem to have lost faith in him because of his apparent morale failure, is really the loser in this situation. He is not the winner because he got the girl, he is the loser because he got the girl. Now he is beating up himself even more than he was before. Now he has a woman who wants him, who he can't have, because he has a woman he loves he cant have.

I think brubaker likes playing with matt like a voodoo doll and I rather don't like it (I liked without fear unlike alot of people, although only because of Fear's character). We will have to see how it plays out, and hopefully Matt finally ends up on top, because it is getting ridiculous.
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