Daredevil Message Board

[The Overlord]

Its pretty obvious that Daredevil was changed from its Silver Age incarnation, to what it became after Frank Miller's run on the title. But elements from the Silver Age still work in a modern DD story and what elements are no longer relevant?

It seems like his supporting cast, Foggy and Karen Page, were still relevant in the Post Miller era (though Karen has been dead over 14 years now). His rogues gallery has had mixed results, characters like Stilt-Man, Leap-Frog and Matador never really found their footing in the modern era. I read Stilt-Man's first appearance, it wasn't bad, but he would have worked better as a one shot villain rather then a reoccurring one. However other Silver Age DD rogues like Mr. Fear, Owl, Purple Man, Gladiator and to a lesser extent Mr. Hyde (who is very hit or miss) have found relevancy in the modern era.

It also seemed like the yellow costume was quickly ditched in favor of the iconic red one, showing that sometimes change can be necessary right away.

[beneverett]

Very early on, while he was still in his yellow duds and for a short period afterwards, The writers (Stan Lee in this case) tried to add some extra features to his billy club that never stuck, which was a little disappointing as some of them were pretty practical (lock-pick, concealed microphone, etc.). He also had a hollow portion filled with capsules that provided the nutrients of a full meal if I remember correctly, and it was roomy enough to conceal a large sheet of plastic wrap which he used to defeat the Purple Man in their first encounter -obviously that is a bit far-fetched. In the end, I think keeping the billy club simple was the right choice. I didn't feel that the Mr. Kline "robot assassin from the future" story played out well either. It is interesting going through some of the villains you mentioned. Bendis used the Leap-Frog in his very first run on the book and Brubaker used a Matador during his. While these were not the original characters, they still found a way to make them somewhat contemporary. Honestly, I think it isn't the elements so much as how those elements are handled by the creative team. Waid's run has a lot of that silver age flavor, but I think that he and his team have done an excellent job overall of presenting these elements in a way that works with the stories they are telling and builds on what has come before.

[Mike Murdock]

I don't think Bendis was using Leap Frog in any Silver Age sense. It was very much "look how stupid he is." There's some merit to that. Before Frank Miller, Daredevil legitimately had one of the weaker rogues galleries for Marvel. The whole story was intended as a tribute to Miller (using the perspectives of other characters, taking a small, personal story where the hero isn't necessarily a hero, and telling it well, etc.). But I maintain that Miller probably felt the same way about Stilt Man as Bendis felt about Leap Frog.

And, you know what. I have no problem with that. He's a corny character. Plenty of characters are capable of being redeemed and updated, but others are best left buried in the past. We're not in the silver age anymore. We have to acknowledge that. It's still possible to go back and read and enjoy those comics without having to sacrifice modern reader sensibilities by doing the same things today.
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[beneverett]

I will concede that neither Leap-Frog or Stilt-Man particularly stand out as being genuine threats -Leap-Frog specifically, seeing as how DD already had a frog themed bad guy in Frog-Man from the Ani-Men-, and I will grant that his rogues gallery has been underwhelming in spots (I don't think anybody is waiting for DD to re-team with Uri Geller for a rematch with Mindwarp and his Think Tank). But I still maintain that, for the most part, it isn't the elements themselves so much as how they are handled. I liked Waid's Leap-Frog a little more than Bendis's if only because Waid tried to do more with him than say "look how stupid he is." True, Waid is approaching his stories in a different way from Bendis, and to be fair, I understand what BMB's LF wanted to accomplish whereas MW's LF was a bit vague. I suppose what I'm saying is that it depends on the context. Take the Mandrill for example, would a story where he uses an army of brainwashed women to conquer the U.S. work today? Absolutely not, that's beyond absurd! But the Mandrill himself remains an interesting character with a great amount of potential, and to see him treated as a joke character or one panel boxing dummy as he has been in recent years I feel is also absurd - albeit for different reasons. I hope this makes some sense, I admit this reply isn't as focused as I would hope.

[The Overlord]

[beneverett]

I understand and agree with your point in regards to how Bendis used Leap-Frog, and you are right in pointing out that this was not the original Silver Age character but a second person using the moniker. I suppose in retrospect Bendis was doing what I think is a good thing with characters like that, only it might not have appealed to me in the way that, let's say, Waid did. Which is fair enough, I understand that everyone can't be pleased all of the time. I suppose my point of contention was in the idea that even if Bendis wasn't telling that particular story, he still would have thought that a frog themed super villain wasn't worth any consideration beyond that of being an object for ridicule and that Waid took that concept as a challenge, like "how can I make this work?" As for the Mandrill, I can see your point in regards to redundancy, at least as far as powers are concerned. But again, this is where context comes into play. Take the Green Goblin and the Hobgoblin for example, in terms of powers and abilities they're more-or-less identical. What really separates them is the fact that they both want different things, or want to get things in different ways. Another example could be Harry Potter and Gandalf. Both are wizards, both fight for good, but both are still different and go about their tasks in unique ways. If a writer chose to emphasize the Purple Man's sociopathy in one story, and the Mandrill's violent misogyny in another, they could end up using a pair of similar characters in two very distinct ways. As for Mr. Fear, I would see him using - well fear to get what he really wanted. The attractant pheromone would just be an additional means to an end. I see him making the other Mr. Fear (his nephew, Alan Fagan, who also has an attractant drug as well. Fagan's daughter was also a fear based baddie at one point called Shock, and then there's Calavera from DD Reborn - but I'm getting carried away) or any fear based villain who tangles with DD pretty redundant. But again, it really varies. I think that we are in agreement in suggesting that there can be a place for most of these various concepts and characters regardless of when or where they were introduced, it really depends on how they are handled within the framework of the story.

[The Overlord]

[Ash-n-Bone]

I think you've all just pretty much hit the nail on the head. Even now, Daredevil's rouges gallery is pretty bad. Kingpin, Bullseye, the Hand. These are his best villains and always provide the best stories. To a lesser extent, Owl, Mr Fear, Typhoid and Killgrave who have so much potential but are often wasted.

I agree, the characters that Nocenti introduced were awesome. Bushwacker, Bullet, etc...for some odd reason, no other writer has really put these guys at the forefront where they could be put to really good use.

And what about Micah Synn or Madcap? There is so much more Marvel could do to improve DD's rogues galley but they just won't. I know Waid has been playing around with it which is interesting but I can't help but feel that the next writer will quickly go back to the Hand.

[The Overlord]

[Mike Murdock]

[The Overlord]

[Mike Murdock]

He also had a gun for a hand. That makes him a bit different from Bullseye. I don't recall any religious connotations with the character, but it's been awhile. What do you remember specifically?

It's a shame he was killed off by Wolverine (although I will point out his first appearance also involved Wolverine, so it's fitting to keep the mutant connection). Then again, it's Marvel. Wolverine's dead too right now. Hopefully, they'll both come back.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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[Mike Murdock]

Sorry about the doublepost.

I have to say, as much as I know it wouldn't work, I sometimes miss things like this from the Silver Age.

Also, I knew the time period is sometimes referred to as the Marvel Age of comics, but I had no idea Marvel referred to it themselves at the time they were creating those comics.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

[admiralpetty]

I'm split on the concept of silver age elements in modern comics, sometimes it is done well in a way that makes sense, or provides some nice comedic value(like Stiltman's appearance in Miller's run). Other times it brings back things that really should have been left in the past.

Bendis' treatment of Leapfrog has been mentioned several times in this thread. I personally thought Bendis used him superbly, he took a goofball villain, but used him in a way that showed the true darkside that even goofball characters like that can have. In a sense it really makes sense that losers like that would be abusive with their children. So even though he used a silver age element like Leapfrog, the use of the character worked with in the context of modern storytelling, and to some degree gave further credence to some of the silver age elements from the DD's past.

Also, considering the recent discussions of Mr Fear, I think it's about time for him to come back. He still has a lot to answer for, considering what he did in Brubaker's run. Although I think we will probably have to wait til after Waid's run is complete to see that come to fruition, doesn't seem like something that Waid would be interested in touching(even though it was nice to see him point out how guilty Matt still feels over Milla).

[Mike Murdock]

I get the impression that Waid is starting to move Daredevil slightly darker with the Killgrave storyline (although I'm not caught up so I'm avoiding the details). I like the idea of pushing the paradigm slightly lighter than the Bendis/Brubaker era. Frank Miller took Daredevil to dark places, but he always insisted every time when asked that those moments had to pass. If the guy is always in a dark place, you don't feel how dark it is. Somewhere between Waid and what we're used to is probably best. When we reach that darker point, Mr. Fear can return.

Regarding Bendis and Leap Frog. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying it was bad what he did. I'm just saying it certainly wasn't Silver Age.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons