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DD Book Club: Underboss
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked this issue. It's not legendary, but for what it was, it was nice. There was really only one major plot point in here, and that was the confirmation to Matt that the hit is on his lawyer side. Elektra's letter and the papers found on the criminals confirm that whoever put out the hit, put it out on Murdock, not Daredevil. Of course, the readers will soon find out that this isn't necessarily the case, but it's important to Matt given his present state of mind.

That also explains the Boomerang thing. At this point in the story, the minor villains don't actually know that Matt is Daredevil. Boomerang wasn't going into the hit expecting a fight. As far as he knew, he was knocking off some helpless blind schmuck, then DD showed up.

I respectfully disagree with the posters above me who say that the Nuff Said thing shouldn't have been in the middle of the story. I think this issue still tells a cohesive chapter and even contains a minor plot point. It even feels more complete than previous ones. It actually has a beginning, middle, and end, instead of the first two issues that bounce around with flashbacks and "decompression."

The purpose of the Nuff Said theme was to show that art is just as important in comic book storytelling as dialogue. It's to pay tribute and proper respect to the visuals. It seems to me that if the writer has to resort to some kind of gimmick to make that work, it kind of defeats the entire purpose. I respect Bendis and Maleev for taking on the challenge of continuing their story with this instead of making it easy on themselves.

That said, I now really really want to see Spider-Man fighting mimes.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This time through, I'm noticing a few more details than last time. The fact that he smelled Elektra's letter before reading it with his hand is nicely done. They probably wouldn't have done that if they were allowed to use words this issue (is the writing in the letter cheating?). Apparently, he's smelling a lot of things this issue.

The rest is just an extended action scene. I like that it was one after the other. The menace of Bullseye (referenced earlier in the issue) lurking helped raise the tension of the fights - essentially these are small timers, but it's getting bigger. Shame it wasn't really followed up on in this specific story (the idea of assassins targetting Matt Murdock). I like the way Maleev drew Bullseye here. I kinda wish they kept with it.

Pacing is bad. Next to nothing is added that couldn't have been added in the first page or two. That being said, the format helps him get somewhat of a pass. I liked the action scenes. So, in spite of my criticisms, it gets Four Stars.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #29 - Underboss pt. 4


Due 7/19
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UNDERBOSS - PLOT REVIEW - PART 4

Two notes about how this is all going.

First, I strongly suspect that this whole thing is a comically straight forward plot that is "complicated" by being told out of order and wildly decompressed.

Second, let's just establish that there's no mystery here. Matt is running around trying to figure out who tried to kill him. But to the reader the only possible answer is Silke because there are no other characters. The only characters that even exist in the story so far are Matt, Fisk, Vanessa, Silke, Richard and Ben. Silke is the only suspect so all these pretend mystery stuff is just silly.

New Information is Underlined. Retold Information in Bold.

1. Sammy Silke is a gangster from Jersey who has come to New York to set up shop in Hell's Kitchen. He left Jersey because of problems with a woman. He thinks Superheroes are silly.

2. Silke asks Kingpin to kill Matt because Matt is the lawyer helping someone sue a company that Silke likes [Silke seems unaware that even if Matt was killed the client would just get an adjournment and hire another lawyer]. Kingpin says “no” and tells Silke that “No one touches the lawyer!”.

3. While in a bar, Silke recognized Richard Fisk at the bar and goes to say "hi".

4. About two and a half months later Matt wins a Court case [presumably against the company from (2) above] and Nitro "blows up" in front of Matt on the Courthouse steps.

5. Matt changes into his Daredevil outfit and chases Nitro. Nitro thinks to himself that it's weird that "they" knew Daredevil would show up. Daredevil catches Nitro and demands to know who sent him but then leaves without answer when the police show up.

6. Matt thinks maybe the Kingpin set it up but then confronts the Kingpin (in an underground garage?) and finds out that it wasn't him. Matt notices Silke in the crowd of gangsters that are just standing around for some reason.

7. Matt gets a note from Elektra that says that there's an open contract on him. He's attacked by and beats up Shotgun (?) and Boomerang. He thinks about Bullseye and thinks he sees him in the crowd but doesn't really. [It’s unclear when this happened actually but maybe it’s here?].

8. Matt goes and beats up some people to see who’s trying to kill him. A thug says it’s Kingpin! Despite confirming that it wasn’t Kingpin just a couple plot points ago, Matt goes back and confronts Kingpin again! And Kingpin denies it again.

9. One week later Silke, who has been causing problems meets with The Kingpin and a bunch of other mob higher ups. Silke complains about superheroes and longs for the good old days. All the mob higher ups stab Kingpin [Apparently all the guys who stabbed him never thought to stab him in, say, the heart or throat or any of the other places you usually stab someone to kill them. Also, no one checked if he was dead or not?].

10. Ben finds out that the Kingpin is dead [what is happening with this plot point?].

11. Vanessa finds out the Kingpin is...hurt (?) and flies back to New York to find him being protected by his men (presumably not the men that stabbed him but the really, really loyal ones). Vanessa demands to know whether her son Richard was involved.

TWO. There are TWO scenes that advance the plot.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'll always struggle to figure out why the Bendis and Maleev era has so many fans. I have a few theories.

1. Bendis and Maleev worked well together to create a gritty noir mood. Probably Maleev is more responsible for this than Bendis.

2. Bendis has a good ear for dialogue.

3. These fans are reading trades, and not individual issues.

That's really all I have.

This story so far is nothing new. We all know this isn't the first time that Matt has found a bounty on his head, but Daredevil is acting like it is. Bendis has Matt so angry he wants to beat up everyone in Fleming's Pub (why is he not in Josie's?), as if he's amazed Matt, an attorney who has represented people going up against organized crime numerous times, is being targeted again. This story isn't grabbing me. I've read it before, when it was done better by Miller.

And james castle is right -- we already know Silke is the guy who ordered the hit on Matt. So I guess people who like this story are into it because of the way it's told.

I suppose it's the way Maleev sustains the mood that keeps these readers around. For the most part, he does do a good job. There were panels in this issue that bothered me. The panel show the head and shoulders of Daredevil after he threw around those guys in Fleming's -- he has no dialogue. He's just thinking. Why is his mouth open? He should have a more pensive, closed-mouth expression on his face. It may sound nit-picky, but we spend a lot of time with that panel, because Bendis has put nine captions on top of it.

The very next page seems to have some panels out of order. There's a bald guy standing next to Daredevil. The guy is frozen in place out of fear of Daredevil. The next panel shows the guy falling off a short ledge shouting "Oh my God! Oh my God!" for some reason (?) followed by a long panel of him getting punched in the face by Daredevil. The next panel shows him landing on the ground below that short ledge. These panels are obviously out of sequence. Again, I must ask, what were Editor Stuart Moore's duties on this issue?

But, as always, my biggest complaint is with pacing. Two pages of Vanessa asking who attacked her husband. Five pages eaten up by Daredevel questioning people in and out of Flemings. Two pages devoured by Silke's story about a photographer and a bird. (TWO PAGES FOR THAT!)

None of the dialogue is bad, although I can't ever imagine Wilson Fisk uttering the phrase, "Let's hope." The Fisk I know would put measures in place to make sure his plans work out. Fisk would never cross his fingers and hope for anything. But overall, the dialogue is entertaining.

It's my understanding that these stories read much better as trades than individual issues (although the only Bendis trade I've read was Decalogue, which I thought was nonsense.) I will forever wonder why Marvel simply didn't commission Bendis and Maleev to create these stories for trade, and let other creators tell stories that were more appropriate for monthly installments.

The advancement of the story in this issue is indeed miniscule, and the fault lies with Bendis' glacial pacing. Maleev's art is strong in this issue, possibly because there are very few action scenes -- far less than in the Nuff Said issue.

I give this issue a 2.5 out of 5.


Last edited by Dimetre on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:

None of the dialogue is bad, although I can't ever imagine Wilson Fisk uttering the phrase, "Let's hope." The Fisk I know would put measures in place to make sure his plans work out. Fisk would never cross his fingers and hope for anything. But overall, the dialogue is entertaining.


My problem with Bendis' dialogue is that virtually every character has the same sort of self assured, sort of tough guy tone. Everybody has the same tone. Even Vanessa. It's even worse in his X-Men where virtually any character could sub in for one another at any point.

Sadly, I think this accounts for some of his popularity. For some reason kids like macho characters running around talking about "power sets" in a confident, semi-military tone. It's sort of too cool for school in a way that likely appeals to kids.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Sadly, I think this accounts for some of his popularity. For some reason kids like macho characters running around talking about "power sets" in a confident, semi-military tone. It's sort of too cool for school in a way that likely appeals to kids.

I just remembered how Daredevil complained how pathetic his rogues gallery was in "Wake Up." How meta! It's like something Abed would say in Community.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
james castle wrote:
Sadly, I think this accounts for some of his popularity. For some reason kids like macho characters running around talking about "power sets" in a confident, semi-military tone. It's sort of too cool for school in a way that likely appeals to kids.

I just remembered how Daredevil complained how pathetic his rogues gallery was in "Wake Up." How meta! It's like something Abed would say in Community.


I'll try to refrain from letting this become a Bendis bashing thread but his meta thing drives me nuuuuuuuuuts. There was some line in one of his X-Men books where he sort of time-checks the fact that the X-Men started in the 60s. Kitty says something along the lines of "there aren't just five X-Men anymore like there were in the 60s". Which is great if you want to show off and feel great about the fact that you know when X-Men #1 came out in the real world. But it is terrible if you want to present a compelling fictional world (one that makes zero sense if you apply real time to it). It's all too cool for school and is super annoying.
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really know much to say. As others have said, we already know what's going on. There's no mystery to us. That said, the characters don't. To Matt, it's all a new development. We're also starting to see the details of how Silke's betrayal of Kingpin came about, and why Matt was dragged into it.

This issue was okay. I don't think it's as sparse as others have said. In fact, I think it has the most going on so far, or maybe it just seems that way because there's more talking. I agree that it is still too decompressed, though, and it goes on far longer than necessary. As somebody above said, we really didn't need two pages for Silke to talk about a bird.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were a few nice moments here. The fact that Silke put out the hit isn't a surprise. The fact that Daredevil's secret is essentially an open secret among the organization is. I like that this is a thing that nobody wants to acknowledge because they're all afraid of the Kingpin (although, once you've created this world, it becomes only a matter of time before it has to inevitably come crashing down, as it does here). Silke continues to be the guy that kicks a hornet's nest.

I'm sure everyone here will complain about the decompression with the two pages of Vanessa finding out about her husband. However, I do like the four panels of the same shocked, dead look on her face with changing backgrounds. The story is a character story and Vanessa's role did need a bit of room to breathe (maybe two pages instead of four). There's a bit of the Godfather with Vanessa taking the role of Michael Corleone. Right now, she's kept deliberately out of the family business, but is being forced to take it on. I remembered last time really digging the tension of having to move the Kingpin. I also liked the last question - that's a pretty big moment.

I'll go Four Stars. I'll agree with LightningandIce that this one had more progression, although that doesn't say much.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
I do like the four panels of the same shocked, dead look on her face with changing backgrounds.


I forgot to mention, I liked that as well. I don't think decompression is bad all the time. When used well, it can add a lot to the mood of the scene or the personality of the characters. I rather enjoy when the characters talk like real people. It's just that Bendis has gone totally overboard a few times already. It's not as noticeable in this issue, but the first one had about three pages worth of content that got dragged out across a whole book.
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The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
I think I'll always struggle to figure out why the Bendis and Maleev era has so many fans. I have a few theories.

1. Bendis and Maleev worked well together to create a gritty noir mood. Probably Maleev is more responsible for this than Bendis.

2. Bendis has a good ear for dialogue.

3. These fans are reading trades, and not individual issues.

That's really all I have.

This story so far is nothing new. We all know this isn't the first time that Matt has found a bounty on his head, but Daredevil is acting like it is. Bendis has Matt so angry he wants to beat up everyone in Fleming's Pub (why is he not in Josie's?), as if he's amazed Matt, an attorney who has represented people going up against organized crime numerous times, is being targeted again. This story isn't grabbing me. I've read it before, when it was done better by Miller.

And james castle is right -- we already know Silke is the guy who ordered the hit on Matt. So I guess people who like this story are into it because of the way it's told.

I suppose it's the way Maleev sustains the mood that keeps these readers around. For the most part, he does do a good job. There were panels in this issue that bothered me. The panel show the head and shoulders of Daredevil after he threw around those guys in Fleming's -- he has no dialogue. He's just thinking. Why is his mouth open? He should have a more pensive, closed-mouth expression on his face. It may sound nit-picky, but we spend a lot of time with that panel, because Bendis has put nine captions on top of it.

The very next page seems to have some panels out of order. There's a bald guy standing next to Daredevil. The guy is frozen in place out of fear of Daredevil. The next panel shows the guy falling off a short ledge shouting "Oh my God! Oh my God!" for some reason (?) followed by a long panel of him getting punched in the face by Daredevil. The next panel shows him landing on the ground below that short ledge. These panels are obviously out of sequence. Again, I must ask, what were Editor Stuart Moore's duties on this issue?

But, as always, my biggest complaint is with pacing. Two pages of Vanessa asking who attacked her husband. Five pages eaten up by Daredevel questioning people in and out of Flemings. Two pages devoured by Silke's story about a photographer and a bird. (TWO PAGES FOR THAT!)

None of the dialogue is bad, although I can't ever imagine Wilson Fisk uttering the phrase, "Let's hope." The Fisk I know would put measures in place to make sure his plans work out. Fisk would never cross his fingers and hope for anything. But overall, the dialogue is entertaining.


To be fair, Kingpin could have been factious with that line, saying "let's hope" as a snide way saying DD would give Silke a few painful lessons in reality if he tried to set up an operation in Hell's Kitchen.

Kingpin was giving Silke turf as a favor to his father, but Kingpin had no reason to give Silke a job that was trouble free, Kingpin could have stuck with him with a problematic job so he would learn some humility. Despite Kingpin's calculating nature he never defeated DD for good, so giving Silke an area that would tricky to control would honor Kingpin's debt to Silke's father, without giving Silke too much power.

Kingpin is willing to be polite to polite to Slike, but only to a point, as seen with Kingpin's outburst towards Silke.

Dimetre wrote:

It's my understanding that these stories read much better as trades than individual issues (although the only Bendis trade I've read was Decalogue, which I thought was nonsense.) I will forever wonder why Marvel simply didn't commission Bendis and Maleev to create these stories for trade, and let other creators tell stories that were more appropriate for monthly installments.

The advancement of the story in this issue is indeed miniscule, and the fault lies with Bendis' glacial pacing. Maleev's art is strong in this issue, possibly because there are very few action scenes -- far less than in the Nuff Said issue.

I give this issue a 2.5 out of 5.


I think this story line especially works better in trades, given its nonlinear nature.

I think your points on the pacing have merit, but I think this issue still had some enjoyable moments.

I like Kingpin attempting to tolerate Silke, till he oversteps his bounds and Kingpin puts him in his place. I also liked the discussion between DD and the Kingpin. Also Silke's conversation about the bird have been long winded, but I still liked the banter between Silke and the other gangsters.

I would give this issues 3.5 personally.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #30 - Underboss pt. 5


Due 7/26
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to try to type less about pacing this time.

Maleev's artwork is effective once again in sustaining a gritty noir mood throughout the issue. I do, however, think it's somewhat cheap to use previously published panels to save yourself time and work, but it's what he does.

But I have some big problems with this issue. (Surprise, surprise...)

1. By the time this issue was published, Daredevil already knew Fisk was blind. The first issue of Daredevil/Spider-Man was published before Maya even shot Fisk in the head and caused his blindness. And even if all the events of Daredevil/Spiderman had never taken place (and they did, including Daredevil visiting Fisk in the hospital), don't you think Matt would keep himself informed about Fisk's recovery from that gunshot, and any lingering complications? Fisk is, after all, Daredevil's greatest enemy. Daredevil not knowing that Fisk is blind? Garbage. (Stuart Moore, as editor, shouldn't you have known what was going on in Daredevil/Spider-Man? You could have at least told Bendis that Matt knew Fisk was blind. I think Moore was on a beach in Bermuda for his entire term as Daredevil editor.)

2. Vanessa Fisk has never displayed any desire before to engage in mob behaviour. In her first appearance, when the Kingpin survived a near death experience (sound familiar?) she made Wilson choose between Spider-Man's life or their life together. Wilson spared Spider-Man and retired to Japan with Vanessa. Vanessa, throughout the years has shown disdain for violence, and has yearned to be free of Wilson numerous times. The Vanessa I know would never say, "This cannot go unpunished! This nightmare has to be answered for." This either shows Bendis' inability to understand the character, or unwillingness to learn who the character actually is.

3. I can accept that Richard has suffered abuse at the hands of his father. However, he has grown to adulthood, and had never shown any intent to end his father's life previously. When he was the Schemer, he worked to bring down his father's organization, but when the Kingpin found out the Schemer was his own son, he lapsed into a catatonic state, and Richard joined Hydra to gain access to their medical resources so he could restore his father's health. An abuse victim has a complicated relationship with their victimizer, especially if they're a parent. A lot of the time, the son will try to repair the relationship, seeking approval so they can have a normal relationship from now on. Richard's attitude towards his father in this issue is possible, I suppose, but it doesn't match his previous history.

But Bendis has never shown any regard for what has preceded him when he hops aboard a title.

The bulk of the dialogue is well-written and feels natural. However, I don't believe Wilson Fisk has any Italian heritage, and Silke doesn't seem to be an Italian name either. I'm guessing that, in preparation for this arc, Bendis gave a fresh viewing to Godfather 1 and 2. (Nobody needs to watch the third.) I never thought the Kingpin's organization had to be written like the traditional mafia. Terminology like "cosa nostra," "paisan" and "the other families" work to take the organization to a traditional place where I don't think it belongs. Fisk is not Vito Corleone. Fisk is a cold and calculating businessman who seeks to run the gangs like a corporation. He doesn't care about the well-being of his underlings. He's maximizing profit. He cares about Vanessa, and that's it.

I would be interested to see if other people buy into the idea that everyone in the organization knew that Murdock was Daredevil. As we all know, when Fisk found out Daredevil's actual identity in Born Again, he had everyone who transmitted the message from Karen to himself killed. I personally don't think Fisk would ever be cavalier with Matt's secret, and would treat it as one of his most valuable possessions. Because of this, I find it difficult to buy into this story at all.

As I said, I have very big problems with this issue. It does contain some nice art from Maleev and natural dialogue from Bendis, but there is also a shocking disregard to what came before. I give this issue a 2 out of 5.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UNDERBOSS - PLOT REVIEW - PART 5

New Information is Underlined.

1. Sammy Silke is a gangster from Jersey who has come to New York to set up shop in Hell's Kitchen.

2. Silke asks Kingpin to kill Matt because Matt is the lawyer helping someone sue a company that Silke likes. Kingpin says “no” and tells Silke that “No one touches the lawyer!”.

3. While in a bar, Silke recognized Richard Fisk at the bar and goes to say "hi". Richard tells Silke that Matt is Daredevil and that everybody that works for the Kingpin knows.

4. Silke convinces all of the Kingpins lieutenants to betray and, in fact, kill the Kingpin by promising them that if he was in charge he would charge them less. [THIS IS THE CENTRE PIECE OF THE PLOT AND IS RIDICULOUS].

5. In order to undermine the Kingpin Silke puts out a contract on Matt and says it comes from the Kingpin.

6. About two and a half months later Matt wins a Court case [presumably against the company from (2) above] and Nitro "blows up" in front of Matt on the Courthouse steps.

7. Matt changes into his Daredevil outfit and chases Nitro. He catches him but leaves without answers. Nitro thinks to himself that it's weird that "they" knew Daredevil would show up [WHICH MAKES NO SENSE BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO HIRED NITRO WOULD HAVE NO IDEA THAT MATT IS DAREDEVIL].

8. Matt thinks maybe the Kingpin set it up but then confronts the Kingpin and finds out that it wasn't him.

9. Matt gets attacked by and beats up Shotgun (?) and Boomerang.

10. Matt interrogates a thug and the thug says it was the Kingpin so Matt thinks maybe the Kingpin set it up but then confronts the Kingpin and finds out that it wasn't him.

11. One week later Silke and a bunch of other mob higher ups stab Kingpin.

12. Ben finds out that the Kingpin is dead. At some point Matt goes to the Kingpin’s office and finds some blood on the floor. Ben and Matt meet up and talk in a way that doesn’t advance the plot in any way.

13. Vanessa finds out the Kingpin is...hurt (?) and flies back to New York to find him being protected by his men (presumably not the men that stabbed him but the really, really loyal ones). Vanessa demands to know whether her son Richard was involved. She arranges for Kingpin to be flown to Europe but chooses to stay back to get revenge.
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