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DD Book Club: Underboss
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayle88 wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more fans of this run. It's one of my all time favourites (the entire run, not Underboss.)


Then you should join in! That being said, I do think decompression is a fair criticism no matter what. It's not a story that's best read in its (allegedly) intended format. Furthermore, a six part story is really part one of a bigger story. It's great it all builds, but it also builds too slowly. That being said, I would love more people who like these stories to read them and chime in. It's pretty bad if I have to be the most positive person.

My review:
This is a quick read, memorable mostly for its ending: The scene after the order is given, with Silke surviving assassination and turning himself in was quite cool. The part at the end where he tells the feds was a shock to me. Granted, it's better in TPB because you can turn the page and see a big headline that says "Out." Then you know things just got real. Otherwise, there's some good dialogue that emphasizes the themes but certainly repeats a lot of information in an unproductive way (although prior to the recap page, it was quite common for comics to repeat info to get everyone up to speed).

Overall, Underboss, to me, is about two characters: Silke and Vanessa. Maybe it was out of character, but I thought it did a good job of showing someone exposed to this evil world who loves her husband despite being a monster finally being corrupted and forced to take on his role. I thought Vanessa was a good mix of Michael Corleone meets Kay. Vanessa was classic Mafia out of the Godfather. Silke, on the other hand, is very much modern gangster. He's someone who thinks of himself as someone of the past, proud of their traditions, etc. But he's far too egotistical and impatient to actually follow them. In the end, when those traditions threatened his life, he responded by doing the new thing in vogue for mobsters - turn states evidence. I thought these aspects were well handled. On the other hand, the story (this one and overall) is slow and sparse. Daredevil plays no meaningful role. I don't think that's a bad thing for an issue or two, but we're talking about half a year. Judged just parts 1 through 6, it's underwhelming.

Focusing on this issue, I'll go similarly. Three and a Half Stars. Good moments that don't quite add up to a whole.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
I thought Vanessa was a good mix of Michael Corleone meets Kay.

To me, I think Underboss is more like taking Kay (Diane Keaton's character), and without any sign of her character's descent, having her get really upset and kill a bunch of people, including one of her kids. Without showing the events that let us see her character's descent into evil, I'm not going to be able to accept it. Puzo and Coppola showed Michael's descent into evil. Bendis did not show Vanessa's.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, what was the last in-continuity story featuring Vanessa chronologically speaking? It feels like she hadn't been seen in a long time.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
BTW, what was the last in-continuity story featuring Vanessa chronologically speaking? It feels like she hadn't been seen in a long time.

The last time she was seen was in Volume 2 #92, by Ed Brubaker and Michael Lark. It was part of "The Devil Takes a Ride."
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
BTW, what was the last in-continuity story featuring Vanessa chronologically speaking? It feels like she hadn't been seen in a long time.


I assume you mean her last appearance before this one. Here are a couple places that list her appearances:


http://www.manwithoutfear.com/ddCHARACTERsearch.cgi

http://marvel.wikia.com/Vanessa_Fisk_(Earth-616)
(Edit: I don't know why the first link wasn't working but just click on "appearances" under Links and References)

According to those, her last appearance in Daredevil was v1#317, but that was an isolated case and was not a very big role. Followed by Love and War in 1986, and then not since Miller's first run. However, the second link also shows her making a few Spider-Man appearances throughout the 80's and 90's.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Mike Murdock wrote:
I thought Vanessa was a good mix of Michael Corleone meets Kay.

To me, I think Underboss is more like taking Kay (Diane Keaton's character), and without any sign of her character's descent, having her get really upset and kill a bunch of people, including one of her kids. Without showing the events that let us see her character's descent into evil, I'm not going to be able to accept it. Puzo and Coppola showed Michael's descent into evil. Bendis did not show Vanessa's.


Also, can we keep in mind that Fisk didn't even die? If Fisk died it would be allllmost believable. But Fisk almost gets killed and therefore has to go to Europe so she kills her son? Nope.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UNDERBOSS - PLOT REVIEW - PART 6

Now that the plot is over we can clearly see that Daredevil had nothing to do with anything. He's shoehorned in so that there can be some fight scenes and some pretend investigation but it's all nonsense.

For example, the two reasons we're given for why Silke puts a contract on Matt are that he's the lawyer in a case against Silke's dad's friend and that Silke wants to undermine the Kingpin. Neither of these make sense. If you want to stop a court case against you or even win it, killing the opposing lawyer is not going to help you. Trying to have him killed AFTER he wins the case is even more useless. Second, the undermining thing makes no sense because all the hitmen think they ARE working for Kingpin. Plus, Kingpin doesn't even know about the hit on Matt until briefly before he's stabbed so it barely affects him.

Matt's "investigation" is equally insane. In the final issue he smells the contract photo that he took off Boomerang at least a week prior. So he took it, put in his pocket. Shook down some dudes for information, confronted the Kingpin, visited the Kingpin's office and found blood, told Ben not to smoke and then, eventually, in the rain took it out and took a sniff? What?

Matt has zero effect on the story and thus:

UNDERBOSS - PLOT REVIEW - BONUS “ACTUAL PLOT” SUMMARY

1. Sammy Silke is a gangster from Jersey who has come to New York to set up shop in Hell's Kitchen.

2. While in a bar, Silke recognized Richard Fisk at the bar and goes to say "hi". Richard tells Silke that Matt Murdock is Daredevil and that everybody that works for the Kingpin knows.

3. Silke convinces all of the Kingpins lieutenants to betray and, in fact, kill the Kingpin by promising them that if he was in charge he would charge them less.

4. Silke and a bunch of other mob higher ups stab Kingpin.

5. Vanessa finds out the Kingpin is...hurt (?) and flies back to New York to find him being protected by his men (presumably not the men that stabbed him but the really, really loyal ones). Vanessa demands to know whether her son Richard was involved (presumably someone tells him he was). She arranges for Kingpin to be flown to Europe but chooses to stay back to get revenge.

6. Vanessa and her friends kill all the guys who tried to kill Fisk. She personally kills her son.

7. Silke escapes and goes to the FBI. In exchange for protection he gives them information. Matt Murdock is Daredevil! The FBI probably know that already but whatever.

FUN FACT: Virtually every character in the above plot is acting completely out of character. Richard is washed up and pathetic in a way we've never seen him. Vanessa is blood thirsty in a way that is completely opposite to how we've seen her. Kingpin is at worst helpless and, at best, clueless. Kingpin's men aren't scared of him at all and are happy to betray him for more money. The only person who is acting as one would expect is Silke.

0/10
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LightningandIce
Flying Blind


Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
The only person who is acting as one would expect is Silke.


Who is a completely new character with no precedent, therefor he could act however Bendis wanted and it would make no difference to the reader.
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The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
UNDERBOSS - PLOT REVIEW - PART 6

Now that the plot is over we can clearly see that Daredevil had nothing to do with anything. He's shoehorned in so that there can be some fight scenes and some pretend investigation but it's all nonsense.

For example, the two reasons we're given for why Silke puts a contract on Matt are that he's the lawyer in a case against Silke's dad's friend and that Silke wants to undermine the Kingpin. Neither of these make sense. If you want to stop a court case against you or even win it, killing the opposing lawyer is not going to help you. Trying to have him killed AFTER he wins the case is even more useless. Second, the undermining thing makes no sense because all the hitmen think they ARE working for Kingpin. Plus, Kingpin doesn't even know about the hit on Matt until briefly before he's stabbed so it barely affects him.

Matt's "investigation" is equally insane. In the final issue he smells the contract photo that he took off Boomerang at least a week prior. So he took it, put in his pocket. Shook down some dudes for information, confronted the Kingpin, visited the Kingpin's office and found blood, told Ben not to smoke and then, eventually, in the rain took it out and took a sniff? What?

Matt has zero effect on the story and thus:

UNDERBOSS - PLOT REVIEW - BONUS “ACTUAL PLOT” SUMMARY

1. Sammy Silke is a gangster from Jersey who has come to New York to set up shop in Hell's Kitchen.

2. While in a bar, Silke recognized Richard Fisk at the bar and goes to say "hi". Richard tells Silke that Matt Murdock is Daredevil and that everybody that works for the Kingpin knows.

3. Silke convinces all of the Kingpins lieutenants to betray and, in fact, kill the Kingpin by promising them that if he was in charge he would charge them less.

4. Silke and a bunch of other mob higher ups stab Kingpin.

5. Vanessa finds out the Kingpin is...hurt (?) and flies back to New York to find him being protected by his men (presumably not the men that stabbed him but the really, really loyal ones). Vanessa demands to know whether her son Richard was involved (presumably someone tells him he was). She arranges for Kingpin to be flown to Europe but chooses to stay back to get revenge.

6. Vanessa and her friends kill all the guys who tried to kill Fisk. She personally kills her son.

7. Silke escapes and goes to the FBI. In exchange for protection he gives them information. Matt Murdock is Daredevil! The FBI probably know that already but whatever.

FUN FACT: Virtually every character in the above plot is acting completely out of character. Richard is washed up and pathetic in a way we've never seen him. Vanessa is blood thirsty in a way that is completely opposite to how we've seen her. Kingpin is at worst helpless and, at best, clueless. Kingpin's men aren't scared of him at all and are happy to betray him for more money. The only person who is acting as one would expect is Silke.

0/10


No offense, but I think a 0/10 rating should be given to only the absolute worse DD stories and I don't think this counts as the worst. Using a 0/10 story rating for every story you dislike, makes such a rating meaningless. I don't think the complaints you brought you up warrant that harsh a rating (though I will not deny the validity of such complaints).

Here is another thing to consider, Miller changed certain pre established characters in his run. In the Silver age there was no hint that Gladitator was a psychotic, he was a thug and a bully,Miller retcooned him into a psychotic, there was no real build up with that either. Bullseye and Kingpin were also changed somewhat to fit Miller's needs.

I think Bendis does change characters to fit his plots, but really what happened with Vanessa and Richard seems really tame in terms of character changes Bendis and Mark Millar did later on. Really I think inconsistent characterization of villains is a overall problem with the medium, rather then something specific to Bendis (Doom and Magneto have certainly gotten their fair share of stories where they seemed really out of character over the decades, often new writers will put their own spin on characters, even if it doesn't mesh with the past.)

I would give this story 3 stars out of 5, sure DD wasn't really a part of the story, but I have lots of super hero stories where the hero plays back seat to the villains, so it doesn't bother me too much. It is more of a fun gangster story then anything else and it have impact on DD for the next decade.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, yeah, 0/10 is a little sarcastic but I think, taken as a whole, the story/plot/arc/whatever is terrible. Truly terrible.

As a Daredevil story it's a complete failure because Daredevil has no meaningful role in it.

As a more general crime story it's equally weak. There are no twists or turns or interesting plot points. Gangster 1 wants to take over from Gangster 2. Gangster 1 does so incredibly easily. Gangster 2's wife comes back and kills people. Honestly, the only thing that makes it even vaguely interesting is that it's told out of sequence. But there's no reason to even do that other than to make a straight forward story seem complex. It doesn't serve the story at all.

And the dialogue is not good. I know everyone loves justifying Bendis with "great dialogue" but it isn't. It just isn't.

So, yeah. It's a terrible, failure or a story. Whether that's 1, 2 or 3 out of 10 doesn't really matter.
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The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
I mean, yeah, 0/10 is a little sarcastic but I think, taken as a whole, the story/plot/arc/whatever is terrible. Truly terrible.

As a Daredevil story it's a complete failure because Daredevil has no meaningful role in it.

As a more general crime story it's equally weak. There are no twists or turns or interesting plot points. Gangster 1 wants to take over from Gangster 2. Gangster 1 does so incredibly easily. Gangster 2's wife comes back and kills people. Honestly, the only thing that makes it even vaguely interesting is that it's told out of sequence. But there's no reason to even do that other than to make a straight forward story seem complex. It doesn't serve the story at all.

And the dialogue is not good. I know everyone loves justifying Bendis with "great dialogue" but it isn't. It just isn't.

So, yeah. It's a terrible, failure or a story. Whether that's 1, 2 or 3 out of 10 doesn't really matter.


Fair enough, again I think your criticism is valid, though I am more forgiving you towards the story. Maybe I have just read way worse from Bendis (frankly the way Vanessa and Richard are characterized in this story, wouldn't even make it into my 10 characters that are misrepresented by Bendis, I can buy what Vanessa does in this story far more easily then anything Bendis has written about say Dr. Strange or a bunch of characters I can think of). Maybe I have just become jaded, but it seems like a lot of writers seem to give villains radically different characterization in comics nowadays, so much so that I have gotten used to it.

I just think 0/10 is something I would reserve for the worst DD stories ever and this isn't even close to the worse, IMO. If someone give it a 3/10, I would think that would be fair rating if they disliked the story.
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