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Daredevil #111 discussion
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MarcWagz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:
Wasn't Matt brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition by his father (with his mother leaving his father in order to pursue a life as a nun)? Even if he doesn't go to church every Sunday, that kind of background can still inform a person's personality to a large extent.

Perhaps he doesn't pray regularly or talk about God or his religion (although some writers appear to have played this up more than others), but I think it would be overly simplistic to say that religion isn't an important part of his character just because he's not a practising Catholic.


I assume by "some writers" you mean Kevin Smith because I honestly can't think of another one who played it up at all. And it's not the practicing (going to church (which he doesn't), ect.) bit that I think is important. The important bit is that he's never shown considering it or thinking about it or mentioning it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't think of a single instance of catholic religious beliefs or considerations actually effecting his thoughts or actions. There's never been a time where he has to make a decision or something and he thinks "WWJD?" or anything like that.

I can't imagine how it's "overly simplistic" to suggest that the complete lack of religious motivation in his life strongly suggests that he doesn't have any religious motivations.


correct me if Im wrong but isnt ther ereligous references in Born Again?
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcWagz wrote:
correct me if Im wrong but isnt ther ereligous references in Born Again?

Not to intervene on JC's behalf here (though I suspect this may be the one topic on which we actually agree...), but we're not talking about religious references in general. Certainly, Born Again is full of religious references and symbolism. This is done quite effectively, as I see it, and the character is sort of reborn in some kind of Christ-like fashion. It's still not really about Matt consciously finding or rediscovering his faith or anything though. I'm still not buying how really anything in the comics would suggest that Matt Murdock is in any way more religious than the average American, or even the average New Yorker.
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Lucrezia
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Dave Wallace"]
Darediva wrote:

But to be honest, I don't know why some people would prefer Matt to have been drunk on this occasion: to me, that would feel cheap, and would feel like Brubaker was trying to excuse Matt. Instead, Brubaker has had him make this decision with his eyes open - and it's a far more interesting development for it.



How do you mean? To show that Matt is a liar and a hyporcrite and doesn't believe in the sanctity of marriage after all?

jumonji wrote:
Dave Wallace wrote:
But to be honest, I don't know why some people would prefer Matt to have been drunk on this occasion: to me, that would feel cheap, and would feel like Brubaker was trying to excuse Matt. Instead, Brubaker has had him make this decision with his eyes open - and it's a far more interesting development for it.

Another thing... If Matt and Dakota had actually gone to dinner together and downed a couple of bottles of wine, wouldn't that have seemed more planned out or something? I'm not saying that friends can't have dinner with friends of the opposite sex - I do all the time - but if we're talking about an actual date here, that shows some amount of romantic intent. The way it played out, they were spending the day together, but it was innocent enough until they were both overcome by emotion (some of it good ol' horniness). So yes, Matt does go into it knowingly, but it also seems very spur of the moment.


I don't think that it would have been 'cheap'. It would have made sense, especially since we were already shown issues of him with an opportunity to cheat on his wife before and he said an emphatic no then. Not only because he thought that adultery was wrong. But because he believes in the sanctity of marriage. Issue #111 shows that everything he said about marriage and his love for Milla was a lie. I really hope that Brubaker gives us a story showing what has made him chnage his mind.

jumonji wrote:



Thirdly, Matt has cheated in the past. He had an affair with Typhoid Mary (in her less "typhoid" form) while he was living with Karen Page. Sure, he was under the influence of her voodoo, but the whole thing seemed pretty cold to me. The difference there was that he was sleeping with one person and then going home to another. I wasn't a particularly big fan of that develpment, which I considered to be a worse situation than the one he is in now. The fact that he is married to Milla, and wasn't married to Karen doesn't matter at all to me personally. What Matt has done is not right, and it's not what a lot of us would like to see him do, but it is not out of character as I see it. Nor does it mean that he doesn't take what he did very seriously. I'm looking forward to seeing how he handles this in the next few issues.


I've heard this excuse before, that Matt cheated on Karen with Typhoid Mary in issue #297. So I went out and purchased issues 294-301. Matt was not with Karen at that time. He was actually single.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:
I've heard this excuse before, that Matt cheated on Karen with Typhoid Mary in issue #297. So I went out and purchased issues 294-301. Matt was not with Karen at that time. He was actually single.

You bought the wrong issue. The one where he actually cheats on Karen (his very live-in girlfriend) is when Typhoid Mary first appears, during Nocenti's run. I'd be happy to get you the exact issue number. The issues you're referring to are from Chichester's run, long after Karen dumped him - for cheating.
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Lucrezia
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jumonji wrote:
Lucrezia wrote:
I've heard this excuse before, that Matt cheated on Karen with Typhoid Mary in issue #297. So I went out and purchased issues 294-301. Matt was not with Karen at that time. He was actually single.

You bought the wrong issue. The one where he actually cheats on Karen (his very live-in girlfriend) is when Typhoid Mary first appears, during Nocenti's run. I'd be happy to get you the exact issue number. The issues you're referring to are from Chichester's run, long after Karen dumped him - for cheating.


Please do, I'm anxious to read this.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:
jumonji wrote:
Lucrezia wrote:
I've heard this excuse before, that Matt cheated on Karen with Typhoid Mary in issue #297. So I went out and purchased issues 294-301. Matt was not with Karen at that time. He was actually single.

You bought the wrong issue. The one where he actually cheats on Karen (his very live-in girlfriend) is when Typhoid Mary first appears, during Nocenti's run. I'd be happy to get you the exact issue number. The issues you're referring to are from Chichester's run, long after Karen dumped him - for cheating.


Please do, I'm anxious to read this.

Typhoid Mary was introduced in issue #254. He got involved with her in issue #255. The whole Typhoid Mary arc has been collected so you should be able to find it. Of course, Mary does have powers that allow for a mild form of mind control, but I thought his treatment of Karen was still rather cold. Then again, I wasn't exactly thrilled with Nocenti's take on the character generally, but I know I'm in the minority.
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Lucrezia
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bad...I forgot I actually do have the whole collection in trade (I have forgotten I had it0. I don't see any reference to him sleeping with her, and yes it does look as if she's messing with/controlling his mind --when they kiss(which seems to be her powers).

However this scenario is way different than what took place in #111. In that story Matt being stone cold sober and in charge of all his faculties and deciding that it's okay to screw around on his wife.

I really look forward to future issues from Bruebaker where or why Matt's philosphy to the sanctity of marriage has changed.
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jumonji
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucrezia wrote:
My bad...I forgot I actually do have the whole collection in trade (I have forgotten I had it0. I don't see any reference to him sleeping with her, and yes it does look as if she's messing with/controlling his mind --when they kiss(which seems to be her powers).

Their having an actual full-blown affair is implied even though you don't see them in bed together, which I think would have been harder to get past editorial twenty years ago. But yes, certainly, mind control is involved.

Lucrezia wrote:
I really look forward to future issues from Bruebaker where or why Matt's philosphy to the sanctity of marriage has changed.

The thing is, I don't think they have changed. People, sadly, sometimes do things that go against their basic convictions. Usually that causes quite a bit of guilt, as it has in Matt's case. If he thought what he had done was okay, he would have shrugged it off and thought nothing of it. I don't think that's the case. I don't think his philosophy has changed, I think he has simply failed to live according to his own philosophy. But, hey, that's just me.

I agree that I would love to see where Brubaker takes this, and I'm interested to see what insight into the character this gives us in the coming issues. I'm foreseeing a major guilt trip...
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