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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: Retcons in Daredevil |
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What do you think of retcons in the DD title over the years? What are the good retcons and what are the bad retcons? Also are there any retcons you would like see?
Frank Miller brought on a lot of retcons to DD during his run, Stick training DD was a retcon, Matt Murdock was originally self taught as a fighter, likewise Miller had Matt get his law degree from Columbia University, when originally he went to "State University". Even the introdiction of Elektra is pretty well a retcon, she was Matt's first love from college, who was never mentioned till Miller introduced her.
I think in terms of retcons I would see, I think you change some things about some of the more minor villains' back stories to make them more interesting. For example, Jester back in the 60s, was a failed actor who refused to take acting lessons and got laughed off stage and then became a super villain because he was unhappy that no one liked his "performances" It seems like if he just took acting classes in the first place, he could have avoided a lot of problems. That back story doesn't make him threatening or sympathetic or anything.
I think I would retcon his back story, so Jester was a good actor, who got screwed over by another actor who ruined his acting career and that actor is now really famous, so Jester wants to get revenge on this actor and DD has to protect him despite the fact the actor is unpleasant person. Jester having a legitimate reason for revenge against someone, is a nice change of pace from all the spiteful DD villains who want revenge on DD for very petty reasons. |
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Crimson Cowl
Flying Blind
Joined: 27 Sep 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Retcons in Daredevil |
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| The Overlord wrote: | For example, Jester back in the 60s, was a failed actor who refused to take acting lessons and got laughed off stage and then became a super villain because he was unhappy that no one liked his "performances" It seems like if he just took acting classes in the first place, he could have avoided a lot of problems. That back story doesn't make him threatening or sympathetic or anything.
I think I would retcon his back story, so Jester was a good actor, who got screwed over by another actor who ruined his acting career and that actor is now really famous, so Jester wants to get revenge on this actor and DD has to protect him despite the fact the actor is unpleasant person. Jester having a legitimate reason for revenge against someone, is a nice change of pace from all the spiteful DD villains who want revenge on DD for very petty reasons. |
I tend to agree that the Jester's backstory could do with a little 'finesseing' to bring it up to date for modern comics. I'd probably go with something more internal and psychological than just a revenger's plot. I'd go with something like the Jester having talent but just being too obsessive, temperamental, mercurial, and unstable such that he's completely impossible to work with. He might be so fixated and perfectionist about what he does that he's never satisfied with what he's doing and needs to know and do everything himself, yet in spite of all the additional skills and knowledge he's acquired he still sees flaws in everything he does (even though others might not) and as a result ends up throwing tantrums and never completing anything he starts. It's that fustration which drives him over the edge.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Retcons in Daredevil |
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| Crimson Cowl wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | For example, Jester back in the 60s, was a failed actor who refused to take acting lessons and got laughed off stage and then became a super villain because he was unhappy that no one liked his "performances" It seems like if he just took acting classes in the first place, he could have avoided a lot of problems. That back story doesn't make him threatening or sympathetic or anything.
I think I would retcon his back story, so Jester was a good actor, who got screwed over by another actor who ruined his acting career and that actor is now really famous, so Jester wants to get revenge on this actor and DD has to protect him despite the fact the actor is unpleasant person. Jester having a legitimate reason for revenge against someone, is a nice change of pace from all the spiteful DD villains who want revenge on DD for very petty reasons. |
I tend to agree that the Jester's backstory could do with a little 'finesseing' to bring it up to date for modern comics. I'd probably go with something more internal and psychological than just a revenger's plot. I'd go with something like the Jester having talent but just being too obsessive, temperamental, mercurial, and unstable such that he's completely impossible to work with. He might be so fixated and perfectionist about what he does that he's never satisfied with what he's doing and needs to know and do everything himself, yet in spite of all the additional skills and knowledge he's acquired he still sees flaws in everything he does (even though others might not) and as a result ends up throwing tantrums and never completing anything he starts. It's that fustration which drives him over the edge. |
That could work too, but I do think that Jester having a grudge against a really unpleasant and arrogant actor could be an interesting story having DD protecting this guy. Yes there a lot of revenge plots in DD, but how many villains have a legitimate reason for revenge rather then a extremely petty one and how often is it directed against a third party rather then Matt Murdock himself?
Also having his career ruined by another makes him somewhat sympathetic and that would make him different from say the Joker. Jester's biggest problem is that he was created as a Joker rip off, so you have move him away from that as possible.
In your version, when does Jester become a criminal? Does he just have a mental breakdown after getting fired from some production due to his perfectionist tenancies and then become a criminal? Why would become a criminal rather then just an alcoholic if he was just a perfectionist who felt snubbed. Also would Jester just rob banks or try to rob the production companies that fired him? I think there should be a method to the madness, rather then Jester just having a mental break down and committing crimes at random. I think your idea is good beginning but it needs a bit more to fully explain why he decided to become a criminal. Joker often commits crimes to get attention and often considers himself an artist who commits crimes as works of art. He also retired from crime in the 80s, so it be nice to get an explanation why he became a criminal again, revenge is one explanation, but I am open for another one.
The biggest thing to do with Jester is to find ways to keep the same basic theme, but making his characterization different from the Joker, so he can't be some psycho who commits crimes for fun and attention. |
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Crimson Cowl
Flying Blind
Joined: 27 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:09 am Post subject: |
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The Overlord:
| Quote: | | In your version, when does Jester become a criminal? Does he just have a mental breakdown after getting fired from some production due to his perfectionist tenancies and then become a criminal? Why would become a criminal rather then just an alcoholic if he was just a perfectionist who felt snubbed. |
The point is that you wouldn't have to change that part. Clearly mentally unstable and unable to make it as an actor, and suffering humiliation in a downward spiral, he turns his considerable talents to crime, assassination and intrigue instead to make a living on the one hand, and also as an expression of his deep, vengeful misanthropy.
Essentially consistent with how he was always portrayed save for the goofy 'oops, I did everything else but forgot to take acting lessons' malarkey.
| Quote: | | The biggest thing to do with Jester is to find ways to keep the same basic theme, but making his characterization different from the Joker, so he can't be some psycho who commits crimes for fun and attention. |
As far as emphasizing the difference between him and the Joker goes I think that the way to go might be to use him as a kind of criminal PR guy. Essentially he uses his experience as a performer, his wide range of skills in magic, stuntwork, stagecraft, masking, etc. to perform acts such as murder, or discrediting witnesses, or discomfiting those his employers have vendettas against. He does this either in order to make a public spectacle and send a message in spectacular fashion or conversely to do it whilst misdirecting blame towards someone other than the people who hired him.
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Skaughtto
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Apr 2013
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Crimson Cowl wrote: | | As far as emphasizing the difference between him and the Joker goes I think that the way to go might be to use him as a kind of criminal PR guy. Essentially he uses his experience as a performer, his wide range of skills in magic, stuntwork, stagecraft, masking, etc. to perform acts such as murder, or discrediting witnesses, or discomfiting those his employers have vendettas against. He does this either in order to make a public spectacle and send a message in spectacular fashion or conversely to do it whilst misdirecting blame towards someone other than the people who hired him. |
I'd give him more entertainment industry experience. He worked his way up the acting ladder taking oddjobs(stuntman, make-up artist, writer), but fell down. Maybe he's got a bone to pick with the law office of Nelson and Murdock. Maybe he wants to discredit Daredevil and impersonates him.
I think you could make him a cunning character if he tries to play out a script or use some ideas that seem straight out of a movie. Make-up could deceive the public at times and perhaps even the acting ability would trump DD's "human lie detector" sense. It's possible he could orchastrate something interesting for an issue or two, but it's difficult to imagine him as a character that pops up more than once every few years.
More could be done with the Stilt-Man armor. Take the man out of the suit, make the suit remote controlled or programmable, make the arms and neck telescopic, have some kid in China using the suit to steal stuff or whack some people. Throw in a second suit toward the end of the story for added danger.
I've got a lot of hope for Ikari. I like Matt Murdock in the Zatoichi role, battling Hand ninjas every so often and Ikari fits that mold. He seems Venom-like, if DD were Spidey. Hopefully he'll have a good backstory and a purpose to be involved with Daredevil often. Lady Bullseye felt like a goofy creation, I was bummed out to see her aside Ikari in issue #26. |
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