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Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 19 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:37 am    Post subject: Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run Reply with quote

Tired Devil Dept. - It really is time for some frank talk about the current volume of Daredevil. Let's go ahead and say it: this just isn't working. The single word brought most forcefully to mind by these first 8 issues is "superficial." Charles Soule has opted to write the book as a superficial adventure-of-the-month title featuring a central character with almost no inner life and no real supporting cast. Soule's stories are generic, by the numbers--one could plug just about any other hero into the lead role without having to change much. They have no impact, they don't lead to anything and they don't amount to anything.

Soule has introduced some elements that could, if properly worked, make for an interesting book but after introducing them, he doesn't do anything with them.

Matt as a prosecutor is an intriguing idea and addresses a longstanding dichotomy in the character. Alas, Soule has done almost nothing with it. Everyone with whom Matt works in this capacity is a faceless non-entity. The work itself has primarily been presented as something that sometimes gets in the way of his Daredevil business. Not much, though--he's been shown as free to simply leave his job to go bust heads whenever he wants.

Blindspot, DD's sidekick from Chinatown, is another new wrinkle. Having Daredevil train a protege is something with which a talented writer could work and, of course, Blindspot is a story in himself. Unfortunately, this, too, has been mostly skipped over. Blindspot has barely been touched upon, his training mostly happens off-camera, he was given one brief moment to shine then he practically disappeared from the book--a very brief encounter with Elektra that doesn't go well and seems to have been included for no other purpose than to add to the page-count and he's gone since.

Soule brought in Elektra, which, in a DD book, is like invoking the nuclear option, then didn't really do anything with her. Her two-issue story arc reads like the set-up for a much more interesting story--and, in fact, it lays out some things that will have to be addressed by someone at some point--but Soule walks away from his most spectacular twist (that Matt and Elektra have a child) then just abandons the story he'd set up. The next issue moves on to something else entirely, which can't help but add to the feeling of pointlessness this run has so far generated. In #8, Matt is suddenly participating in a poker tournament in Macau, the tone is suddenly straight James Bond and not so suddenly, I just don't care.

Soule inherited a book that was in utter creative ruin, as low a point as DD had ever been in its 50+ year history. The big Marvel Secret Wars event offered him the opportunity to simply hit the reset button and entirely delete Mark Waid's abominable rape of the character. Whether by choice or by editorial edict, he declined to do so and the "solution" he concocted--having Matt somehow erase from every mind on Earth the knowledge of his secret identity--has made an unbelievable mess of not only DD's continuity but that of countless characters with whom DD has interacted over the years. Large portions of his history are now entirely inexplicable. Elektra, Ben Urich, Spider-Man, the Black Widow--it makes my head hurt to even think about the destruction this has wrought and all in the name of preserving that godawful Waid run that never should have happened in the first place. It's like allowing Waid to continue to destroy the book months after he's entirely left it. And, of course, how Matt did this remains entirely unexplained, something that drifts around between Matt's thoughts from issue to issue. The big, obvious reason why keeping it around as a constant subplot is so problematic is that it couldn't be less interesting. No resolution--if, that is, one is ever even offered--is going to be satisfying or less than an ill-conceived insult. As it stands now, this is just an awful prior run that's being allowed to poison not only what should have been a fresh start but DD's entire history.

Soule's artists have returned some semblance of the proper pulp noir tone to the book, though the writer himself hasn't quite figured this out yet. The first story arc, drawn by Ron Garney and colorist Matt Milla, was, in fact, a great experiment in comic artwork. Visually innovative, perfectly suited to the character and looking like nothing else coming out of Marvel--a joy to see. Unfortunately--notice how that word keeps turning up?--Marvel can't seem to keep a regular artist on the book. In only 8 issues, there have now been three and the two following Garney have simply tried to imitate Garney.

"Superficial" may be the word much of this run brings most immediately to mind but another that also ranks prominently is "disappointing." Soule needs to seriously shape up. If this is really all he has to offer, it's time for Marvel to find a new writer for this book.


Last edited by jriddle on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thayrone Ibsen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this is really nice to read. I completely agree with you. This run is, at least, really, very clumsy. It borders the stupid. It's only real plus side is being a return to "dark/gritty", nice artists and, in other words, the end of Waid's run. Sometimes Soule is incompetent even in handling DD's powers, which should be easy task by now. His stories are of zero risk and gravity, but still he tries, in rookie style, to distract the readers with cliches of the "gritty" variety, adding nothing new to the mythos. One ridiculous example is his Elektra: why on Earth is Matt so effing scared of her, how can she "almost take his damn head off" with a kick or whatever that was? On another of her leg-stunts, he thinks she held off, if not she would've killed him. What the hell? Isn't she the same person who was killed by Bullseye, a guy beaten by DD more times than we can count (ok we can count'em, but number is not the case)? Oh well. Elektra is just an example. So yes, I echo: what is really going on? Nothing. Because it is already stablished in 8 issues what this writer can do, and that's the measure of his take on the character. The best issue so far, IMO, was #4, and that's because of the (imperfect) Matt/DD moments, AND THAT'S saying something, since that issue wasn't really special. Tenfingers and The Hand? They represent no threat, they have zero original ideology, they've got nothing, written by Soule. And this is happening while we wait for Soule's trump card, the terrible secret, the uncanny way Matt sought to regain his secret ID. Oh! Gives me the chillies. Come on! Well. No Waid, good pencils and color. That's gotta be good... Confused Evil or Very Mad

Oh, and please let's not forget about DD vs Punisher, which is EVEN WORSE than what is being presented in the regular series. Hell, it's even worse than WAID's Infinite Comic on DD! Only the "Seventh Circle" title is any good, and that only increases the annoyance, since it would be far better applied in a FAAAR better story.
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jriddle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thayrone Ibsen wrote:
One ridiculous example is his Elektra: why on Earth is Matt so effing scared of her, how can she "almost take his damn head off" with a kick or whatever that was? On another of her leg-stunts, he thinks she held off, if not she would've killed him. What the hell? Isn't she the same person who was killed by Bullseye, a guy beaten by DD more times than we can count (ok we can count'em, but number is not the case)? Oh well. Elektra is just an example.


To be fair, it's not unusual for Elektra to want to beat on him a bit and Matt was neither expecting nor looking for any sort of real fight.

I haven't read the Punisher stuff, so I'll have to defer on that.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the book is taking time to find its legs, but it's been getting much better recently. That being said, I agree that Matt Murdock feels underdeveloped. Given the choice between actual characterization and a fight scene, the choice is always a fight scene.

But Soule is too talented a writer for me to believe it'll stay this way.
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jriddle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just expanded this into a full-blown (and hopefully somewhat better written) article:
http://comicscomments.blogspot.com/2016/06/charles-soules-daredevil-just-aint.html
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jriddle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
I think the book is taking time to find its legs, but it's been getting much better recently. That being said, I agree that Matt Murdock feels underdeveloped. Given the choice between actual characterization and a fight scene, the choice is always a fight scene.


In over half his issues so far, Soule sets up an action scene and everything else is made to happen around it. It's a story structure that's rapidly becoming like a drinking game.

Mike Murdock wrote:
But Soule is too talented a writer for me to believe it'll stay this way.


I haven't read much of his work prior to Daredevil. When he was working on She-Hulk and brought Matt into it, he wrote Waid's idiot Matt, which didn't inspire any confidence in me at all. Thankfully, he hasn't written Matt like that. But he's barely writing Matt (or anyone else) at all.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you read the rest of Soule's She-Hulk? It's zany madcap, but it also built the long game for an interesting mystery. His Uncanny Inhumans and Inhuman before it are more traditional adventure stories with some good characterization.

This Daredevil is certainly the darkest, most grounded he's written, though, but I'm not necessarily sure tone is the biggest issue.
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Thayrone Ibsen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course not, the tone is allright. Dangerous but not dangerous. Serious but not serious. Dark but not dark. New but not new. Daredevil but not Daredevil. It's the same fake mood established so long ago, and very strengthened in the 90's.


And yes, I wonder: if this is Soule at his groundest and darkest... wow.
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time someone new is announced as the writer of Daredevil, I go over to my local comic book shop and purchase a collection of some of their work. In the case of Charles Soule, I bought his first She-Hulk trade. I read it, and I was worried. If you want to know what his She-Hulk run is like, think of Ally MacBeal with the occasional superheroic feat.

But, we're talking Daredevil, so I have to, at the very least, give Soule a chance. The first issue wasn't bad. I liked what Ron Garney and Matt Milla were doing visually. I didn't know why Matt was dressed in black. I didn't know why nobody knew his secret identity. I didn't know why Foggy was pissed off. But I figured that would all come to light.

The first arc's villain, Tenfingers, turned out to have stolen his powers from the Hand, and he is now presumably dead. He wasn't that compelling. Blindspot, in that first arc, took up a lot of room, and actually seemed to be occupying centrestage often. Honestly, Tenfingers was a much more personal threat to Blindspot than he was to Daredevil. Tenfingers would have been a much better foe in a Blindspot solo story than he was here.

I honestly don't think Daredevil needs a sidekick. Robin was created to lure younger readers to Detective Comics. In the following 75 years the audience for comics has shrunk to the point that luring younger viewers isn't going to create a noticeable bump in sales. Better to just make sure that you're telling good Daredevil stories. Is Soule doing that?

There have been some great moments since he came on the title. I loved when Steve Rogers got Daredevil to defuse a bomb, but he couldn't read the digital display. That will stay with me for a long time. I love the most recent issue when he smiled as Alexander Apex couldn't see through Matt's eyes. Those two instances show a keen insight into what makes Daredevil unique, and how his sightlessness poses a danger, while in other instances it liberates him.

But, so far, neither of the two stories Soule has told have ended in a satisfying way. Tenfingers turned out to be less of a threat than we were promised. Elektra was fed a pack of lies, so Matt really had nothing to worry about. There is no better word than disappointing for both endings. And I don't feel I've learned anything new about Matt in Volume 5. I don't really feel I've gotten to know Blindspot. If I never see Blindspot again, I wouldn't care. I'm certainly not going to follow Blindspot to another series.

Having said all that, I find the tone of Soule's Daredevil more mature than not only his She-Hulk work but much of what Marvel is doing these days. Current series like Totally Awesome Hulk and Patsy Walker AKA Hellcat have this excessive irreverence, as if that is what's required to attract young readers. That irreverence was present in Soule's She-Hulk, and I was pleasantly surprised to find it absent in his Daredevil. Of Marvel's current series that I'm following, only Black Widow and the just cancelled Red Wolf are superior (although I'm curious where Steve Rogers is going). I guess I'm finding Marvel to be in a bit of malaise right now. Honestly, I think the best series are currently coming from Image.

And we still don't know why Daredevil is dressed in black, what he did to make everyone forget his secret identity and why Foggy is pissed off. We have a new editor. Will this editor apply pressure to get these secrets revealed? Stay tuned.
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jriddle
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Every time someone new is announced as the writer of Daredevil, I go over to my local comic book shop and purchase a collection of some of their work. In the case of Charles Soule, I bought his first She-Hulk trade. I read it, and I was worried. If you want to know what his She-Hulk run is like, think of Ally MacBeal with the occasional superheroic feat.


I liked his She-Hulk, except for the godawful artwork. At Marvel, editorial seems to interpret "light-hearted tone" as "get some talentless hack to draw the pictures." It's happening now on the Power Man & Iron Fist book.

Dimetre wrote:
Honestly, Tenfingers was a much more personal threat to Blindspot than he was to Daredevil. Tenfingers would have been a much better foe in a Blindspot solo story than he was here.


Yes but I still think it could have been made to work in the context of Daredevil. It didn't really do so because of that whole superficial thing. Stuff on which a much better story could have been built is barely touched upon on the way to the next action sequence.

Dimetre wrote:
I honestly don't think Daredevil needs a sidekick.


No, but it could make for an interesting dynamic if handled properly.

Dimetre wrote:
There have been some great moments since he came on the title. I loved when Steve Rogers got Daredevil to defuse a bomb, but he couldn't read the digital display. That will stay with me for a long time. I love the most recent issue when he smiled as Alexander Apex couldn't see through Matt's eyes.


Pretty small moments though.

Dimetre wrote:
There is no better word than disappointing for both endings.


Not just disappointing though. Matt knows who was playing with Elektra's mind in such an elaborate way and knows it was done to get at him and he's not going to do anything about it?
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humanaccident
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like alot about the new series, the art is good, I like the costume, the taped wrists are a great tribute to his boxer past, the black just makes the most sense for his ninja style of 'heroing'. The tone of the book is spot on, gritty and street tough but with a mystical tilt. The character moments are also good, as someone pointed out above the fact we are reminded of his blindness is brilliant and something that no modern writer has done very well.

That all said I see what you mean about the dissappointing endings, I think we could be on to something great here but it has to develop depth, it feels like we are only getting the highlights, we need more development I think.
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Darkdevil
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ongoing unresolved mystery surrounding how Matt restored his secret identity isn't wholly unique to just DD. Around Marvel, there are currently quite a few such mysteries.

Over in the X-franchise, Cyclops did something that was so abominable that it triggered a massive resurgence of mutant hatred. All three main X-books reference it but we're still no closer to knowing what that action was that when these post-Secret Wars titles began. Thanks to Civil War II, we're just now beginning to learn what happened to Bruce Banner. And then there's the long-standing mystery on what secret caused Thor Odinson to become suddenly unworthy of wielding Mjolnir.

As long as Soule or the editor or both know what Matt did, then I'm comfortable with how they are playing it out. However, if it's something that they have to come up with suddenly on the fly, a last minute sudden reveal for a sales jump, then that's a major cheat, not only for themselves but for us readers as well. (For the record, both Jeff Lemire and Jason Aaron acknowledge that they know exactly the causes of the respective mysteries given above).

As for the rest of Soule's work, so far I haven't had any major problems with it. Tenfingers and the Hand was a decent story, a villain that served as a intro to Matt's new job as an ADA. I will agree, it was more of a Blindspot-driven story, given his personal stakes in the outcome. As for Blindspot, I don't mind him yet. I think the idea of DD taking on a protege is interesting in itself. But we're only 8 issues into this run, this is just the bare beginning of this partnership. I'd rather see how Soule progresses this by say #25 before passing some form of judgement on the possible success of this change.

My only faults with Soule's run so far have been on Matt's personal side of life. The friendship between Matt and Foggy is one of the foundations of this title and yet, we've only seen Foggy twice since this restart. If there's one aspect of Matt's resolution to his secret identity problem that I do have an issue with, it's the effect it had on Foggy. We have no clue so far as to why Foggy is so angry with Matt and that's unsettling.

The other problem I have is the lack of focus on Matt's new job as a prosecutor. This represents a huge change for Matt yet we've seen little development in this area. I'm not a lawyer but I would have to think that switching from a long career as a defense attorney to becoming an assistant DA is a jarring change. But all we've seen is how this affects Matt's time as DD (especially after he got demoted to night court). That's fine, but as others have pointed out, we've gotten little highlight nor development on any of Matt's co-workers nor seen how this change in practice has affected him personally.

Otherwise, still loving the new costume. The art, even under differing artists, has been good. And Soule has provided some interesting character moments for Matt. The Elektra appearance was practically mandated, part of Marvel's ongoing attempts to remold their universe more into line with their movie/TV offerings.

We're still early into this run so I'm willing to see how Soule progresses from here. Will this be a memorable run? Maybe, maybe not.
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ManWithoutBeer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run Reply with quote

jriddle wrote:
Tired Devil Dept. - It really is time for some frank talk about the current volume of Daredevil. Let's go ahead and say it: this just isn't working. The single word brought most forcefully to mind by these first 8 issues is "superficial." Charles Soule has opted to write the book as a superficial adventure-of-the-month title featuring a central character with almost no inner life and no real supporting cast. Soule's stories are generic, by the numbers--one could plug just about any other hero into the lead role without having to change much. They have no impact, they don't lead to anything and they don't amount to anything.


Thank you for putting things better than I could. I totally agree. This run has been a disaster. The darker tone is about all I like, and tone alone cannot carry things or make the rote storytelling in this run compelling.

I vacillate between being kinder and harsher towards this, but when I really think about it.. It is IMO (gulp) worse than Waid, who I'll contend had some legit ups amid more severe downs. Strong statement for some? It should be.

Like I said elsewhere, the silver lining is that Marvel will just relauch the title soon anyway..
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Ninogredo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkdevil wrote:
The ongoing unresolved mystery surrounding how Matt restored his secret identity isn't wholly unique to just DD. Around Marvel, there are currently quite a few such mysteries.

Over in the X-franchise, Cyclops did something that was so abominable that it triggered a massive resurgence of mutant hatred. All three main X-books reference it but we're still no closer to knowing what that action was that when these post-Secret Wars titles began. Thanks to Civil War II, we're just now beginning to learn what happened to Bruce Banner. And then there's the long-standing mystery on what secret caused Thor Odinson to become suddenly unworthy of wielding Mjolnir.

As long as Soule or the editor or both know what Matt did, then I'm comfortable with how they are playing it out. However, if it's something that they have to come up with suddenly on the fly, a last minute sudden reveal for a sales jump, then that's a major cheat, not only for themselves but for us readers as well. (For the record, both Jeff Lemire and Jason Aaron acknowledge that they know exactly the causes of the respective mysteries given above).

As for the rest of Soule's work, so far I haven't had any major problems with it. Tenfingers and the Hand was a decent story, a villain that served as a intro to Matt's new job as an ADA. I will agree, it was more of a Blindspot-driven story, given his personal stakes in the outcome. As for Blindspot, I don't mind him yet. I think the idea of DD taking on a protege is interesting in itself. But we're only 8 issues into this run, this is just the bare beginning of this partnership. I'd rather see how Soule progresses this by say #25 before passing some form of judgement on the possible success of this change.

My only faults with Soule's run so far have been on Matt's personal side of life. The friendship between Matt and Foggy is one of the foundations of this title and yet, we've only seen Foggy twice since this restart. If there's one aspect of Matt's resolution to his secret identity problem that I do have an issue with, it's the effect it had on Foggy. We have no clue so far as to why Foggy is so angry with Matt and that's unsettling.

The other problem I have is the lack of focus on Matt's new job as a prosecutor. This represents a huge change for Matt yet we've seen little development in this area. I'm not a lawyer but I would have to think that switching from a long career as a defense attorney to becoming an assistant DA is a jarring change. But all we've seen is how this affects Matt's time as DD (especially after he got demoted to night court). That's fine, but as others have pointed out, we've gotten little highlight nor development on any of Matt's co-workers nor seen how this change in practice has affected him personally.

Otherwise, still loving the new costume. The art, even under differing artists, has been good. And Soule has provided some interesting character moments for Matt. The Elektra appearance was practically mandated, part of Marvel's ongoing attempts to remold their universe more into line with their movie/TV offerings.

We're still early into this run so I'm willing to see how Soule progresses from here. Will this be a memorable run? Maybe, maybe not.


I agree. I don't have problems with this run so far since it won't reminds me of some v1 style awkward adventure stories while Waid's DD did. Well I'm not totally against Waid's happy Matt. I think Soule's DD gets a good balance between "sweet" and bitter.

But the lack of highlights in these 8 issues is quite a problem too. And they made me feel that there's too much stories untold but wanted to be told, and I doubt if the big storyline Soule seemed to be drawing can be completed in only 25 issues, since we got 8 issues as an INTRO and barely learned anything... Anyway, I'm still happy to see his new suit(which seems to be claimed "armoured"), his billy club upgraded, Blindspot as a not so bad sidekick, more oriental and supernatural elements. I don't have many expectations on #9 to see DD team-up with Spidey again but I really look forward to "The Dark Art" starting from #10 and hope Soule won't let me down.
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Marcus Plato
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted the link to this thread to Soule on Twitter; his response was lacklustre to say the least. I said "Interesting feedback from some hardcore DD fans..."
Soule: "Define interesting"
Me: "I think feedback from diehard fans is interesting, unless of course the fans don't matter..."
Somehow I get the feeling that my last comment is true in his case.
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