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DAREDEVIL: END OF DAYS #8 SPOILERS!
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's due to arrogance.
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Sparko
Flying Blind


Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The completionist in me wants to buy this collection as a trade paperback, but another side of me wants me to run my face into a wall a few times for even coming up with that.

I'll tell you that I didn't hate this like I hated Spider-Man: Reign, I put that up for sale as soon as I finished it and almost while reading it.

And damn, I loved Bendis' other stuff on DD (minus the Ninja tpb), so this is hard to believe. Maybe I'm in denial?

I dunno. Maybe I'll reread it one day and find something I missed...
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Nightwing2001
Flying Blind


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got to agree about the Mack thing, I'm not sure where this "Mack is up there with Miller as an important part of the DD stories" came from. Hell, a nobody writer like Roger Mackenzie has a more important impact on the DD stories than David Mack ever did.

I think this has got a lot to do with the post-Marvel Knights, Vol. 2 propaganda DD that has been shoved down our throats for a long time (that we are finally starting to get away from slowly now with the new Waid run) that before guys like Smith, Mack, Quesada and Bendis came along that DD was nothing and that these guys created genius works of art on the title. I'm sorry but I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.


Last edited by Nightwing2001 on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qtmxd wrote:
Waid feels significantly different, and few people want to be reminded of Diggle or Gale. And before that, you'd need to go back to Kevin Smith's brief run, and then to eras pre-dating a lot of current fans.


There was life before Volume 2. Neither Mack or Smith are in the top 10 DD writers of all time.

More and more I feel like what is "significant" is whatever gets the most hype. If you read reviews about End of Days it's mostly people lavishing it with praise and talking about how "it's the final DD tale" created by "top talent". They talk about what the project is as opposed to how it turned out. There are a few reviews that could have been written without even reading the book.

Smiths run was not groundbreaking in the slightest. It was a poor story with Smithy (i.e. poor) dialogue. It's only the hype that blinds people into thinking it was significant.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
qtmxd wrote:
Waid feels significantly different, and few people want to be reminded of Diggle or Gale. And before that, you'd need to go back to Kevin Smith's brief run, and then to eras pre-dating a lot of current fans.


There was life before Volume 2. Neither Mack or Smith are in the top 10 DD writers of all time.

More and more I feel like what is "significant" is whatever gets the most hype. If you read reviews about End of Days it's mostly people lavishing it with praise and talking about how "it's the final DD tale" created by "top talent". They talk about what the project is as opposed to how it turned out. There are a few reviews that could have been written without even reading the book.

Smiths run was not groundbreaking in the slightest. It was a poor story with Smithy (i.e. poor) dialogue. It's only the hype that blinds people into thinking it was significant.

I had left Daredevil behind for many years before picking it up again. When I did, Smith was the writer, and I became hooked, but in retrospect, I probably was pulled in more by Quesada's art than Smith's writing. Say what you want about Quesada as an editor, but he's a fantastic artist. I don't count Smith among the top Daredevil writers. Not by a long shot.

I absolutely love Parts of a Hole. I still think it is the best story to come out of Volume 2. Period. It was the first thing I ever read by David Mack, and I've read all of Kabuki since. Quesada did his best art ever on Parts of a Hole, and a lot of that was due to copying Mack's style on Kabuki. Maya Lopez was a character with a ton of potential (which Bendis ended up squandering). Unfortunately Quesada, as editor, ended up delivering a lot of the issues late during the initial run.

Mack served as artist on Bendis' first Daredevil story, "Wake Up", which was a trifle. Mack returned as writer and artist for "Vision Quest," which shouldn't have been released as a Daredevil story at all.

As much as I think Mack is a genius, if you take into account only his Daredevil work, I don't think he quite makes it as one of the top Daredevil writers or artists of all time. He was on the book during a period when a lot of attention returned to Daredevil, but only for short periods here and there.

For those who haven't read it, check out Parts of a Hole, and check out the entire run of Kabuki.

One last thing, as much as some here can't stand his work, Mark Waid has made it on my list as one of the best Daredevil writers of all time.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:

One last thing, as much as some here can't stand his work, Mark Waid has made it on my list as one of the best Daredevil writers of all time.


Agreed. Granted we're mid-run at this point but I think Waid will go down as a significant DD writer.

Weirdly though, I bought both volumes of the Irredeemable Omnibus (basically because I'm enjoying DD so much right now) and I hated it. Maybe I've just read one too many "unique" takes on the whole superhero thing but I honestly just didn't get it at all. Which might be just a way of saying that even if people don't like Waid generally they may like his DD.
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that Smith's run was back in 1999, I think it's safe to say it's the first one that a lot of fans remember. And while there was enough to criticize, I think it's just a fact that he revived DD. This was almost right after Flying Blind, a nadir for super-hero comics and possibly the most desperate change in a floundering character ever attempted. And I think Mack is a first rate talent, except that a lot of his artwork is dragged down by laziness... too many scribbles, too much collage. His work on DD was all first rate though, even if the Echo story wasn't DD. ANd Bendis's run was a classic for me.
As for Waid, as much as I have to grit my teeth, there's no denying he's become significant. It must be a chemical thing with me... even when he does what I think he should... make DD stronger, darker... I still can't stand it. Even if he were to bring back Natasha or Milla and revive Matt's dormant love life, I'd probably hate that too. A lot of it is the art. I like realism, evolving through Kirby and Colan. Rivera's clean mechanical look and Samnee's stylized simplicity don't work for me.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qtmxd wrote:
And I think Mack is a first rate talent, except that a lot of his artwork is dragged down by laziness... too many scribbles, too much collage. His work on DD was all first rate though, even if the Echo story wasn't DD.

One of the reasons why I think Mack is a genius is the way the text meshes with the images. I hadn't seen anything like that before. It's not just text, and it's not just artwork. It's an entirely new experience. But I think his best work was Kabuki.
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At their best, Mack and Sienkiewicz both use that style of merging different looks within one image, and integrating text as well. I only looked at Kabuki, never bought it. It alternated great work with a lot of pages that were almost blank. It's what I mean by his tendency to laziness. Sienkewiecz's masterpiece was Stray Toasters... the highest level of that type of art, museum quality stuff.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qtmxd wrote:
This was almost right after Flying Blind, a nadir for super-hero comics and possibly the most desperate change in a floundering character ever attempted.


I'm pretty sure you're a bit off here. As outlined in his interview on this very site Lobdell was brought in as a stop gap while Marvel waited for Smith to deliver Guardian Devil. The relaunch was well into development by the time Flying Blind hit.

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/daredevil-interviews/Lobdell

So Smith coming on the book wasn't a response to Lobdell's poor story or anything. Quite the opposite actually, it seems that Marvel was just killing time and filling space before the relaunch. With the relaunch coming Lobdell tried an off the wall story (that fell a little flat).

Prior to Flying Blind DD wasn't "floundering". There was a bit of a dip after Kessel but DD as a comic is basically defined by it's dips. For every Nocenti there is a Playing to the Camera. For every Bendis, a Diggle.

The idea that Smith saved DD is just industry hype.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
The idea that Smith saved DD is just industry hype.

Well, it's my understanding that they were considering cancelling Daredevil before Quesada and Palmiotti were given the Marvel Knights imprint. So it wasn't selling in any impressive way. And it's inarguable that Smith's name on the book brought the series a ton of new readers. As good as I think the art was, Smith's story was full of holes. The attention was based on Smith's name alone, and not on any quality work Smith was providing.

It would be like Quentin Tarantino deciding to write a Daredevil comic. EVERYBODY would buy it. Hell, everybody would buy a Ben Reilly series if Tarantino wrote it. Whether Marvel could find a way to sustain a Ben Reilly series after Tarantino was done would be the big trick.
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Nightwing2001
Flying Blind


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's safe to say that Smith brought back some much needed attention to the Daredevil comic again with the Marvel Knights relaunch. The sales of it we're abysmal by 1997/98. I think the last issue of the series #380 had a print run of about 22,000. So I do agree with that. But then again most of Marvels comics coming out at this time we're in trouble sales wise, but that's another story.

I think the big thing I've always disagreed with though was this idea that IMO we've been beat over the head with for a long time now, that the stuff that was coming out in vol. 1 before the relaunch was all creatively terrible and the volume 2 stuff that came out afterwards was somehow a million miles ahead of it all artisticly. While there we're some new art styles and Bendis definetly wrote the comic in a different way than before, was it way better than the stuff coming out in vol. 1? Maybe... but in my mind not so much.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
james castle wrote:
The idea that Smith saved DD is just industry hype.

Well, it's my understanding that they were considering cancelling Daredevil before Quesada and Palmiotti were given the Marvel Knights imprint.


I think that's the common understanding. At the time, though, I don't remember any talk of actual cancellation. I feel like the idea that DD was on the verge of cancellation is a bit of a real life ret con. Can anyone point to something pre-Smith and Quesada that actually indicates DD was in danger of being cancelled?
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid we'll have to take Quesada's word for that. Which is fine, no reason to make that up on his part.

Back to this trainwreck of a miniseries, the problem with it is that the authors involved approached the tale disregarding one important aspect: Daredevil, as a concept, is bigger and more important than them, no matter how great a writer/artist they are.

Bendis & co. believed that the only stories that mattered were those that they wrote, the characters they created etc. They believed that they have the right to say what's the definitive, ending story, and believed that they had the right to have Matt, Ben, Bullseye behave uncharacteristically and illogically so that it all may fit the idea they had, no matter how uninteresting it was.

The many explanations to the "Mapone" (name of a town? Mother Pone?), and the fact that it all turned out to be nonsensical suggests that they came up with the idea of "hey, let's make a big mystery about a word he says before dying, like Rosebud in that movie and have it revealed at the end", without giving a damn of it having sense or give a meaning to the story.
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of us can know for sure how close DD ever came to cancellation, but the future is never guaranteed. I thought there were serious plans decades ago to combine him in a double book with Iron Man. I also thought the editors said the initial plan after Shadowland was to put him on hiatus for a couple of years, since they'd just done that with Thor. And while, yes, I'm sure you're right that Smith was already contracted when Flying Blind was published, it's also reasonable to think that the book was tanking well before that.
What I find most remarkable is that DD's book has been so consistent since its inception. Peter Parker, Tony Stark, and Steve Rogers have all been replaced at least once in their costumes by other characters, and Thor has had two replacements and a hiatus. Others like Dr. Strange, Namor, Nick Fury, and Luke Cage, have never maintained their own titles. But DD has never had a real hiatus, and has always been Matt. (I don't count re-numberings.... Black Panther took over his numbering, but Diggle and then Waid re-launced DD with new numbers almost immediately after. ) Quite a record for a "second tier" character.
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