Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.


DD Book Club - Out
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #33 - The Secret is Out



Quote:
Foggy and Matt desperately try to figure out what to do now that Matt's secret ID is known to the world.


Due 11/26
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been a while since I participated in a Book Club too but this one might be fun. It's also been a while since I read these issues and I've never thought about them in terms of plot so it might be fun to break down. I'm an issue behind so here's my late plot break down for 32:

Out Part 1: Plot Break Down

1. Agent Driver, some other agent whose name I can't find and Mr. Davis review the evidence that Matt Murder is Daredevil in light of Silke telling them that he heard third hand that Matt is Daredevil. [NOTE: the vast, vast majority of this evidence has been available to the FBI for ages Silke or no Silke. ALSO NOTE: All the "clever" things that Bendis...I mean the FBI agents...point out are just examples of Bendis pretending the usual suspension of disbelief that is applied to superhero comics doesn't exist. It's as clever as having a character say "but Clark Kent looks JUST LIKE Superman without the glasses!"]

2. Mr. Davis tells them not to tell anyone.

3. It's on the front cover of the next days News and Foggy is like OMG.

Everyone should go read the first THREE PAGES of Born Again and compare and contrast.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been several years since I read this issue, but I'm guessing most of us are familiar with how this story goes. Because those of us in the Book Club have been re-reading various stories, I am finding some things strange.

When Matt wakes up aware of the media camped out in front of his home, he thinks to himself, "My life is over." That seems very melodramatic to me, considering the reference to the events in "Playing To The Camera" later this same issue. It turns out that Bendis, along with editor Stuart Moore, were aware of that story, which puzzles me that they chose to run with this story so soon after. Matt even says, "Oh Foggy... How could this have happened?" He's a grown man and a superhero. We all know that this wasn't his first secret identity crisis. I don't know why Bendis and company are treating this as such a life-shattering event. Sure, it sucks, but Foggy and Matt are acting like someone died.

Foggy is acting more adult than Matt here. He actually suggests a strategy of denial. I guess, based on his assessment regarding "Playing To The Camera," that's their only option. However, the Globe did actually print the truth, but, I guess we'll deal more with that later.

The two FBI agents have very similar speech patterns in this issue, and Alex Maleev even draws them similarly. That caused confusion for me this issue.

The two pages devoted to Henry and Sherry at seven in the morning told us precious little about their relationship. They seem to be living together, but don't see each other very often. Does she not trust him? Maybe he cheated on her in the past? They seem to have money problems. If they do, how bad is it? Is she going to leave him? We don't know, but it's suggested. But that was two pages to find out as little as we did. Henry seemed to conclude that he needed money. How much? We don't know. Later on we don't find out how much money the Globe offered for the story.

You'd think someone as intelligent as Black Widow would know better than to show up in costume landing on the rooftop given Matt's media problems. Why wouldn't she show up in plain clothes? It's not good for a story when the characters in it act dumb. Natasha's smarter than that, but Bendis needed Henry's suspicions confirmed.

Foggy was cool enough in that last exchange, but there some awkward dialogue moments. Foggy asks Matt, "So, what are you going to do?" Matt wails back, "Oh Foggy, no!" That reaction didn't make sense to me, or to Foggy. He asks, "What?" "This-- this is my cross to--" Matt replies. It still didn't make sense to me. It would have made more sense if Foggy had asked, "So, what are we going to do about it?" But he didn't. Foggy said "you." Also, Foggy has to realize that the Globe printed the truth, so it seems overly vindictive to talk about suing "everyone in sight until their heads spin off the top of their bodies. We're going to own that dishrag of a paper." He argues that what they printed wasn't newsworthy, but I can honestly see how other people within the universe would disagree, especially because of the events in "Playing To The Camera." Foggy positions the Globe to be the villain here, but I think that's unfair

All of Bendis' bad habits about which I regularly complain are present here: multiple pages used for a scene that could easily fit on one. I absolutely hate it when he has twenty or so speech bubbles crowding a panel saying the same thing, as he does here in the media scrum. It's so annoying, and less bubbles could have accomplished the same thing.

And the cliffhanger, with Foggy recommending that Matt retire the Daredevil identity is weak. First of all, none of us think that Matt would actually do that. Secondly, Foggy's speech leading up to that line is divided up among five panels on that final page. In the third last panel, he actually says, "A big frickin' neon sign. And it says it's time to just put the costume away once and for all." So when we get to the final line two panels later, there is no impact. It's weak.

I have read worse from Bendis and Maleev, but this is pretty annoying. I give this issue 2.5 out of 5.


Last edited by Dimetre on Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
They seem to have money problems. If they do, how bad is it? Is she going to leave him? We don't know, but it's suggested. But that was two pages to find out as little as we did. Henry seemed to conclude that he needed money. How much? We don't know. Later on we don't find out how much money the Globe offered for the story.


Why would have the Globe offered him any money? The "story" he gave them was completely worthless. The story that eventually came out quoted anonymous sources so what was the worth of the agent's input?

Agent: I have a story for you.
Globe: Great. What is it?
Agent: Matt Murdock is Daredevil.
Globe: Wow! That's front page. What evidence do you have?
Agent: None.
Globe: But we can quote you?
Agent: No.
Globe: Okay. Well. Can we quote anyone?
Agent: No.
Globe: So all we can say is that someone says that Matt Murdock is Daredevil?
Agent: I guess so.
Globe: You realize that lots of people said Matt Murdock was Daredevil, like, last month. It was proven to be false.
Agent: Yeah. Anyway, how much are you going to pay me for this rumour that can't be proved?
Globe: Not a lot.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The focus on this story seems to be the art. At least, that's what it seems when you have pages without any dialogue. This issue focuses on the adventures of Henry the FBI Agent. Actually, it may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I appreciate that Bendis takes the time to hint who he is and why he might do what he's doing. It's a monumental moment, so it's important it doesn't come from a complete stranger. We see that he thought the FBI would do something with this and was wrong. We see that he makes stupid bets like this. We see he's having marital issues with his wife (with hints of a possible affair), but the bigger issue is money issues (so stupid bets like that aren't the best idea). After all that, he makes the decision to sell out Daredevil.

The remaining issue is whether Matt should come clean. Foggy's right that his life as a lawyer is over - and that's the best case scenario. I could have watched Foggy and Matt talk for another five pages. Unfortunately, mid-dilemma, the issue just kinda ends. I get the cliffhanger is Foggy telling Matt to retire, but Foggy being a wet blanket is nothing new and there's nothing really in the way that moment is delivered that makes me believe he's going to retire. I'm sure the last time I read this, I read on to the next issue right away. It's only the Book Club that's causing me to stop here.

Three Stars. If it wasn't for the abrupt ending and the massive amount of what feel like wasted pages, I'd give it higher.

Dimetre wrote:

Foggy is acting more adult than Matt here. He actually suggests a strategy of denial. I guess, based on his assessment regarding "Playing To The Camera," that's their only option. However, the Globe did actually print the truth, but, I guess we'll deal more with that later.


Honestly, I thought this issue and next issue (and maybe the one after that) were all one issue in my memory. I certainly thought they explored more about the ethics than they did right there.

Quote:
The two FBI agents have very similar speech patterns in this issue, and Alex Maleev even draws them similarly. That caused confusion for me this issue.


Yeah, I wanted to try and make some profound point about Henry, but I had to read those pages about three times before I felt confident enough to write it. They're far too similar looking. I wish they had different ties or something.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
It's been several years since I read this issue, but I'm guessing most of us are familiar with how this story goes. Because those of us in the Book Club have been re-reading various stories, I am finding some things strange.

When Matt wakes up aware of the media camped out in front of his home, he thinks to himself, "My life is over." That seems very melodramatic to me, considering the reference to the events in "Playing To The Camera" later this same issue. It turns out that Bendis, along with editor Stuart Moore, were aware of that story, which puzzles me that they chose to run with this story so soon after. Matt even says, "Oh Foggy... How could this have happened?" He's a grown man and a superhero. We all know that this wasn't his first secret identity crisis. I don't know why Bendis and company are treating this as such a life-shattering event. Sure, it sucks, but Foggy and Matt are acting like someone died.

Foggy is acting more adult than Matt here. He actually suggests a strategy of denial. I guess, based on his assessment regarding "Playing To The Camera," that's their only option. However, the Globe did actually print the truth, but, I guess we'll deal more with that later.

The two FBI agents have very similar speech patterns in this issue, and Alex Maleev even draws them similarly. That caused confusion for me this issue.

The two pages devoted to Henry and Sherry at seven in the morning told us precious little about their relationship. They seem to be living together, but don't see each other very often. Does she not trust him? Maybe he cheated on her in the past? They seem to have money problems. If they do, how bad is it? Is she going to leave him? We don't know, but it's suggested. But that was two pages to find out as little as we did. Henry seemed to conclude that he needed money. How much? We don't know. Later on we don't find out how much money the Globe offered for the story.

You'd think someone as intelligent as Black Widow would know better than to show up in costume landing on the rooftop given Matt's media problems. Why wouldn't she show up in plain clothes? It's not good for a story when the characters in it act dumb. Natasha's smarter than that, but Bendis needed Henry's suspicions confirmed.

Foggy was cool enough in that last exchange, but there some awkward dialogue moments. Foggy asks Matt, "So, what are you going to do?" Matt wails back, "Oh Foggy, no!" That reaction didn't make sense to me, or to Foggy. He asks, "What?" "This-- this is my cross to--" Matt replies. It still didn't make sense to me. It would have made more sense if Foggy had asked, "So, what are we going to do about it?" But he didn't. Foggy said "you." Also, Foggy has to realize that the Globe printed the truth, so it seems overly vindictive to talk about suing "everyone in sight until their heads spin off the top of their bodies. We're going to own that dishrag of a paper." He argues that what they printed wasn't newsworthy, but I can honestly see how other people within the universe would disagree, especially because of the events in "Playing To The Camera." Foggy positions the Globe to be the villain here, but I think that's unfair

All of Bendis' bad habits about which I regularly complain are present here: multiple pages used for a scene that could easily fit on one. I absolutely hate it when he has twenty or so speech bubbles crowding a panel saying the same thing, as he does here in the media scrum. It's so annoying, and less bubbles could have accomplished the same thing.

And the cliffhanger, with Foggy recommending that Matt retire the Daredevil identity is weak. First of all, none of us think that Matt would actually do that. Secondly, Foggy's speech leading up to that line is divided up among five panels on that final page. In the third last panel, he actually says, "A big frickin' neon sign. And it says it's time to just put the costume away once and for all." So when we get to the final line two panels later, there is no impact. It's weak.

I have read worse from Bendis and Maleev, but this is pretty annoying. I give this issue 2.5 out of 5.


I am going to be honest, I think this the most dull arc of the Bendis era, nothing happens, despite this story having on impact on the DD titles till very recently.

This arc has no cohesive narrative, I am going to spoilers territory, but not by much and who cares at this point.

Nothing important happens this issue and you can streamline this issue with the next and lose nothing.

I feel like there is a real wasted opportunity here, imagine scenes where heroes and a collection of DD's villains react to this news. This story clearly is not supposed to be a typical hero vs. villain story, but you could have made a real character piece by showing the impact from this reveal at all angles. Instead this story meanders.

I give this 2 and a half stars.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #34 - I Didn't Know You Knew



Quote:
His life is in shambles — now Daredevil has to pick up the pieces

In this startling issue, Matt Murdock must come to terms with an anger that threatens to consume him! Can his friends Ben Urich and Peter Parker help? Find out as the Bendis/Maleev era steamrolls on!


It took a lot to track down the original solicit for that one!

Due 12/3
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
His life is in shambles — now Daredevil has to pick up the pieces

In this startling issue, Matt Murdock must come to terms with an anger that threatens to consume him! Can his friends Ben Urich and Peter Parker help? Find out as the Bendis/Maleev era steamrolls on!

This issue is supposed to be startling? This action is supposed to resemble a steamroller? Pfft.

There is no action in this issue. None. Sure Maleev draws pretty images of Daredevil jumping around, but that's just to fool you into thinking there's action, but don't be fooled. This issue consists of two dialogue-weighted scenes. That's it. Two scenes, and those scenes are just talking.

At this point I have to wonder if Bendis has any understanding of what the strengths of this medium are. You can do amazing things with sequential art. Some wonderful stories have been told with this medium. But it's a visual medium. Bendis is writing something better conceived as a radio play. He is not employing this medium anywhere near its potential.

As far as this radio play goes, I suppose the scene at the Bugle would be interesting. Jameson is such a blowhard in this scene. However, I kind of prefer how he was written by Miller during Born Again. In that story he had faith in the Bugle, and in Ben Urich. He was tough, but Miller was probably the first writer of whom I'm aware that showed Jameson's positive traits. In this issue, Jameson is one-dimensional. It's in line with how Stan Lee wrote him, and how J.K. Simmons' portrayed him, but maybe he's even more of a petulant child here.

Also, if Peter doesn't work at the Bugle anymore, than how did he know this meeting was going to happen. I imagine that Jameson called everyone into the boardroom the second he saw the cover of the Globe. It couldn't have been scheduled; it must have been impromptu. Peter couldn't have known, yet he just happens by, stopping in the boardroom at the exact right moment, and then he just leaves. And Jameson doesn't even notice he's in there? How does that work?

The only thing this scene establishes is that Ben and Peter both now know that the other one knows Matt is Daredevil, and Ben is on thin ice at the Bugle. It doesn't take ten pages to give us that information (unless you're Brian Michael Bendis). Any other creative team could make those points in one page -- two if you want to stretch out. But Bendis... so many trees killed.

As for the remainder of the issue, I don't know what to say. Why do we need any of it? The "cliffhanger" of the last issue had Foggy suggesting it might be time to retire Daredevil. Here he says why. It's exhausting reading this monologue separated into dozens of word balloons. Is it impossible for Bendis to be succinct? It doesn't take all of these pages to talk about a "cycle of violence." Is this such a revolutionary concept? Does Bendis think this is so mind-blowing that he needs all of this space to explain it in as much detail and as repetitively as possible?

Now, I realize that most people who enjoy Bendis, and who defend him on this board, have read his stories collected in trade. I have not. However, even if you're reading the "Out" trade, at some point you have to realize that you're turning a lot of pages without anything happening.

I remember really resenting Maleev's artwork in this issue. It looks like he spent a lot of time drawing these pretty pictures of Daredevil jumping around, but they have nothing to do with the conversation. Or he's jumping around, remembering the conversation he had with Foggy. But the focus isn't on the jumping around. It's on the conversation. The jumping around is just there to make it look like there's action, but this issue is just two conversations. It's like Bendis showed Stuart Moore the script, and Moore (for once) made a suggestion. "We need Daredevil jumping around or something." So Bendis retooled it, so he's jumping around remembering the conversation, instead of the conversation just happening. It's cheap, and I would go even further and say it's misrepresentation. Steamroller indeed.

Any other creative team would have used four pages to do what Bendis and Maleev did in this entire issue.

1 out of 5.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the opening conversation at the Bugle. I don't know if I like it nine pages worth of liking it (including one splash page), but I like it - particularly because it leads to a conversation between Peter Parker and Ben Urich (who, for being from the same paper for many years, always seemed worlds apart). The idea that they mutually shared such an important secret but never knew the other knew is quite cool (now maybe Ben should have used his legendary investigatory skills to find out Spider-Man's secret identity too, but I digress).

After that, the issue flips. I like the art style. It's a giant splash panel with lots of little panels. Matt looks engulfed by the world around him and so tiny in his costume. The actual mini-panels are a bit disjointed overall, which is a knock, but the main focus is a conversation between Foggy and Matt. It's not a bad conversation, but a reasonably paced story would have stuck it in issue 33. It's interesting to see him change strategies. It starts with "you had a good run, but it's time to retire." When that doesn't work, he argues that Matt is unstable. Foggy makes the case that Matt is losing it from the death of Karen and that everything (the outbursts of violence and all that) come from that. And, honestly, he kind of is. This is why I've always argued that this run is a terrible place to start reading Daredevil. His actions here are understandable in the same way they could be understood in Born Again, but only when you've seen the entire history of the character.

Overall, decompression on steroids continues. I do like Matt's mental breakdown that's starting here. I like that his default position in adversity is to put on his costume, as terrible an idea as that is overall. But, once again, very little happens. Three and a Half Stars.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:

At this point I have to wonder if Bendis has any understanding of what the strengths of this medium are. You can do amazing things with sequential art. Some wonderful stories have been told with this medium. But it's a visual medium. Bendis is writing something better conceived as a radio play. He is not employing this medium anywhere near its potential.


Yeah, I really feel the same way. I think the true extent of this only hit me a few years ago when Bendis was in the middle of his (terrible) X-Men run. There was an extended scene of Cyclops and Mystique SITTING ON A COUCH talking. Literally sitting side by side discussing whatever issue was going on at the time.

Superhero comics are about enhanced emotion and action. It's okay, and maybe even the goal, to have superhero characters talking about their feelings. But they're supposed to be doing it while trying to contain an exploding sun or while dodging knives throw by Bullseye. Bendis' insane turn towards thinking up an issue (usually a pretty boring one) and then having various characters standing(or sitting) around talking about it will never make sense to me.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out "Plot" Part 3

1. Agent Driver, Henry and Mr. Davis review the evidence that Matt Murdock is Daredevil in light of Silke telling them that he heard third hand that Matt is Daredevil. Mr. Davis tells them not to tell anyone.

2. Henry, who has a distrustful (?) wife, goes to hang out outside Matt’s place. He sees Black Widow up on the rooftop. He think about it and his wife for a bit and then he tells the paper that he’s heard that Matt is Daredevil.

3. Unbelievably the paper prints this unconfirmed anonymous story and it's on the front cover of the next day’s paper.

4. Foggy and Matt both find out and talk about what it means. Foggy suggest Matt quit.

5. Over at the Daily Bugle J.Jonah Jameson is all mad that they didn’t get the scoop (that was in the news just weeks before?). Ben and Peter tell JJ that Matt isn’t Daredevil and Ben is (not?) fired. Ben and Peter talk about Matt.

6. Back at Matt’s place Matt and Foggy are still talking. Foggy says that being Daredevil has created a circle of violence that has resulted in two of Matt’s girlfriend’s being killed. Weirdly neither Foggy nor Matt are like “yeah, but one came back….so it’s only one really?”.

7. Outside a redheaded lady says some cliche things that neighbors always say to reporters. She also says a sort of insulting thing about handicapped people being pleasant.

8. Matt suits up and lurks over the shoulders of the reporters.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
The Overlord
Paradiso


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Quote:
His life is in shambles — now Daredevil has to pick up the pieces

In this startling issue, Matt Murdock must come to terms with an anger that threatens to consume him! Can his friends Ben Urich and Peter Parker help? Find out as the Bendis/Maleev era steamrolls on!

This issue is supposed to be startling? This action is supposed to resemble a steamroller? Pfft.

There is no action in this issue. None. Sure Maleev draws pretty images of Daredevil jumping around, but that's just to fool you into thinking there's action, but don't be fooled. This issue consists of two dialogue-weighted scenes. That's it. Two scenes, and those scenes are just talking.

At this point I have to wonder if Bendis has any understanding of what the strengths of this medium are. You can do amazing things with sequential art. Some wonderful stories have been told with this medium. But it's a visual medium. Bendis is writing something better conceived as a radio play. He is not employing this medium anywhere near its potential.

As far as this radio play goes, I suppose the scene at the Bugle would be interesting. Jameson is such a blowhard in this scene. However, I kind of prefer how he was written by Miller during Born Again. In that story he had faith in the Bugle, and in Ben Urich. He was tough, but Miller was probably the first writer of whom I'm aware that showed Jameson's positive traits. In this issue, Jameson is one-dimensional. It's in line with how Stan Lee wrote him, and how J.K. Simmons' portrayed him, but maybe he's even more of a petulant child here.

Also, if Peter doesn't work at the Bugle anymore, than how did he know this meeting was going to happen. I imagine that Jameson called everyone into the boardroom the second he saw the cover of the Globe. It couldn't have been scheduled; it must have been impromptu. Peter couldn't have known, yet he just happens by, stopping in the boardroom at the exact right moment, and then he just leaves. And Jameson doesn't even notice he's in there? How does that work?

The only thing this scene establishes is that Ben and Peter both now know that the other one knows Matt is Daredevil, and Ben is on thin ice at the Bugle. It doesn't take ten pages to give us that information (unless you're Brian Michael Bendis). Any other creative team could make those points in one page -- two if you want to stretch out. But Bendis... so many trees killed.

As for the remainder of the issue, I don't know what to say. Why do we need any of it? The "cliffhanger" of the last issue had Foggy suggesting it might be time to retire Daredevil. Here he says why. It's exhausting reading this monologue separated into dozens of word balloons. Is it impossible for Bendis to be succinct? It doesn't take all of these pages to talk about a "cycle of violence." Is this such a revolutionary concept? Does Bendis think this is so mind-blowing that he needs all of this space to explain it in as much detail and as repetitively as possible?

Now, I realize that most people who enjoy Bendis, and who defend him on this board, have read his stories collected in trade. I have not. However, even if you're reading the "Out" trade, at some point you have to realize that you're turning a lot of pages without anything happening.

I remember really resenting Maleev's artwork in this issue. It looks like he spent a lot of time drawing these pretty pictures of Daredevil jumping around, but they have nothing to do with the conversation. Or he's jumping around, remembering the conversation he had with Foggy. But the focus isn't on the jumping around. It's on the conversation. The jumping around is just there to make it look like there's action, but this issue is just two conversations. It's like Bendis showed Stuart Moore the script, and Moore (for once) made a suggestion. "We need Daredevil jumping around or something." So Bendis retooled it, so he's jumping around remembering the conversation, instead of the conversation just happening. It's cheap, and I would go even further and say it's misrepresentation. Steamroller indeed.

Any other creative team would have used four pages to do what Bendis and Maleev did in this entire issue.

1 out of 5.


I am pretty sure Jameson was shown to have positive traits in Spider-Man comics before his appearance in Born Again, pride in his son, patriotism and a willingness to stand up to gangsters. I also think even before Born Again, Jameson has shown a willingness to stand up for his employees when it counted.

I do think sometimes people assume that a character only became well written when Miller got a hold of them, sure he strengthen the characters of DD, Bullseye and Kingpin, but they did have good stories before Miller wrote them. I also think Garth Ennis did more strengthen the Punisher then Miller did.

Anyway, I don't think Jameson is out of character here, Jameson never liked costumed vigilantes who operate outside the law, he always had a grudge against them, if he doesn't like Spidey for that reason, why would he be forgiving to DD? Just because Jameson is willing to stand up to gangsters like Kingpin, doesn't mean he will give any costumed vigilante he doesn't like a bye.

Anyway I thought some of the dialogue in this issue was fun, though I thought it was foolish that both Ben and Peter admitted knowing who DD is in front of Jameson. But this was another talking head issue and you could have streamlined this issue with the last one and made for a stronger story. I know this is a talking head story arc, but I there was more interesting character stuff that we could have explored by now.

But I kinda liked the meeting at the Bugle, despite some the logical flaws mentioned in this thread and I felt the conservation between Foggy and Matt was kinda raw, so I kinda enjoyed that. But streamlining those scenes and allowing for other character stuff would have helped.

In the end though, I will give this issue 2 and a half stars, some decent stuff happened, but the slow pace left this issue feeling mediocre. I still stick by my opinion that Out is the most dull of Bendis' DD arcs, despite it being something that will affect DD for the next 15 years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #35 - I'm Not Afraid of You



Quote:
After helping Spidey mop up Mr. Hyde, Matt calls a press conference to clear up the allegations that he is, in fact, DD


The sad thing is, I didn't even find the original solicit for this one, but the entire plot summary comes off as pretty vague as well.

Due 12/10
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like Brian Michael Bendis' writing.

However, I'm not asking him to transform into 1980s Frank Miller. I like writers to be themselves. I just assume that Bendis has read "Born Again". I don't think Matt shed a single tear throughout that entire story, and he lost everything. In "Out" his secret identity is threatened (for at least the third time) and he's weeping like an overflowing bathtub. At least by the end of this issue he makes a decision as to how he'll deal with this, but up until then Matt has been dithering for three issues.

I think Bendis may have been attempting poetry here. How else to explain all the repetition. "I am not afraid of you." "Center and focus." It looks like poetry, but I think it's just Bendis' attempt at appearing poetic. I did like the head turn that steers Matt out of his pity party.

As always, scenes consume way too many panels. The mugging of the woman is a perfect example. Going into the scene, we already know Matt has heard the woman scream. Matt is a superhero, and superheroes stop muggings, so there is really no need to spend the entire next page showing the muggers attacking the woman.

The next page was confusing for me. The mugging is taking place in a dark alleyway, and one of the muggers is running toward a yellow opening. The next panel shows the mugger smashing into the counter inside a diner, and the way he's hitting the counter doesn't make any sense. It doesn't seem like Matt threw him onto the counter. It doesn't even look like the counter is in front of the doorway.

I guess the moment I've always remembered from this issue is when the one guy asks Daredevil what colour his shirt is. Is Matt tempted to hit the guy? Or was he going to feel his shirt? Who knows? It's a very awkward moment.

Wasn't the Moondance diner where Mary-Jane briefly worked in Spider-Man 2?

One thing that drove me crazy throughout Bendis' run was how nobody takes Daredevil's villains seriously. Here we see Mr. Hyde bashing a van against Matt's home, and everyone in the media treats him like a joke. Spider-Man and Daredevil beat him rather easily, and then they both swing away from the press. What did this scene add to the story? Was it just an excuse to put a supervillain in this issue and to have Spidey on the cover? That must be it, because the story could have kept going without this scene.

It takes Matt 26 more days to make a decision as to how to handle this (which, again, has happened to him at least two times before).

This issue didn't annoy me as much as the previous one. However, Bendis' pacing is still awful, and Maleev can't draw action at all. My major complaint is how much of a wuss Matt is being. He's my hero and a character for whom I have the utmost respect, but here he talks about how his world is falling apart, and he's being so indecisive. I think Bendis transformed Matt into a reactive character, and Matt didn't revert to being proactive until Waid started writing in Volume 3.

2 out of 5.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pointed out that Matt's basically having a breakdown. It's weird. Miller did it in basically an issue, but it felt like there were more events leading up to it, so this feels more rushed. That being said, it's worth keeping that in mind in explaining his actions (which are, otherwise, unexplainable).

I do like the "they always say their name" moment. It's very anti-superhero comics Bendis, but it's worth a chuckle. I also like Spider-Man showing up. It gives a sense that Matt isn't in this alone. He has the help of others.

I also do like the cliffhanger here. It's been building for way too long, but it does lead to tension. In retrospect, I know what happens next, but I can feel the suspense hanging in the air.

I'm going Four Stars. I think the second half of the issue strengthens it to help make up for its shortcomings. It's obviously still a thin story (hence the lack of anything I'm writing about it), but this was an improvement, imo.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group