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DD Book Club: End of Days
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Can we add to the mysteries: "how the heck did the Punisher escape from prison"?


Hahahaha. No. If we start counting things like that as mysteries we will be here all day.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dialogue in the opening was rough (particularly where his thoughts were interrupted by his screaming in pain in his thoughts). Melvin giving him a random address was a little convenient, but I appreciate his concern that the people Urich talk to die (although, technically, only the Owl died, Urich never got to the Purple Man). While it's probably just an attempt at stalling (make Melvin afraid), it feels like the first time something happened due to the actions of the characters.

The idea that there is a Church of the Hand seems interesting. To me, those are the things I'd have liked this story to be about. I wish Bendis had thought out a history of Daredevil's life for the next ten years and then told the parts that would have made for an interesting story. Instead, we seem to meander through nothingness with the occasional attempt at insight into who Matt was (that either feels wrong or well-trodden) and we'll get an occasional Easter Egg of the future that ends up having no relevance.

Then it breaks down into a big chaotic fight with the hand trying to kill Urich. Punisher showing up was stupid. I hope Urich's not dead, not because I particularly care what happens to him in this story where everyone dies, but because it wouldn't make narrative sense to change characters at this point. But, hey, I predicted who the new Daredevil was. Points for me?

Two and a Half Stars. There's more action, but I couldn't honestly even tell you the point of the story anymore.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
The idea that there is a Church of the Hand seems interesting. To me, those are the things I'd have liked this story to be about. I wish Bendis had thought out a history of Daredevil's life for the next ten years and then told the parts that would have made for an interesting story. Instead, we seem to meander through nothingness with the occasional attempt at insight into who Matt was (that either feels wrong or well-trodden) and we'll get an occasional Easter Egg of the future that ends up having no relevance.

The Church of the Hand thing bothered me. Have you seen Going Clear, the documentary about Scientology? It's excellent, but in order for something to legally set itself up as a religion, it has to be recognized as such by the government. After everything we've seen the Hand do over the decades, why would a government do that? And isn't the Hand supposed to be an organization that operates in the shadows? I don't think they would ever have such an ostentatious building like the one in this issue. The way they operate in the Netflix show, and in Miller issues is more how I would imagine them. This makes no sense to me.


Last edited by Dimetre on Tue May 17, 2016 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dayle88
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pump a bit of money in and the government will do anything for you.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Mike Murdock wrote:
The idea that there is a Church of the Hand seems interesting. To me, those are the things I'd have liked this story to be about. I wish Bendis had thought out a history of Daredevil's life for the next ten years and then told the parts that would have made for an interesting story. Instead, we seem to meander through nothingness with the occasional attempt at insight into who Matt was (that either feels wrong or well-trodden) and we'll get an occasional Easter Egg of the future that ends up having no relevance.

The Church of the Hand thing bothered me. Have you seen Going Clear, the documentary about Scientology? It's excellent, but in order for something to legally set itself up as a religion, it has to be recognized as such by the government. After everything we've seen the Hand do over the decades, why would a government do that? And isn't the Hand supposed to be an organization that operates in the shadows? I don't think they would ever have such an ostentatious building like the one in this issue. The way they operate in the Netflix show, and in Miller issues is more how I would imagine them. This makes no sense to me.


Hahaha. But the thing is that Mike is right. "The idea that there is a Church of the Hand seems interesting". It SEEMS interesting. But then if you think about it (as Dimetre has done) it sort of falls apart. Again, this is classic Bendis. The man has made a career on the backs of ideas that seem interesting but are actually kinda dumb.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I felt my review was a little long so I deleted a paragraph, but I was going to say the whole thing fell apart when eyes started glowing red (even that ended up as anti-climatic too, fwiw).
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In anticipation of the final issue let's set the stage/anticipation with a look at what the critics had to say:

IGN

“Like the issues that came before it, this one was fantastic. Superb storytelling, art, and characterization. Daredevil: End of Days is an incredible series that showed us something we rarely get to see in the world of superhero comic books: the end.” 8.8/10

Comic Book Resources

“Despite that challenge, there is no doubting that this is perhaps one of the consummate Daredevil stories, as the presence of all those crucial to ol' Hornhead spills throughout the pages of "Daredevil: End of Days" #8. There are a lot of talking heads, but there's also plenty of plot advancement, critical reveals and even a few fights as Punisher, Peter Parker and Nick Fury make appearances. The writing duo brings everything home nicely, adding a wrinkle and bit more mystery before buttoning it all up for readers. I even find myself wanting more -- the mark of good storytelling.” 5/5

Exciting!
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil End of Days #8



Due 5/29
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy crap.

That made no sense.

Okay. Okay. Calm down Dimetre. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans.

So, I just found out what Mapone was. Why would that have driven Bullseye nuts? It wouldn't have.

Punisher told Urich that he knew what Mapone was. But all he told Timmy was that every guy's last word is something for which they feel guilty. So Frank was just being arrogant, and only had an idea of what Mapone represented, not what it specifically was. Frank is such a jerk.

I can accept that Nick knew what Mapone was, but denied such knowledge when Ben asked him earlier. It's kind of infuriating that he offered the file to Timmy, who threw it away even though he was asking both Frank and Peter about Mapone earlier.

I still don't know why Matt chose to train Timmy. And when he did, why didn't he introduce him to Mapone earlier? Did he know that Mapone was what this book says Mapone is?

And why the name MAPONE?! It's so stupid!

And, for the third time on this thread, long before this series came out, it was revealed that the Red Room sterilizes the girls in their Black Widow program. (Read Richard K. Morgan's Black Widow: Homecoming. It's a much better read than this.) But, clearly, Bendis doesn't read anything other than his own work, as is the case with all of this world's greatest writers.

And, you know, before this issue we weren't led to think that Mapone might be Timmy's future sensei. That all came out this issue. Kind of made the Mapone mystery of the previous seven issues kind of a wild goose chase.

I don't see how this series could have ended any more stupidly. It all makes absolutely NO SENSE!

I have read a whole lot of crap written by Bendis, but I think this is him at his most incompetent. I give this half a mark out of 5, and that half a mark is for Bill Sienkiewicz. This is garbage.

(You know what really sucks about this? Batman v Superman just opened at a second-run movie theatre in my neighbourhood, so I just saw it last night. So that was crappy already. And then I read this today. My brain deserves better than this.)
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

End of Days Part 8: You Gotta Be Kiddin’ Me.

"Plot"

1. Daredevil named himself the new Kingpin of Hell’s Kitchen.

2. He had a relationship with Black Widow and had a daughter named Mapone. Presumably he sort of abandoned both Black Widow and his daughter at some point.

3. He then went on to sleep with Elektra, Echo, Milla and Typhoid Mary and father five red headed sons - all of which he also abandoned. He also put the Punisher in jail.

4. Fisk came back to New York and Daredevil beat him to death in public. Daredevil and Matt Murdock disappeared and no one knew where he went.

5. Black Widow died.

6. Matt trained Timmy to be the new Daredevil. Which is a bit of an odd choice because Timmy was in his early to mid teens.

7. Matt somehow learned that Bullseye was “back” and told Timmy that he’s off to fight him. Matt also told Timmy that he’s now taught him everything he knows. Well, everything except that heroes don’t kill. You’d think you’d start with that? Or at least that it would make it into the curriculum somewhere.

8. Matt also told Timmy about the importance of fathers. Which is a bit rich given that Matt has had and abandoned 6 children in the last 8ish years at this point.

9. Daredevil and Bullseye fought. Bullseye gained the upperhand and right before he killed Daredevil, Daredevil said “Mapone” - the name of his first born. The word drove Bullseye crazy for literally no plausible reason. Bullseye somehow guessed the correct spelling of a word that he nor anyone else was that familiar with and then killed himself.

10. Timmy became Timmydevil.

11. Nick Fury, Milla, Elektra, Typhoid Mary and Echo don’t know what “Mapone” means. Oh wait. Nick Fury does but he just lies about it to Ben because, as he tells Timmy later on “it’s not like that, kid” (Bendis is terrible. He’s literally the worst).

12. Punisher pretended he knew what “Mapone” means. He said that it was a trigger word that caused Bullseye to kill himself but he’s 100% wrong about this. Why did he sound so authoritative then? Just to be a dick?

13. Punisher escaped prison.

14. While interviewing Bushwacker Ben was pushed out the window by Bullet but Timmydevil swooped and saved him.

15. Timmydevil then went back and killed Bullet.

16. Ben went to see the Owl and then the Punisher then killed the Owl. Ben went to see Killgrave but when he got there Killgrave was dead because the Punisher shot him.

17. Ben went to the Church of the Hand and talked to the head Hand guy who tried to fry his brain to find out who Stick is now. Ben escaped and found Bullseye’s old room. Ben wandered in and looked at some computer files and was shocked by what’s in them! Not that we’ll ever find out what he saw. Honestly. We never find out.

18. The Hand showed up and tried to kill Ben. Timmydevil showed up and saved Ben. The Hand kept trying to kill both of them so The Punisher showed up and saves them both except Ben died.

19. J. Jonah Jameson lost his mind and read an article about Matt’s life that Ben wrote at Ben’s funeral. Peter Parker finally revealed himself as an idiot by noting that “Jonah reading [Ben’s] last work” was a “nice touch”. No it wasn’t. It was wildly inappropriate.

20. Timmy went to Fogwell’s gym where there is a really confusing shrine to Matt. Why would someone leave a picture of Maggie there? Did Maggie leave it? Why? Who else knows that Maggie is Matt’s mom? What on earth are Elektra’s sai doing there?

21. Punisher showed up and again pretended to know what “Mapone” means even though he doesn’t. What a dickhead.

22. Timmy went to have a drink with Peter when Fury shows up and tries to tell Timmy that Mapone is Matt’s daughter. Timmy, inexplicably didn’t care and walked away. Luckily Mapone was there and tells him that she’s Matt’s daughter, kinda, and that her name is also Stick.

Ben(dis)’s Mysteries!

Why did Matt kill the Kingpin? Nothing.
Why did Matt leave New York? Nothing.
Where did he go? Nothing.
How did Bullseye find him? He didn’t.
And what did Matt say with his dying breath? Mapone.
What did it mean? The name of his daughter.
Who’s the guy in the Daredevil suit? Timmy.

Fun Facts!

Illegitimate Kids Shown This Issue: 1.
Running Illegitimate Kid Count: 6.
Did What Happens on the Cover Happen: No.
Cliff Hanger: Why does Bendis still have a job?

Whose Time is it Anyways?

So, Timmy was 6 in Wake Up and he’s 16 now. Assuming that Matt didn’t have a daughter with Black Widow during Wake Up (which he didn’t) Mapone is AT THE OLDEST 10 years old.

Now THAT is Decompression!

The Entire Series. Honestly, this thing is pure, pure, pure trash. Sets up a bunch of mysteries that never get solved and then just completely craps the bed on the two mysteries it does deliver on (Timmy being Daredevil and Mapone being Matt’s daughter). Such. Such. Such trash.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Holy crap.


This whole exercise has been worth it just for that.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last one. I'm actually curious about this. While it didn't seem like the story had much direction for awhile, it started with at least some sense that had a plan and maybe it was just in the execution to make it eight parts. Let's see...

And ... no. This issue feels far more like an epilogue than a conclusion issue, which would be fine if the last seven parts did anything. With Ben's death, I would have liked a bit more reflection on him, but I don't think they did enough to address Matt. I smirked a bit when Nick Fury called Ben Urich Tim's Uncle Ben, though.

Stick being reincarnated as Mapone Romanova is, eh, fine. I'm beyond caring at this point. I don't really think it makes much sense. On the other hand, I don't care enough to think about it. I like that Matt seemingly had a happy moment with Natasha and they had a son together, but I don't think it really fits in with everything else (particularly where they ended up). If the revelation was that he went off the grid and was actually happy, that'd be great, but I'd expect to see some build up to that. I honestly expected the revelation to be that he disappeared and was a hermit in a state of depression. Maybe that's too obvious, but the story at least earned it. This ending was random. Moreover, I'm not even sure if that's what the ending was. It is a good coda for all of Bendis's work. I'll accept it as that even if it's nowhere near as well-written as his best.

Three Stars. I'll be generous. It goes out far more with a whimper than a bang.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:

Fun Facts!

Illegitimate Kids Shown This Issue: 1.


I suppose, in fairness, we don't know this one is an illegitimate child. I also suspect the others were intended to be red herrings. Otherwise, the ending would have no meaning (which is saying something considering the little meaning it has).

Quote:
Now THAT is Decompression!

The Entire Series. Honestly, this thing is pure, pure, pure trash. Sets up a bunch of mysteries that never get solved and then just completely craps the bed on the two mysteries it does deliver on (Timmy being Daredevil and Mapone being Matt’s daughter). Such. Such. Such trash.


Now that I agree with. I think that sums it up completely.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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DesignDevil
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't take part in this book club, so I feel rude chiming in just to be negative, but I couldn't resist.

I read End of Days once. I will never read it again. Thankfully I managed not to ever spend any money on it, however my friend was not so lucky.

Horrible story on every level. Mostly horrible artwork. It reads like what I imagine bad fan-fiction by talentless 13 yr old would.

I'd call End of Days no better than toilet paper, but at least toilet paper has dignity in its purpose.

I pimp Daredevil out to my friends and people I know who enjoy reading and superheroes, especially since the Netflix series dropped, and I specifically tell people to avoid this story like leprosy.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
Stick being reincarnated as Mapone Romanova is, eh, fine. I'm beyond caring at this point.

But that's a minimal requirement for any art form -- to make an audience care. If it fails in that, doesn't that make it a failure?
Mike Murdock wrote:
It is a good coda for all of Bendis's work. I'll accept it as that even if it's nowhere near as well-written as his best.

I find it a good coda for all of Bendis' Daredevil work in that End of Days sucks. Everyone knows that I don't like Bendis' writing, but you do, so I don't know why you would see something so awful as a fitting coda.
Mike Murdock wrote:
Three Stars. I'll be generous. It goes out far more with a whimper than a bang.

I don't know what this series has done to earn any generosity.
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