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DAREDEVIL: END OF DAYS #8 SPOILERS!
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
The idea that Smith saved DD is just industry hype.

Well, it's my understanding that they were considering cancelling Daredevil before Quesada and Palmiotti were given the Marvel Knights imprint. So it wasn't selling in any impressive way. And it's inarguable that Smith's name on the book brought the series a ton of new readers. As good as I think the art was, Smith's story was full of holes. The attention was based on Smith's name alone, and not on any quality work Smith was providing.

It would be like Quentin Tarantino deciding to write a Daredevil comic. EVERYBODY would buy it. Hell, everybody would buy a Ben Reilly series if Tarantino wrote it. Whether Marvel could find a way to sustain a Ben Reilly series after Tarantino was done would be the big trick.
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Nightwing2001
Flying Blind


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's safe to say that Smith brought back some much needed attention to the Daredevil comic again with the Marvel Knights relaunch. The sales of it we're abysmal by 1997/98. I think the last issue of the series #380 had a print run of about 22,000. So I do agree with that. But then again most of Marvels comics coming out at this time we're in trouble sales wise, but that's another story.

I think the big thing I've always disagreed with though was this idea that IMO we've been beat over the head with for a long time now, that the stuff that was coming out in vol. 1 before the relaunch was all creatively terrible and the volume 2 stuff that came out afterwards was somehow a million miles ahead of it all artisticly. While there we're some new art styles and Bendis definetly wrote the comic in a different way than before, was it way better than the stuff coming out in vol. 1? Maybe... but in my mind not so much.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
james castle wrote:
The idea that Smith saved DD is just industry hype.

Well, it's my understanding that they were considering cancelling Daredevil before Quesada and Palmiotti were given the Marvel Knights imprint.


I think that's the common understanding. At the time, though, I don't remember any talk of actual cancellation. I feel like the idea that DD was on the verge of cancellation is a bit of a real life ret con. Can anyone point to something pre-Smith and Quesada that actually indicates DD was in danger of being cancelled?
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid we'll have to take Quesada's word for that. Which is fine, no reason to make that up on his part.

Back to this trainwreck of a miniseries, the problem with it is that the authors involved approached the tale disregarding one important aspect: Daredevil, as a concept, is bigger and more important than them, no matter how great a writer/artist they are.

Bendis & co. believed that the only stories that mattered were those that they wrote, the characters they created etc. They believed that they have the right to say what's the definitive, ending story, and believed that they had the right to have Matt, Ben, Bullseye behave uncharacteristically and illogically so that it all may fit the idea they had, no matter how uninteresting it was.

The many explanations to the "Mapone" (name of a town? Mother Pone?), and the fact that it all turned out to be nonsensical suggests that they came up with the idea of "hey, let's make a big mystery about a word he says before dying, like Rosebud in that movie and have it revealed at the end", without giving a damn of it having sense or give a meaning to the story.
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of us can know for sure how close DD ever came to cancellation, but the future is never guaranteed. I thought there were serious plans decades ago to combine him in a double book with Iron Man. I also thought the editors said the initial plan after Shadowland was to put him on hiatus for a couple of years, since they'd just done that with Thor. And while, yes, I'm sure you're right that Smith was already contracted when Flying Blind was published, it's also reasonable to think that the book was tanking well before that.
What I find most remarkable is that DD's book has been so consistent since its inception. Peter Parker, Tony Stark, and Steve Rogers have all been replaced at least once in their costumes by other characters, and Thor has had two replacements and a hiatus. Others like Dr. Strange, Namor, Nick Fury, and Luke Cage, have never maintained their own titles. But DD has never had a real hiatus, and has always been Matt. (I don't count re-numberings.... Black Panther took over his numbering, but Diggle and then Waid re-launced DD with new numbers almost immediately after. ) Quite a record for a "second tier" character.
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Sparko
Flying Blind


Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qtmxd wrote:
None of us can know for sure how close DD ever came to cancellation, but the future is never guaranteed. I thought there were serious plans decades ago to combine him in a double book with Iron Man. I also thought the editors said the initial plan after Shadowland was to put him on hiatus for a couple of years, since they'd just done that with Thor. And while, yes, I'm sure you're right that Smith was already contracted when Flying Blind was published, it's also reasonable to think that the book was tanking well before that.
What I find most remarkable is that DD's book has been so consistent since its inception. Peter Parker, Tony Stark, and Steve Rogers have all been replaced at least once in their costumes by other characters, and Thor has had two replacements and a hiatus. Others like Dr. Strange, Namor, Nick Fury, and Luke Cage, have never maintained their own titles. But DD has never had a real hiatus, and has always been Matt. (I don't count re-numberings.... Black Panther took over his numbering, but Diggle and then Waid re-launced DD with new numbers almost immediately after. ) Quite a record for a "second tier" character.


Can't remember where, maybe on this site, I also saw that DD was going to potentially be paired with Iron Man.

Do you count when Black Widow was with him and shared the title?

Very interesting point though. DD has always been DD.
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think of DD/BW as DD, since it was written as his book and she was supporting. I thought they were a great team and I had fond memories of it, but re-reading a couple of them recently, I couldn't believe how he talked to her... calling her things like "kid" or "little lady" or something comparable. Really embarrassing.
I was also thinking how at DC they also put their major characters through huge changes beyond anything ever done with DD. Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne dropped out of their own books for extended periods, Green Lantern and Flash have each had several identities, and Wonder Woman has had changes that made her essentially a different character.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qtmxd wrote:
None of us can know for sure how close DD ever came to cancellation, but the future is never guaranteed. I thought there were serious plans decades ago to combine him in a double book with Iron Man. I also thought the editors said the initial plan after Shadowland was to put him on hiatus for a couple of years, since they'd just done that with Thor. And while, yes, I'm sure you're right that Smith was already contracted when Flying Blind was published, it's also reasonable to think that the book was tanking well before that.
What I find most remarkable is that DD's book has been so consistent since its inception. Peter Parker, Tony Stark, and Steve Rogers have all been replaced at least once in their costumes by other characters, and Thor has had two replacements and a hiatus. Others like Dr. Strange, Namor, Nick Fury, and Luke Cage, have never maintained their own titles. But DD has never had a real hiatus, and has always been Matt. (I don't count re-numberings.... Black Panther took over his numbering, but Diggle and then Waid re-launced DD with new numbers almost immediately after. ) Quite a record for a "second tier" character.


Hasn't DD been replaced a couple times? Bullseye replaced him for at least a couple issues during the end of Nocenti's run. But, you are right that no one has ever really taken up the mantle which is pretty amazing. Even the Fantastic Four has switched members.
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, brief impersonations of a hero by friend or foe are common story lines in all comics. Black Panther, Spider-Man, and Foggy all did best-be-forgotten one issue impersonations of DD, as did Bullseye in that one story, and Iron FIst when Matt was in Europe during Civil War.
(although I think an artist drew him as Matt when he took the mask off). Dr. Doom switched bodies with him. The Masked Marauder and Kingpin sent out bad guys in DD suits. The Ox put an extra set of Ox clothes on him and got him arrested by police who thought DD might really be the Ox. (I have to remember that when I think Waid has silly ideas). And Matt called himself Mike, and Jack Batlin with a different costume, but it was still Matt.
I mean when the hero is really replaced and dropped or marginalized for an extended period... Thor with Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike, Cap with a couple of crazy guys and Bucky, Peter with Ben Reilly ( at least I think that's what happened) and Octavius. And all the groups have line-up changes. DC does it much more, with multiple Flashes and Green Lanterns. DD/Matt has been around for nearly 50 years now, and changes of tone aside, the consistency of his book, both in character and steady publication, have been remarkable, especially with his never being a top seller.
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Gee
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 119
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This series was terrible and someone mentioned pretty much why above, that the guys writing it only really cared about their version of DD.
It was a massive ego trip that they probably thought brought their run full circle, starting with Ben and ending with him. All the problems you have outlined were my probs with Bendis's whole run, DD was a victim, not a hero, he lost almost every fight and things happened to him rather than him making things happen, thats when he was even in his series at all.
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train
Guardian Devil


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a several year hiatus from comics in general and just recently got back into reading this summer. So I missed the entire Diggle run of DD and most of the Waid run, but i am buying back issues of volume 3 here and there. I made my weekly run to my LCS this Wednesday. The owner said that he had a TPB of End of Days. I knew the premise of the story, but intentionally don't read reviews or look at previews because I don't like spoilers. I casually flipped through the pages and noticed Janson's and Sienkiewicz's names on the cover and decided to give it a try. So here is my belated review of the mini series.

The short version: It wasn't worth the $26 I paid for the TPB. I actually felt ripped off.

The longer version: There were things i liked and things I didn't like.

What I liked: Some of Janson's art. It looked like some of the pages were really rushed, but others looked really great. The Sienkiewicz painted panels were terrific. I also liked the trip down memory lane with the different DD villains and the sort of "where are they now" storytelling. To a lesser extent, the continuation of DD as a superhero. The entire story was about the death of DD, so to see someone take up the mantle was kind of fun (but has been overused in comics).

What I didn't like: Pretty much everything else. I read JC's backstory about Mapone/Bullseye backstory. At least the editor had enough sense to cut that part of the story. When I read who Mapone was, my immediate thought was "That's it?" and how did Bullseye even know who Mapone was? It's not like Matt and Natasha sent him a Christmas card every year. It's doubtful that knowing Matt had a kid would have been enough to cause a psycho like Poindexter to off himself. Another point of JC's review was how the chronology of Matt's children in relation of Timmy just doesn't make sense. The plot was rudderless. Maybe this was due to the editorial change in Mapone, but it seemed to me like the story started out painted into a corner and there was no clear idea who or what "Mapone" was until the first several issues were on the newsstand.

I know that I'm rambling, but the series really let me down. Maybe my expectations were too high. I was hoping for a Dark Knight Returns type of story and got something akin to the script from a soap opera.
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 15 Jan 2014
Posts: 144
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="james castle"]
Sparko wrote:


Speaking of which: I read an interview where Mack points out that "Mapone" is a city in Europe somewhere. He says that that's where Matt and Natasha conceived Mapone and goes on to say "it's common for people to be named after the city that they were conceived in". Wait. What? Are they? I guess that explains all the New Yorks, Bogotas and Torontos running around. Ridiculous.


I can name you one famous one (just because in 5th grade, we did a 'unit' on biography and a title about her showed up on a recommended reading list): Florence Nightingale. Was named after Florence, Italy, where she was born. (Not sure about conception.) After she became famous for her innovations in nursing, many more girls were named after her. She had a sister Frances Parthenope, named for the city of her birth, Parthenopolis.

However, the reason that detail stood out in my mind for over 30 years is because it's about the ONLY time I'd heard of anything like it.
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Sparko
Flying Blind


Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reread the series last night. The 2nd reading proved to be better than the first for me, but I'm still bothered by why Bullseye offed himself.
I remember though when Matt was talking to Timmy through "channeling" or whatever that was in issue 8 right as Punisher comes into the gym, Matt mentions how he has to take care of Bullseye. Could that conversation have been a flashback of sorts and could it have meant that the spirit of Matt was influential in getting Bullseye to hit the mark one last time? If that's what that means, then I can somewhat be satisfied by the whole thing. Sure "Mapone" still irks me, but Bullseye killing himself was maybe what bothered me most.
Now... Let's got to issue 4 right after Ben talks to the hooker dressed as Elektra. The very next page after her last comment is a panel that opens with a news story and the headline is... "The Ghost of Daredevil". Now in story they're refering to DD 2, Timmy, but maybe Bendis/Mack wanted us to think the ghost of Matt did it.

Maybe.

This is what I get after a 2nd reading.
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Sparko
Flying Blind


Joined: 13 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... Maybe Matt just says "Mapone" as his last word, not to piss off Bullseye, but maybe just because he knows he will never "see" her again. At that moment he felt guilt to not be around longer in her life.
And now then, why does Bullseye write "Mapone" in his own blood? Maybe The Ghost of Daredevil did it or made him do it.
When I look at that news headline, those words, The Ghost of Daredevil could have been different. It could have said "Daredevil is Back", or anything else, but no, it says The Ghost of Daredevil. Thinking about it more, it seems deliberate.
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