Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.


DAREDEVIL #16 Preview, Reviews and Discussion
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics
View previous topic :: View next topic  

What did you think of DAREDEVIL #16?
5
72%
 72%  [ 8 ]
4
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
3
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
2
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
1
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 11

Author Message
Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom


Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, the good. Matt's philosophical musings were very good here, Sam's injuries bringing his doubts and insecurities to the forefront again. Father Jordan is an interesting sounding board for Matt's doubts and his apparent membership in some ancient militant order adds some uniqueness to his character (although beating up muggers to show this is rather cliched).

In the end, Matt's reaffirmation of his crusade is heartening. (The line of making deals with the devil in lieu of God is rather poignant and inspired).

Now, the bad. Bullseye was wasted here. Last issue's cliffhanger suggested a good confrontation but it was for naught here. As I understood it, the stakes were raised by Matt to being life-or-death, that he upped the contract money till it appealed to someone of Bullseye's caliber. Yet all Bullseye does is kill the Inhuman father, shoot once at DD who then skirts over to yonder rooftop and proceeds to beat him with nary a trouble. Other than providing a focus for Matt to reaffirm his convictions, Bullseye was hardly threatening. Was this also meant in some way to build anticipation for his upcoming solo title? If it was, it didn't do much in that regard.

What I found the most interesting, Sam left the hospital with his mother. Very intriguing, I wonder where this will lead since I've been one of the few whose been enjoying Blindspot's role in Soule's run so far.

A weak Bullseye appearance brings this issue down to 4 stars.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Soule's interview regarding Bullseye through me off. It was described as a cat and mouse thing that I don't think it really was.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunni
Flying Blind


Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved this issue. The priest was hilarious. I’m not sure whether we’re supposed to take Father Jordan and the Ordo Draconum at face value or if he’s not on the level. I’m up for it either way. I also really enjoyed how Soule didn’t shy away from Matt considering ending it all by letting Bullseye shoot him; it’s nice to have a writer who is not afraid to dive into and directly confront the darkness in Matt’s life. Sudžuka’s art was even better than last issue; besides his allies and enemies all tearing at him, I especially liked the last page with Matt in the confessional booth. I also did not mind Bullseye not getting a larger role in this story as it was from Matt’s perspective, and he’s got his own mini starting up in a few days.

Mike Murdock wrote:
It's a solid issue throughout. It ended strong (I couldn't help but smiling on the last page). It's not flawless. I get the impression it's trying to be a definitive statement for Daredevil, but it falls short of that.


I don’t know about this issue being a definitive statement, but I don’t think it’s a bad thing for Matt to reassure himself why he does what he does in story nor is it bad for Soule make a statement for the reader about who he is. It’s a good summary of the character that he fights so other people can have happiness since that’s not true for all protagonists.

Dimetre wrote:
Thayrone Ibsen wrote:
Oh, and Matts reflections in this issue? Aside from being sooo forced, there is nothing new to them. Nothing. Only exaggeration (once again Soule ups and ups Matts christianity, like he was an ever present kid going to church and things like that). Hello: when Miller HINTED at Matts religious beliefs, he never said things like "There was a time I was like him, believing that my way is Gods way and blahblahblah". There is not subtlety in Soules take on the character. Also, no novelty.

The church has long been a presence in Daredevil's world, and his faith has been something that has distiguished Matt from the more secular Marvel heroes for decades. I think it gives him depth and a stronger moral fibre. But, he's never been a loud Christian, and I respect that about him. I don't think he goes to Church every Sunday. I think Kevin Smith is the only writer, aside from the writers of the Netflix series, that suggested that. I think he leans on his faith in times of crisis. It's easy to see how someone who would lead this lifestyle would see their problems as to big for them to handle, and would take comfort in something bigger than themselves.


As someone who was introduced to the character from the Netflix show, I see Matt as devout. He has multiple conversations with his priest seeking guidance where he demonstrates his belief, he asks others about going to Mass, and he prays and uses the Sign of the Cross. As for why the showrunners chose to go that route, not only does it lend itself to some fantastic visuals, but it’s a clear differentiator for the character (hey audience here’s why he’s not broke and blind Batman) that neatly explains how and why he operates (it’s God’s will that he has these powers and uses them, but Matt doesn’t kill people because it’s not his decision to make). Having a larger moral framework around Matt’s decisions also deftly avoids some of the convoluted ethical quandaries that trips up some other superhero media (such as Green Arrow’s flimsy kill/do not kill reasoning on Arrow). Overall, playing up Daredevil's faith on the show makes him a more distinct and thus marketable brand since so many superheroes’ religion is either outright secular or vaguely defined.

Now since this is the comics and not the show, Matt’s faith is going to wax and wane depending on the writer. On one hand, Weeks had Matt fall asleep reading the Bible, and on the other, I can’t remember Waid mentioning anything about religion at all. Obviously, Soule sees him as a man of faith.

Thayrone Ibsen wrote:
Oh, and what about Matt wanting a "perfect world"? Geez. That coming from a guy who basically said, a few issues ago, that he enjoyed the endless tides of violence that is his life? Really, is this a good DD writing?


IMHO yes because he wants to happen and what will actually happen are not the same thing, which is why Matt can lament that it’s not a perfect world, and at the same time, thoroughly enjoy violently beating up people. If it was, Matt would have to find another outlet.

Darkdevil wrote:
What I found the most interesting, Sam left the hospital with his mother. Very intriguing, I wonder where this will lead since I've been one of the few whose been enjoying Blindspot's role in Soule's run so far.


I normally hate sidekicks, but I also like Sam (and will continue to do so as long as Matt doesn’t go anywhere), and it’s because Soule has avoided many of the usual sidekick clichés with him. Sam isn’t a child, he’s not a quip machine, he’s not shown to be superior to Matt, and he has a serious temperament like his mentor.

I’m wondering if we will see his little sister Hannah again as well and if Sam’s going to be put in a position where he has to choose between his mom the ex-henchwoman and Matt. She’s not going to be happy about Daredevil getting Blindspot blinded in her opinion, so I can’t imagine she’d want him giving him the serum either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sciurid
Flying Blind


Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunni wrote:
I loved this issue. The priest was hilarious. I’m not sure whether we’re supposed to take Father Jordan and the Ordo Draconum at face value or if he’s not on the level. I’m up for it either way. I also really enjoyed how Soule didn’t shy away from Matt considering ending it all by letting Bullseye shoot him; it’s nice to have a writer who is not afraid to dive into and directly confront the darkness in Matt’s life. Sudžuka’s art was even better than last issue; besides his allies and enemies all tearing at him, I especially liked the last page with Matt in the confessional booth.


The priest is an excellent foil for Matt at the moment, if for no other reason than he seems not to be clinically depressed. I love how Sudzuka drew him sort of punching at the air when the muggers were running away and he was yelling he'd see them in church.

On a tangent, I continually wonder why confession is usually drawn with the penitent sitting rather than kneeling, if they're going to insist on using the old-school booth imagery. Perhaps it's just easier to frame.

On another tangent, I'm pretty sure the Latin "Ordo Draconum" is wrong. Draconum would be accusative, and it should be... dative or genitive? Latin was a long time ago, and I only had one semester. I suspect it should be "draconis."


Sunni wrote:

As someone who was introduced to the character from the Netflix show, I see Matt as devout. He has multiple conversations with his priest seeking guidance where he demonstrates his belief, he asks others about going to Mass, and he prays and uses the Sign of the Cross. As for why the showrunners chose to go that route, not only does it lend itself to some fantastic visuals, but it’s a clear differentiator for the character (hey audience here’s why he’s not broke and blind Batman) that neatly explains how and why he operates (it’s God’s will that he has these powers and uses them, but Matt doesn’t kill people because it’s not his decision to make). Having a larger moral framework around Matt’s decisions also deftly avoids some of the convoluted ethical quandaries that trips up some other superhero media (such as Green Arrow’s flimsy kill/do not kill reasoning on Arrow). Overall, playing up Daredevil's faith on the show makes him a more distinct and thus marketable brand since so many superheroes’ religion is either outright secular or vaguely defined.

Now since this is the comics and not the show, Matt’s faith is going to wax and wane depending on the writer. On one hand, Weeks had Matt fall asleep reading the Bible, and on the other, I can’t remember Waid mentioning anything about religion at all. Obviously, Soule sees him as a man of faith.


I came to the comics (all superhero comics, actually; had only read "serious" stuff like Maus, Sandman, etc. prior) through the show, too. I don't think Matt can be described as devout, at least not throughout most of the first season. He might be there in S2, though whether he's actually practicing might be another topic.

In the books, that his religion has actually had a meaningful impact on his life alone makes him unique from other superheroes. It is easy to interpret a lot of what he does, especially with certain writers, through a Catholic lens. Perhaps not unexpectedly, the writers with Catholic backgrounds (Miller, Nocenti, Smith, now Soule) seem to weave a Catholic sensibility through his actions moreso than the other writers (Bendis et. al responsible for his decade long nervous breakdown, also the writers who wrote that dark period that was 90's comics).

Sunni wrote:

IMHO yes because he wants to happen and what will actually happen are not the same thing, which is why Matt can lament that it’s not a perfect world, and at the same time, thoroughly enjoy violently beating up people. If it was, Matt would have to find another outlet.


The bit about making the world a better place and seeing some positive outcome to the fighting reminded me a little of some Nocenti. Someone randomly gave me 278 and 281, and Unlmiited stops at 276, I think, so I don't have the whole story, but that bit just reminded me of when Mephisto was dragging Matt through Hell or wherever it was supposed to be.


Sunni wrote:

Darkdevil wrote:
What I found the most interesting, Sam left the hospital with his mother. Very intriguing, I wonder where this will lead since I've been one of the few whose been enjoying Blindspot's role in Soule's run so far.


I normally hate sidekicks, but I also like Sam (and will continue to do so as long as Matt doesn’t go anywhere), and it’s because Soule has avoided many of the usual sidekick clichés with him. Sam isn’t a child, he’s not a quip machine, he’s not shown to be superior to Matt, and he has a serious temperament like his mentor.

I’m wondering if we will see his little sister Hannah again as well and if Sam’s going to be put in a position where he has to choose between his mom the ex-henchwoman and Matt. She’s not going to be happy about Daredevil getting Blindspot blinded in her opinion, so I can’t imagine she’d want him giving him the serum either.


Sam seems to have as much self-preservation instinct as Matt does. I just reread all of Soule's run, and Sam gets progressively more banged up. Not sure where he's going with it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, "Draco Draconis" is third declination. Draconum is genitive plural. Accusative plural would be "Dracones". So it's correct. It means "Order of the Dragons".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sciurid
Flying Blind


Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Nah, "Draco Draconis" is third declination. Draconum is genitive plural. Accusative plural would be "Dracones". So it's correct. It means "Order of the Dragons".


I stand corrected. Thanks. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunni
Flying Blind


Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciurid wrote:
Sam seems to have as much self-preservation instinct as Matt does. I just reread all of Soule's run, and Sam gets progressively more banged up. Not sure where he's going with it.

Maybe that Sam needs Matt even after everything that’s happened? Unless they have a change of heart due to his injury, Sam’s mom and sister aren’t good people as shown so far. His mom wanted Sam to move up in Tenfinger’s church like she did, which would have required murdering Billy Li and Matt as Tenfingers ordered him to, and Hannah has no problem with Sam working long hours to support them while she spends her time clubbing and eating his food.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rand
Flying Blind


Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHORT VERSION

Worst-case interpretation of this issue: The plot doesn't make sense. End of story.

Best-case interpretation of this issue: Let's all delude ourselves into believing that the plot does make sense. Even if we succeed -- SPOILER! (for a 23-year-old comic) -- we're talking about a plot that rips off the last big scene of MWF.

LONG VERSION

Page 2: We're explicitly told that Bullseye is 500 yards -- i.e., more than four football fields -- away.

Pages 3-4: Bullseye fires, and we get an overhead view of just how incredibly long a shot that really is.

Page 8: The sniper round looks like it's about four meters away from Matt in panel 2, then about one meter away in panel 3. Matt's hand is still at waist height in panel 2, then about chest height in panel 3.

(We may not be able to "trust" the art, but that's what the art is showing us.)

Page 14: The sniper round -- inexplicably -- looks like it's somehow back to being about four meters away. Matt's hand is still hovering around chest height.

(Again, we may not be able to "trust" the art, but that's what it's showing us.)

Page 16: Matt deflects the round. This is simply not believable.

At least in Man Without Fear, Matt was deflecting small-arms fire. I mean, that didn't make all that much sense either, but at least it was more believable. (Not to mention that MWF was never intended to be a canonical story.)

Page 16 (continued): Matt casts off his baton towards Bullseye.

[It's worth pausing here to remind ourselves that Matt's powers include neither superhuman strength nor superhuman speed; he's just an athletic guy, albeit one with extensive training.]

Page 17: Matt has -- evidently -- baton-swung his away across more than four football fields to dropkick Bullseye in the face. Bullseye is so caught off-guard by this that he hasn't even had time to set his rifle down in order to defend himself!

(Let's set aside the fact that we have no idea what Matt was baton-swinging from; focus on the speed.)

Page 18: Bullseye has been beaten seemingly unconscious.

Page 19: Matt apparently took some serum off of Bullseye after beating him half to death. Are we meant to believe that Bullseye carries a vial around with him just for fun? Or are we instead meant to believe that Matt patiently waited for Bullseye to regain consciousness, in order to -- I don't know -- threaten to beat him unconscious again unless he told Matt where to obtain said vial? (Neither option makes much sense.)

POST-SCRIPT

This is not intended as a full review of #16. There were several things I did like about this issue, as well as several more that I didn't; I've ignored all of that to focus on the main plot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunni
Flying Blind


Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rand wrote:
Page 16: Matt deflects the round. This is simply not believable.

Daredevil thinks, “And it’s then that I realize my hand was moving before Bullseye even pulled the trigger,” so it’s muscle memory plus his twitch reflexes. Matt knows that Bullseye wants to headshot him, so he’s already anticipating what is going to happen before it does. IMHO the sequence of events is not Bullseye gets ready to shoot, Bullseye fires his sniper rifle, Matt reacts, and Matt deflects the round. It’s Matt expects the shot, Bullseye gets ready to shoot, Matt reacts, Bullseye fires his sniper rifle, and Matt deflects the round.

Rand wrote:
Page 17: Matt has -- evidently -- baton-swung his away across more than four football fields to dropkick Bullseye in the face. Bullseye is so caught off-guard by this that he hasn't even had time to set his rifle down in order to defend himself!

Bullseye was surprised long enough for Matt to get over there, however long that was, which I agree couldn’t have been too long considering Bullseye’s superb skills.

I also agree that Matt is just an athletic guy without superstrength or superspeed, so how does Matt do extraordinary things like this? Personally, I think he has to have a superhuman nervous system as a secondary byproduct of his accident in order for him to process all the information his supersenses take in, which Waid supported in his Latveria story with the whole restarting his eyes/creating a new sense development. It wasn’t a big deal to Matt to go over there; his internal monologue doesn’t even talk about closing the 500 yard gap.

Rand wrote:
Page 19: Matt apparently took some serum off of Bullseye after beating him half to death. Are we meant to believe that Bullseye carries a vial around with him just for fun? Or are we instead meant to believe that Matt patiently waited for Bullseye to regain consciousness, in order to -- I don't know -- threaten to beat him unconscious again unless he told Matt where to obtain said vial? (Neither option makes much sense.)

I like Ikari, yet I had serious problems with his origin (even within a fictional comic book world, I have a hard time believing they’d be able to recreate the exact radioactive chemicals and environmental conditions for Matt’s accident; similarly, sure, exactly, no IMHO), but I put that on Waid rather than Soule, so given the previous Ikari story, yes, I buy either Bullseye is arrogant enough to have a clear advantage on him that he’d choose not to use anyway or Matt would provide sufficient pain threshold incentive for Bullseye to cough up his last vial stash.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The comics All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group