Daredevil Message Board

[Mike Murdock]

I said before that Kevin Smith feels a personal connection to Matthew Murdock. But I'm starting to wonder if I got it backwards. Maybe the person he actually feels empathy with is Quentin Beck. Great theatrical artist overshadowed by other auters? Is that the whole point of this? That Kevin Smith - I mean Quentin Beck - is a cinematic genius? OK, maybe I'm thinking about it too much.

Mysterio's motivation (and accompanying speech) is very Silver Age. Like it's dripping with gooey cheesiness. And the plan itself is kinda stupid. Pretty much acknowledged as so. Continuing my theory from the last paragraph - don't feel so hard on yourself Kevin. I like your movies. They're creative and original, I swear. OK, now I'm overthinking it. Still, in the end, I think Smith is saying that he tried to make a good Daredevil story even if not every element is fresh or unique. It's the execution that counts.

Overall, not good, not bad. 95% of it is exposition so it's hard to give it too much credit. I'll go Three and a Half Stars. Not sure how there's another part.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Foggy's Pal]

I wonder if this cover was released three months in advance like they are now. Boy, that would have ruined things:)

[Mike Murdock]

Yeah, I would hope not. I ran into a similar issue with Part 5. The cover I posted is technically a variant cover that certainly could be a spoiler if you've never read this story before (and you figured out what it was showing). However, it was a far cooler cover so I had to post it anyway.

As far as I'm aware, the cover with Mysterio is the main cover, not a variant, though.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Foggy's Pal]

Just read #7- I both love it and hate it. I just don't like Mysterio's reasons. He is dying, so his swan song is to beat a "Second stringer"?!?!- I guess it shows how desperate he is, but I was hoping for something more. The part I love is when DD calls him out for trying to be Kingpin when he clearly is not. DD echoed my thoughts. But at the same time, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Is Smith playing to the audience-those of us who read Born Again?I really go back and forth on this issue and series, but it seems contrived. I don't feel like there is a great story here, just a lot of nods to those of us who love DD.

[Francesco]

that's part of the problem with Smith. He fills his writing with nods, like an annoying nerd.

[Mike Murdock]

I was saving my full opinion until after the final part, but my view is "good story" at best. It is possible for something to be derivative or borrowed heavily from something else and still be good. But, there's no question, in terms of drama, that Mysterio's plan never reached the level of the Kingpin's in Born Again. Because of that, the same dramatic weight isn't there. But it's also a little unfair to compare a story to Born Again, even if the story itself deliberately invites comparison.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Dragonbat]

This would have made so much more sense as a Spider-Man story. I'll admit that I'm being unfair on one thing. My image of Kingpin pretty much moves from Born Again to Bendis. Since this story is pre-Bendis, I know that I should not fault Smith for having Kingpin happy to tell Mysterio everything he wanted to know about DD. At this point, I can't call it OOC, when all the stuff that screams to me that it's OOC didn't exist at the time. But it's now 2014 and I've read Bendis's Kingpin and I'm having a hard time forgetting it.

Especially since, as everyone else has pointed out, there are too many things in the scheme that don't make enough sense. He can't beat "his" Spidey so he goes for DD because he wants to beat up on a second-stringer if he can't have the nemesis he's previously locked horns with. He's killed... how many people? Probably more in this arc than in his entire career.

I do like DD focusing on what he needs to beat Mysterio and save the baby. That part works very well. But the whole scheme and setup... really not.

[james castle]

Welcome to the (basically) final issue of:

WHAT IS THE BAD GUY DOING AND WHAT DOES HE WANT?

I may write a little thing next week but at this point the bad guy’s “plans� have been laid bare so this is it. When I started this I said I wanted to see if the plot hung together. Now that all the pieces are in place and the mysteries have been revealed we can finally answer the age old question: Does the plot make any sense? SPOILERS: No. No it doesn’t. If that’s enough for you, thanks for reading. If you’d like to see just how terrible the plot is, read on at your own risk!

Bad Guys:

Big picture: Mysterio is the bad guy and his plan was to drive Matt mad so that Matt would kill him. This way Mysterio, who now has cancer, would go out in a blaze of glory! Why Matt? Well, because Mysterio was worried that Spider-Man was actually a clone now. So why fight a clone of your arch-enemy when you can fight a completely random enemy instead? Wait, what? Why would Mysterio choose Daredevil, a hero who doesn’t kill people, to kill him? Who knows?

Anyway, that’s the big picture. So how did Mysterio execute this plan?

1. Mysterio dressed up as a doctor and told Karen she had AIDS.

2. Mysterio kidnapped Gwen, drugged her and artificially inseminated her so that she would think she had a magic baby. Wait, what? Didn’t Mysterio say “That the whelp was seeded without our knowledge is one thing� in the first issue? Yes. Yes he did. And he said it in private to Mr. G while he had zero reason to lie. Okay, one huge mistake isn’t the end of the world.

3. Mysterio blew up a maternity ward. UPDATE: No he didn’t! Wait, what? Who did then? Who knows? Apparently this was a random event that Mysterio simply capitalized on. Wow. Okay, so this is a bad start.

4. Mysterio hired two rude dudes to kill Gwen's parents before they could ask any questions or have blood test done on the baby. I’m just gonna leave this one alone.

5. Mysterio hired the two rude dudes to "eliminate" "the quarry". Okay, so given that the baby was central to Mysterio’s end game plans (such as they are (see below)) we know that the quarry that the two rude dudes were trying to eliminate was Gwen. Wait, what? Clearly, part of Mysterio’s plan was to have Gwen deliver the baby to Matt. BUT the two rude dudes are chasing her BEFORE she even knows she’s supposed to find Matt. So...if the two rude dudes had succeeded in killing Gwen the plan would have been over before it started. Maybe they weren’t supposed to succeed! Maybe Mysterio was counting on Matt saving her! Well, no. First off, he kills the two rude dudes for failing to kill her. Second, he complains to Mr. G that Daredevil crossed paths with Gwen sooner than expected. Um. Yeah, there’s no making sense of this. Especially since it’s Daredevil’s “early� contact with Gwen that leads Mysterio to “intercede more directly�:

6. Mysterio, using drugs and illusions, appears before Gwen and tells her to seek out Matt Murdock/Daredevil. Wait, what? Two things. First, Mysterio complains that his Two Rude Dudes failed to eliminate the quarry but then he has IMMEDIATE access to her in basically the next scene. If he wanted to eliminate her he could have done it then. But of course he didn’t want to eliminate her because she still had to deliver the baby to Matt. So he was mistaken about wanting to eliminate her? Maybe he wanted to eliminate the baby? Sigh. And second, Daredevil crossed her path too soon so as a fix he immediately sends her to see Matt? What is going on?

7. Mysterio did not have anything to do with the apparently non-miraculous birth. Wait, what? He did.

8. Mysterio plans to intercede in a more direct way. He clearly interceded when he went to go see Matt and Karen and told them to kill the baby (even though he really, really didn’t want them to kill the baby (again, see below)).

9. Mysterio plans to appeal to Daredevil's humanity. Mysterio did this when he told Matt to kill the baby and when he got Mr. Gabriel to tell Matt to save the baby (wait, what?).

10. Mysterio, tells Matt the baby is the anti-Christ and has to be killed. He gives Matt 48 hours to deliver the baby to them and warns that while he has the baby bad things will happen to him. Mysterio leaves behind a cross thing in Matt’s hand that is laced with a drug that prevents him from thinking rationally whenever someone suggests the baby is innocent. He does this, presumably, so Matt will kill the baby. Wait, what? Keep in mind that Mysterio’s eventual “end game� is to kidnap the baby back so Matt has to come to the gauntlet. Wait, what? Also, what if Matt HAD just given the baby to Mysterio? Then he wouldn’t have even cared that he had it so he wouldn’t have come to the gauntlet. So, again. Plan over.

11. Mysterio wants to kill the baby because it’s the anti-Christ (according to him). Nope. Apparently he wants to give the baby to Matt for a bit and then take it back. BUT, note that he doesn’t want to do that so much that he actually keeps track of the baby.

12. Mysterio visits a smoking Karen in Matt’s apartment when Matt is out. He tells Karen that she has AIDS, in part, because of the baby and tries to get Karen to help. He strongly implies that if the baby isn’t killed Matt will also come down with AIDS.

13. Mysterio uses drugs and whatever to frame Foggy for murder.

14. Mysterio (via Mr. Gabriel) wants to know the whereabouts of the baby. NOTE: it’s not clear at what point Mysterio realized he didn’t know where the baby was. When Mysterio meets with Matt and then later with Karen he clearly seems to think they (or at least Matt) has the baby. In fact, on both occasions Natasha had the baby. IN FACT, Mysterio meets with Karen and tells her to kill the baby and then the VERY NEXT scene is Mr. Gabriel (on Mysterio’s behalf) asking Matt where the baby is.

15. Mysterio (via Mr. Gabriel), who like everyone else, knows DD is actually Matt Murdock, does not want to even risk harming DD.

16. Mysterio has been planning all this for over a year. He’s spent a vast fortune and is doing this as his swan song.

17. Mysterio is an “old friend� or enemy of “The Arachnid�. He sure is. Obviously, he isn’t a Daredevil villain by any stretch of the imagination but he’s certainly a Spider-Man villain.

18. People used to laugh at Mysterio. True. In fact, some people laughed at this reveal.

19. Mysterio hired Bullseye to find the baby (since his foot soldiers can’t) and to beat up anyone who is hiding it. NOTE: Mysterio did NOT hire Bullseye to either beat up Matt’s mom OR kill Karen. Both things are just a fluke. ANOTHER NOTE: Again, this is all pretty weird because at this point Mysterio thinks the baby’s with Matt even though it’s been with Natasha almost constantly since the beginning of the second issue. Mysterio has met with Matt and Karen and been in Matt’s office and home but doesn’t know that Natasha had the baby most of the time?

20. Mysterio does not want Daredevil dead.

21. Mysterio lures Matt to an office building, using the baby, where he has set up a gauntlet of bad dudes.

22. Mysterio has Mr. Gabriel dress up as Baal again. Mr. Gabriel comes to Matt’s aid in the fight and tells Matt that the baby is alive and can’t be sacrificed until Midnight. Matt sees through the disguise and beats him up.

23. Mysterio locks the baby in a vacuum just so he can make a speech and then shoots himself.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Francesco]

[The Overlord]

Well I will say that this story isn't that bad, but is not that good either. Its not the worse DD issues ever.

I think if Mysterio's plan was to kill DD and then kill himself in a very public way, it would have made more sense. He would have thrown these obstacles in DD's way to thrown him off his game, maybe even hire Bullseye to kill DD's loved ones and soften DD up, before delivering the killing blow himself. You have had to rewrite the story, a lot, trim a lot of the fat, that would have required a major rewrite. This story does seem like a first draft. It seems like it would need a lot of changes to work.

As for Mysterio not having a good motive for messing with DD, Mysterio never had a good for messing Spidey either. Mysterio always just came off as some fame hungry attention seeker, they retconned a reason why he was black balled from Hollywood recently, but Mysterio's whole M.O seemed to be a desire for fame, rather then any sort of personal vendetta against any hero. Sure Mysterio doesn't like Spidey for ruining his plans over the years, but in his first appearance he deliberately framed Spider-Man to make himself into a hero. Spidey has more legitimate reasons to hate Mysterio then vice versa, Mysterio was the one who started their feud, not Spidey.

If you really hate this story, you could say it never should have been written, but if you think the ideas was okay, but could have used a different writer or villain or execution, it is kinda interesting to examine.

If they took this basic idea and didn't go with Mysterio, what would have been done instead? The writers had just used Mr. Fear not too long ago, they may not have wanted to use him again so soon. They couldn't use Kingpin, that would have madde this story more of an Born Again rip off and this whole plan seemed too over the top for Fisk, it seems like the work of an overly dramatic super villain, not a crime boss. I guess they could have Purple Man do it, his powers give him limitless resources, he has reasons to dislike DD and I could imagine him doing something this over the top. But Bendis seemed to have plans for Alias, this story happened before Bendis made Killgrave into a sadistic, rapist psychopath. I'm not sure what other DD villain would try to pull of this scheme in terms of M.O and resources. Maybe Owl, but that seems like stretch, this doesn't seem like something he would do.

[Mike Murdock]

Last One!
Guardian Devil pt. 8: The Devil's Deliverance



Due 11/23
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[Mike Murdock]

This is essentially an epilogue. It's about as dialogue-heavy as last issue, but it's sweet and sentimental (which is a nice way of saying sappy and sacherine). But it's a satisfying ending to the story. Well, as satisfying as a story could be that's about the pointlessness of it as much as anything else. Ironically, the pointlessness of tragedy is one thing that people use to doubt God's existence. This is a story that is about testing faith in order to show the strength of faith, but it also ends with the prophesy being an illusion and so many deaths for no good reason. I know it shows Matt deciding to go into a church one more time at the end, but a perfectly reasonable response would be to be done for good after all that. That being said, I'm OK with this time for Matt to go in. I tend to see him as someone who may have gone in as a kid but doesn't really regularly attend. After all that, I can see him thinking it a good idea at least this one time. To me, that doesn't seem out of character. It's his actions at the beginning that seem out of character. If anything, the story would make more sense if he didn't want to go at all in the beginning but decided to at the end.

A few miscellaneous thoughts: The turnout for Karen's funeral was a heartwarming who's who. In addition to the superheroes, I thought the Fat Boys (the little kids from the free legal clinic during Nocenti's run) were a nice touch. She was, after all, essentially a mother to them. Once again, I'm really disappointed the Foggy Nelson storyline just vanished. Sucks for Foggy no matter what. I will point out it didn't get resolved until after the funeral, so he had to miss it entirely while stuck in jail. Karen's last gift to rebuild the lawfirm is apparently supposed to be his required act of selfishness. In the end, he's still going to use it to help the downtrodden of Hell's Kitchen. I have to say, he's pretty crappy at being selfish.

I'll give it a generous four stars. It was a nice, pleasant ending to an up and down story.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[james castle]

WHAT IS THE BAD GUY DOING AND WHAT DOES HE WANT? EPILOGUE

Okay, so there's only one more plot to remember/tie up:

Mysterio uses drugs and whatever to frame Foggy for murder. Foggy is later released because "they cleared the charges". So. Yeah. That's it. The End.

I hate Kevin Smith so much.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Foggy's Pal]

Well, I am a huge fan of Kevin Smith and listen to a lot of his podcasts. Having said that, I'm so disappointed by this last issue., and story overall. It seems that, rather than tell a good story, Smith has chosen to ape a previous storyline, touch on spirituality maybe because he was once a Catholic, and lastly spew his opinions on superheroes and the women in Matt's life. I don't think there was even a need for this issue. I love a talky book (BENDIS is my favorite) but this issue seems self serving. Every writer has opinions on superheroes and their characters in general, but the goods ones work it in through the action and engaging story; they don't have the characters blatantly speak it-and certainly not twice in one book.

I am ready for Mack! (I assume we are moving to the next storyline)

[Mike Murdock]

Post your opinion in the other thread if you think that's what we should do next.

My view of Smith overall is that he didn't do a great job. I thought there were moments where the voice was off entirely. But I do think, while the story didn't hold up, it had some good moments and it was relatively interesting throughout. I also think he was heads and shoulders above the crap that was happening throughout the early 90s. When compared to that, he's pretty good.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons