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DD Book Club: Parts of a Hole
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another great issue with some good build up and characterization. As others have said, the thing with the gun was genius. I give credit not just to Kingpin, but on a meta level, to Mack for coming up with something like that. The "gerbil incident" at the beginning had me laughing.

I don't know if this even really counts as complaint, but the only thing that seems odd to me is Maya's connection with Fisk. I mean, there is definitely nothing wrong with it, but for such a long established character to have such important relationships with both Maya and Crazy Horse, you'd think that would have come up more in the past. Why have they never been mentioned before? Why no mention of such an important business partner in the past? After all the years of tangling with Daredevil, why has Fisk never before thought of siccing her on him?

I know the real reason is because they are creations of David Mack just for this story, and none of the past writers could have foreseen this. I'm more concerned that there is no in-story reason given Maya's absence up to this point. Maybe a quick line that Maya lives somewhere else and is just visiting or something. It wouldn't be too hard to come up with something like that given that she's apparently a professional dancer, but instead it's treated like she's always been there and just never showed up. This doesn't detract from the story, however. It's still great, and I think Maya is a very well done character in her own right.

By the way, am I missing something about the safe? Why was Matt looking for the safe, and where did he get the stuff about Crazy Horse? I assume that come from the last issue and I just overlooked it or don't remember it. Somebody want to jog my memory?
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The introduction of the recap page not long after this arc made that exposition kind of needless.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LightningandIce, I do agree about Maya coming out of nowhere. Like I said before, there are a lot of parallels with Typhoid Mary's first story. If this is something he's had in his back pocket, why wait for this one? The only real explanation I can think of is she wasn't ready yet, but that's fairly weak given what she can do.

As for the safe, I think that was just something he generically knew the Kingpin had access to and decided to just respond impulsively to mess with him. I certainly don't recall anything about a safe ever mentioned previously, although there are countless references to the people the Kingpin has in his back pocket.
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 15 Jan 2014
Posts: 144
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come to think of it, the first time DD met Kingpin, there was a safe, but it had no combination. It just had a door so massive that only Kingpin could open it. In theory. I wonder why he changed it.
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
LightningandIce, I do agree about Maya coming out of nowhere. Like I said before, there are a lot of parallels with Typhoid Mary's first story. If this is something he's had in his back pocket, why wait for this one? The only real explanation I can think of is she wasn't ready yet, but that's fairly weak given what she can do.


I don't think Typhoid Mary was in his back pocket, though. IIRC, Typhoid was acting independently at first. She was just kind of a drifter who showed up and started causing trouble on her own. Kingpin saw what she was up to and recruited her. I just think the entire thing with Maya could have been solved with one sentence, Kingpin saying something like "Maya! It's good you had time to take a break from your busy schedule to come visit!" or something like that.

As for the safe, now that I think about it, it might be something that comes up later in the story. It's been almost a year since the first time I read this so some of the finer details have slipped my mind. I think it might tie in with the incident at the beginning of this issue in the hospital. Without spoiling anything, I think that "Lenny in the hospital" comes in to play again further along, and I think there might be a connection between that and the safe. But like I said, my memory on the specifics is a little hazy, hence why I didn't think of it until now, so I could be wrong.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Up next:

Daredevil #11 - Parts of a Hole Pt. 3: Dinner and a Movie


Due 12/13

Also, I need your thoughts. Daredevil Vol. 2 Issue 12 is Gunplay by Joe Quesada. It's connected to the storyline, but it's not part of the story. It was done mostly because everything was falling behind schedule. Do we want to read it as well or to skip it?
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Foggy's Pal
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 12 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
Up next:

Daredevil #11 - Parts of a Hole Pt. 3: Dinner and a Movie


Due 12/13

Also, I need your thoughts. Daredevil Vol. 2 Issue 12 is Gunplay by Joe Quesada. It's connected to the storyline, but it's not part of the story. It was done mostly because everything was falling behind schedule. Do we want to read it as well or to skip it?


I say we skip it or just add it in the same week as the next issue. It doesn't move the story forward and that art is jarring.
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 15 Jan 2014
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No strong feelings on read/skip/combine. I'll just go with the flow on this one.
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Dragonbat
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 15 Jan 2014
Posts: 144
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very strong writing. I love seeing Matt relax. The movie sequence is great and David Mack has really sold me on how the fight goes down. Too many of these "good guys don't realize they're on the same side" throwdowns require mind control or OOC-ness to work. Not here.

Excellent pacing and strong writing. 4.5 stars from me.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great issue. I love the flow of the art -- the steam from the coffee and the soup; the musical notes; the smiling chipmunk; the childish drawings of Daredevil.... If I absolutely need to find something to nitpick over, it would be the guy on the cleaning crew reporting back to Kingpin. Matt would detect him, but he doesn't. Otherwise, I love this issue.

I'm for doing the next two issues next week.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we'll do both issues next week. That seems to be the slightly stronger preference and why not, the interlude is a quick read.

I like this one a lot. The romance scenes at first are wonderful and terrible at the same time. It's a sense of relief after Karen. It's great to see Matt happy. The two do seem to fit well together. On the other hand, you know what's coming. You know it can't last. Hell, you know that a poor little janitor might die while they're having fun. And like I said before, this is a story of parallels and I know what's coming for Maya as well. In many ways, she's a child, but she's also a weapon. And she's caught up in a game by a terrible man.

And when the fight does come, it stings. Echo is, of course, written to be Daredevil's match, but she sells it well. This is mostly a credit to Joe Quesada. When he draws Echo doing the moves of Daredevil or the moves of Bullseye, they're recognizable as those moves. And it comes to the end with the same cruel irony that's been hanging in the background.

Five Stars.
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this issue. It's great. Reading it again now, I understand what the deal was with the safe.

I love the date. I think it's great and I love the way it unfolds. I think Maya is one of the best love interest's for Matt despite only being in his life for such a short time. I think it comes back to this scene. It's just so genuine. I haven't read as much as some of you guys have, but I can't recall ever seeing Matt having such a genuine moment with any of his other love interests.

-I haven't read enough of early v. 1 to know a lot about Karen Page, but I get the impression that most of that relationship was poorly written as a victim of Silver Age writers not knowing/caring how to properly develop a female character for a young male audience. I have seen them interact post-Born Again and they had some moments but it was always in the midst of the superhero drama and I have never seen them interact in a very meaningful way outside of that context.

-Elektra was given a "meet cute" and a montage and that's about it. Immediately after they meet, there is a time skip and then super drama. After that we never see them interact outside of superhero stuff and we just take Miller's word for it that they were madly in love.

-Ditto for Milla. She got a little more screen time before the time skip but we only saw her have a couple very brief talks with Matt. Every time they interacted to any reasonable extent it was always interrupted by the cops or a villain or something.

-I'm not sure how Matt met Heather Glenn but she had a bad attitude and their personalities never really meshed anyway.

-Ditto Kirsten.

With Maya, on the other hand, we spend half of an issue seeing them on a genuine date. There isn't even the slightest talk of villains or crime or anything. We get a lot of cute (and funny!) moments, double narrative from both parties on what they like about the other person. It's one of the only true, real moments of romance I've ever seen Matt have. It's a shame that Maya never became a long timer love interest.

The fight was also excellently done. I annoys me when comic book fights are just a bunch of disjointed panels of random punches and kicks. A good fight scene flows. It has a logic to the character's movements and is almost animated from pose to pose.

As for next week, I don't want to skip an issue but I understand why you might want to. I like the idea of doing both.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Milla has a little bit of one. It's not quite as adorable as these two getting thrown out of the theater, though.

I don't know what Heather's was, but it was right around the time her dad got framed for crimes by the Purple Man, so I suspect it wasn't all that cute of a meeting.

Don't forget Glorianna, who, despite having read it, I can't remember how she and Matt got together. I have slightly less vague memories of how she and Foggy got together, but the point was to show Matt's world falling apart so they didn't focus on Foggy's side too much.
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know next to nothing about Glorianna. The only thing I've read with her in it was Born Again, in which she only had a minor role.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Now to try something different: Two issues at once.

First up:
Daredevil #12 - Gunplay


Second:
Daredevil #13 - Parts of a Hole pt. 4: Trial and Error


Due 2/20
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
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