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DD Book Club - The King of Hell's Kitchen
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
The big impact is the surprise at the end. Not knowing what happened, I expect it would be a surprise. Knowing the future, I was just waiting for it. Last issue, I kept trying to see if I was remembering things correctly. It didn't actually make sense to be Milla since Ben referred to her in the third person on several occasions during the story. But, no, I remembered it correctly.

I'm looking over issue #56 again, and it's weird that Ben introduces himself by his full name, since she's the one who contacted him, but at least he points out how weird that is.

It's weird that he refers to Matt by his first and last name, when he knows he's sitting across from his significant other.

But the weirdest thing, as Mike Murdock said, is this:
Quote:
See, Matt's new girlfriend, Milla Donovan, actually works at the Hell's Kitchen Housing Commission. She knew where the money should go... and who needed it the most... and which buildings could be saved.

This makes me wonder how Bendis writes. Did he sit down and start writing Urich's monologue without even considering to whom he's talking? Did editor Kelly Lamy not even ask him? Between this and the spelling mistakes, I honestly don't think anyone at Marvel checks his work. Why have an editor then?

The other amazing thing is that at the end of #57 Milla tells Ben, "I don't care about any of this." Yet she has allowed him to yammer on for two issues. She's the one who called him here to this diner, yet she has allowed him to go on and on like this before even bringing up what she's asking of him. Milla isn't some shrinking violet. She's got guts, so it doesn't make sense why she would allow Ben to waste her time.

It's clear that Bendis has just used this meeting between Ben and Milla as a device to allow the events of the past year to be recapped, and if that's all that's required, then purpose served. But it's pretty shoddy work if none of it hangs together from a logical standpoint. At the very least Lamy should have pointed out the problems I just did and gotten him to fix them, unless no one thought anyone would go back and check to see if anything made any sense. But we did, and how much respect for us does that show? How much of a standard is Bendis demonstrating for his own work?

Jeez, I really don't understand why Bendis' Daredevil run is still so highly revered. If you don't believe me, here's a link to a video by a YouTuber for whom I have a lot of respect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWOcKQHSjzU[/quote]
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macjr33
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Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall, I think this is a solid continuation of the story.

First off, I do agree the cover is awesome. I am not someone that has to have a cover that showcases what the story will be, I just want to see something cool and Maleev delivers here (as he does with quite a few of them).

I am a huge fan of Ben Urich and like the dialogue with the "mystery person" he is speaking with.

The fight scene with the Yakuza was great, liked that it was fought in the rain and at night, Maleev's style works well with that.

The reveal that the "mystery person" was Milla was not so much surprising as that they got married. I think the think the expressions I had when reading this was similar to Ben's.

Overall, I would give this 4 stars.

Dimetre wrote:

The other amazing thing is that at the end of #57 Milla tells Ben, "I don't care about any of this." Yet she has allowed him to yammer on for two issues. She's the one who called him here to this diner, yet she has allowed him to go on and on like this before even bringing up what she's asking of him. Milla isn't some shrinking violet. She's got guts, so it doesn't make sense why she would allow Ben to waste her time.

It's clear that Bendis has just used this meeting between Ben and Milla as a device to allow the events of the past year to be recapped, and if that's all that's required, then purpose served. But it's pretty shoddy work if none of it hangs together from a logical standpoint. At the very least Lamy should have pointed out the problems I just did and gotten him to fix them, unless no one thought anyone would go back and check to see if anything made any sense. But we did, and how much respect for us does that show? How much of a standard is Bendis demonstrating for his own work?

Jeez, I really don't understand why Bendis' Daredevil run is still so highly revered. If you don't believe me, here's a link to a video by a YouTuber for whom I have a lot of respect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWOcKQHSjzU


Milla does say that she didn't know what was going on so I think that may explain why she listened to Urich's story. Also in fairness to Bendis, I think that Milla's meeting with Ben goes beyond just being a plot device as it starts Milla learning more about Matt and his past which will happen over the next several issues. She comes to realize there is a lot more to him than she ever realized.

I've been pretty open to the fact that Bendis' run on Daredevil is my favorite run in all of DD and in comics (though my favorite single story arc is Born Again). I am not going to say that Bendis is perfect or that I have read a lot of his stuff. Outside of his DD, I've read all his Jessica Jones stuff and a bits and pieces of the New Avengers. I think the JJ work is great, but wasn't feeling the New Avengers stuff. I take it from people I trust at my LCS that he was awful on Guardians among other series. However, given where DD had been for most of the 90's coupled with what I thought was a subpar story by Kevin Smith in Guardian Devil, Bendis (along with Maleev's art) was able to bring back the character to the dark gritty noir world that serves him best.

Also, he does successfully what I have been most critical of Soule for and that is build the supporting cast around Matt in an effective way, both with his rouges and his friends. I think he nails the relationship between Matt and Fisk and we also get Bullseye, the Owl, Typhoid Mary, Gladiator among others. I feel that he also nails the relationship not just between Matt and Foggy, but also Matt's relationship with Natasha and Ben. We also get Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Peter Parker. In my opinion he even uses Elektra effectively which other writers have struggled to do. I may be in the minority; however, I do like Milla as a character.

All that to say that while it isn't perfect, aside from Born Again and perhaps DD: Yellow if I am grabbing a DD story to reread it's most likely by Bendis (followed probably by Waid or Brubaker).
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #58 - The King of Hell's Kitchen Part 3



Quote:
Matt Murdock is missing after his battle with 100 armed men, and only Ben Urich can find him. Is DD even alive?


Due 7/15
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue starts off with the never ending wall of dialogue that has marked it so far. However, in the middle is one of the more interesting panels - a flashback of Matt mourning the death of his father. I usually think of this panel in the debate of how old Matt was when his father died. This might possibly be far and away the youngest he's ever been drawn. Blind people, as I understand it, don't actually touch their loved ones' faces to see what they're like, but the idea that his father would be unrecognizable here is still a powerful one. Overall, it's a very good panel.

Anyway, Matt had told Milla to go to Ben, but Ben doesn't know anything so he goes to Foggy. Foggy is very cynical about the whole thing. Generally, unsupportive Foggy is my least favorite Foggy. But he does say something that I think has been hinted before that the way Matt's acting isn't really about his identity being outed, it's about him still not recovering from Karen Page's death. You also might get some sense of that with how Milla talked about her. Elektra was said in a matter of fact manner, while Karen Page was described much more off-handedly. I've said before that I don't like the way Bendis writes how Matt acts, but it's far more understandable if you realize that he's having a breadown in the story.

This story introduces us to Night Nurse (I believe this version is Linda Carter). It's a nifty little idea, although I don't know if it's necessarily needed. That being said, it feels that we cut out a lot of the investigation part of a mystery to go too close to the conclusion.

Three and a Half Stars. I fine with a superheroic free issue, but this didn't have a lot happen. It's a lot of static talking building to the ending. I did think the ending was a nice character moment so I'm curious where it goes, but the pacing isn't great.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually found this issue pretty cool. It's mostly centred around Ben Urich, and I've always enjoyed "man out in the dark city" movies like After Hours and Eyes Wide Shut. That tone was in full effect during the scene with the Night Nurse, but the rat-a-tat rhythm of Ben's conversations added to it nicely.

There are certain things that bother me. Milla always seemed like a highly-intelligent woman, so you would have thought she would have taken Matt's violent life into account before marrying him, especially after almost being killed by Typhoid. Perhaps I'm prejudiced -- people who get married too quickly are a pet peeve of mine. The sympathy I hold towards Milla for her husband's disappearance is limited, partly because she knew about his dangerous life and partly because she chose to marry him anyway. That's what I think. Still, it's not a bad scene.

Another thing that somewhat bothered me was the idea of Matt feeling his father's face after he was shot in the head. That is very grisly imagery, and I don't think it added anything of value to this issue or Matt's backstory. A young boy losing a parent to murder is already horrific enough. I don't think it needs to be made more horrific by having Matt identify the face of his dead father who had his head blown open by a bullet. That's pretty sadistic.

Still, I thought the Milla and Ben scene worked. It would have been made better without Alex Maleev's repeated use of panels, but why should I expect better at this point?

I think Agent Driver may be the character from Brian Michael Bendis' Daredevil run that I loathe the most, mostly because of his belittling of our hero's most troublesome adversaries. Driver is unlikable for a different reason this time out. In this issue, he can't get through interrogating Sano Orii without losing his temper. Sano's denials are preposterous, but is Driver new at this? Also, I don't think we get very much out of this scene. Sano may be pressing charges against Matt, but I don't think that should be much cause for worry. Sano himself is being charged with carrying a concealed weapon. Nothing earth-shattering in this scene, and it's weighed down by yet more panel repetition from Maleev. Honestly, this four-page scene hurts the issue, which would have been much stronger if Ben Urich were central throughout its entirety.

The scene at Nelson and Murdock is pretty good. I continued to enjoy the banter between Ben and Foggy, but I don't understand why the mention of Karen's death caused Ben to be taken aback. Did Bendis think the idea of Matt suffering a nervous breakdown was such a revelation? Those of us who read "Guardian Devil" and onward are aware of how shaken Matt was by Karen's death. David Mack showed Matt grieving over Karen in "Parts of a Hole," even if he had Matt enter into a romance with Maya Lopez shortly afterward. I don't remember Bendis or Bob Gale mentioning Karen at all in "Wake Up" or "Playing to the Camera" respectively. But, I do think that Kevin Smith and Mack displayed Matt's grief over Karen effectively.

Grief is a funny thing though. Some people work through their grief over a loved one quickly. Some take years. Some never work through it. I think of working through grief as learning to carry on with your life while living with the loss of your loved one. As a long-time Daredevil fan, I don't think Matt has ever properly worked through his grief over Karen. He had a lot of unsettled trust issues with her, and I don't think they were ever truly settled. I have long stated that I would greatly enjoy an arc where Matt deals with his grief over Karen once and for all. In my opinion Daredevil: Yellow did an unsatisfactory job of that, since it dwelt on only the positive aspects of the Matt/Karen relationship.

So, while I feel Matt never properly worked through his grief over Karen, is it possible he had a "nervous breakdown"? Well, I looked up the term on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_breakdown) and it's not recognized as an official clinical term. A survey of laypersons suggests that it is "a specific acute time-limited reactive disorder, involving symptoms such as anxiety or depression, usually precipitated by external stressors." Wikipedia goes on to say that the "breakdown" terminology comes into play when the effects of the inciting event become so acute as to "prevent them from performing activities of daily living or, less strictly, only when those demands prevent them from performing their familial or occupational duties." Does this apply to Matt following Karen's death? I think his depression following her death was understandable, but did it hinder is ability to practise law or be Daredevil? I don't recall anything like that. He made some questionable decisions in my opinion, like unmasking in front of a bunch of criminals and declaring himself the new Kingpin, but I'm not sure whether to attribute that to a "nervous breakdown" or questionable writing by Brian Michael Bendis.

Anyway, even though Ben Urich found the Night Nurse's clinic ridiculously easily, I loved the scene. Whoever the model Maleev used to play the Night Nurse gave him great expressions with which to work. She's awesome. She is a wonderful femme fatale, and it really felt like Urich was venturing into a rabbit hole taking him to places unknown.

The cliffhanger focuses again on the idea of the "nervous breakdown." I really don't think it's an idea that's either strong enough or revelatory enough to act as a proper enough cliffhanger. Sure, deal with it as a theme or undercurrent to a story, but as a cliffhanger? I don't even think it's provocative enough to lead into a commercial break.

Still, this issue's strengths are considerable -- namely tone and dialogue. It's four different conversations. The one between Driver and Sano doesn't deserve to be in this issue, but the other three that involve Ben are excellent. Maleev shouldn't copy and paste as much as he does, but he won't listen to me. Bendis and Maleev masterfully escalated the noir tone throughout this issue, and I think it deserves a 4 out of 5.
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macjr33
Flying Blind


Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So before I get to my actual thoughts on the issue, I have more of a general question. Given that I only got back in comic books about 3 years ago and in doing so was new to Daredevil everything I read outside of Soule's current run was in trades. My question is for those that read Bendis real time did they feel different about it because you had to wait a month for the next issue. I ask because if my liking of Bendis' run is skewed by the fact that I was able to read it all at once.

With that said, on to the issue at hand. As others have noted, this isn't an action heavy issue and I'm cool with that as I like the narrative that is being built.

I really like the flashback about Jack's murder and I like the idea of Matt touching his face, whether or not that is actually something that those who are blind actually do. This was clearly an inspiration for the Netflix series and I like how it portrayed as something Jack did to try and calm Matt. And frankly, I love the dynamic between Matt and Jack so I always happy to see that show up.

As I said before I like Ben and his interactions with Foggy and the Night Nurse are great. I think the Night Nurse is an awesome addition and continues to further flesh out the "underworld" of the Marvel Universe.

I like that the idea is that Matt is having a nervous breakdown over the death of Karen and that is what is contributing to his odd decision making.

I continue to enjoy Maleev's art because even though he may copy and paste at times how he draws characters like the Night Nurse is just awesome.

Overall, I would give this a solid 4 stars.

Mike Murdock wrote:

I've said before that I don't like the way Bendis writes how Matt acts, but it's far more understandable if you realize that he's having a breadown in the story.


I think part of it is that we are not supposed to like the way Matt is acting, I think Brubaker continued that as well.

Dimetre wrote:
There are certain things that bother me. Milla always seemed like a highly-intelligent woman, so you would have thought she would have taken Matt's violent life into account before marrying him, especially after almost being killed by Typhoid. Perhaps I'm prejudiced -- people who get married too quickly are a pet peeve of mine. The sympathy I hold towards Milla for her husband's disappearance is limited, partly because she knew about his dangerous life and partly because she chose to marry him anyway. That's what I think. Still, it's not a bad scene.


Just because someone is intelligent does not mean that they necessarily make good decisions when it comes to relationships. Love makes people do strange things which to the outside observer would seem completely irrational. Sometimes the relationship works, sometimes it doesn't.

Dimetre wrote:
The scene at Nelson and Murdock is pretty good. I continued to enjoy the banter between Ben and Foggy, but I don't understand why the mention of Karen's death caused Ben to be taken aback. Did Bendis think the idea of Matt suffering a nervous breakdown was such a revelation? Those of us who read "Guardian Devil" and onward are aware of how shaken Matt was by Karen's death. David Mack showed Matt grieving over Karen in "Parts of a Hole," even if he had Matt enter into a romance with Maya Lopez shortly afterward. I don't remember Bendis or Bob Gale mentioning Karen at all in "Wake Up" or "Playing to the Camera" respectively. But, I do think that Kevin Smith and Mack displayed Matt's grief over Karen effectively.

Grief is a funny thing though. Some people work through their grief over a loved one quickly. Some take years. Some never work through it. I think of working through grief as learning to carry on with your life while living with the loss of your loved one. As a long-time Daredevil fan, I don't think Matt has ever properly worked through his grief over Karen. He had a lot of unsettled trust issues with her, and I don't think they were ever truly settled. I have long stated that I would greatly enjoy an arc where Matt deals with his grief over Karen once and for all. In my opinion Daredevil: Yellow did an unsatisfactory job of that, since it dwelt on only the positive aspects of the Matt/Karen relationship.


Interesting take for sure, and I certainly agree that Matt has never truly worked through Karen's grief and, frankly, I am not sure he ever should. To your point grief is a funny thing and sometimes you feel like you've moved past it and then there is something that reminds of that person and the emotions come rushing back even years later. Matt has always struck me as a very emotional person in that regard.

Where I have a different interpretation is that Matt had unsettled trust issues with Karen. My perspective was that during Born Again when Karen revealed to Matt what she had done that Matt forgave her instantly and it was almost Christ-like (which would certainly fit with the Catholic themes of that story). Now I have not read everything that came between Born Again and Guardian Devil; however, I don't recall Karen ever doing anything that would have gave Matt new reasons to not trust her. If anything, it would be argued that Karen should have trust issues with Matt given that he cheated on her with Typhoid Mary and came close to getting back together with Elektra. Again there may be something I missed as I have not read anything.

Also, I see your point with DD: Yellow; however, I thought it was amazing and a good way for Matt to work through his grief, if only briefly. People have the natural tendency to romanticize the past and forgot all the dark parts and this certainly fit that.

Dimetre wrote:
So, while I feel Matt never properly worked through his grief over Karen, is it possible he had a "nervous breakdown"? Well, I looked up the term on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_breakdown) and it's not recognized as an official clinical term. A survey of laypersons suggests that it is "a specific acute time-limited reactive disorder, involving symptoms such as anxiety or depression, usually precipitated by external stressors." Wikipedia goes on to say that the "breakdown" terminology comes into play when the effects of the inciting event become so acute as to "prevent them from performing activities of daily living or, less strictly, only when those demands prevent them from performing their familial or occupational duties." Does this apply to Matt following Karen's death? I think his depression following her death was understandable, but did it hinder is ability to practise law or be Daredevil? I don't recall anything like that. He made some questionable decisions in my opinion, like unmasking in front of a bunch of criminals and declaring himself the new Kingpin, but I'm not sure whether to attribute that to a "nervous breakdown" or questionable writing by Brian Michael Bendis.


I think we could argue the semantics; however, I feel that Bendis effectively conveyed traits in Matt that have been displayed before i.e. him being depressed, self-destructive, guilt ridden and paranoid, which has now contributed to where he is currently.

Dimetre wrote:
Anyway, even though Ben Urich found the Night Nurse's clinic ridiculously easily, I loved the scene. Whoever the model Maleev used to play the Night Nurse gave him great expressions with which to work. She's awesome. She is a wonderful femme fatale, and it really felt like Urich was venturing into a rabbit hole taking him to places unknown.


Agreed Night Nurse is awesome.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't reading the story when it came out either, but I read it in trade originally where I could binge it all. Reading it with a week gap between issues makes things a bit slower and it kind of makes me wonder how it would have felt if there was a month gap. That being said, it was sometimes double shipped, so I would have to see how frequently it was coming out at this point.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #59 - The King of Hell's Kitchen Part 4



Quote:
"THE KING OF HELL's KITCHEN" pt. 4 of 5? Faced with the growing threat of the Yakuza, Matt Murdock is on the comeback trail as he teams up with some of NYC's toughest heroes to take the fight back!


Due 7/22
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me begin by taking issue with some things on the recap page. First of all, Karen Page shouldn't be referred to as Matt's "one true great love." That is easily debatable. There are those on this site who think his greatest love is Karen, just as there are those who think his greatest love is Elektra (like I do), as there are those who think his greatest love is the Black Widow. There was no reason to put such a declarative statement out there.

Secondly, he bottom of the recap page labels this issue as Part 3. Isn't this Part 4 of "The King of Hell's Kitchen"? Couldn't Quesada or Lamy at least use the fingers on one of their hands to keep proper count of the issues used in this arc by this point?

The cover is, again, a generic image of Daredevil that I suspect Maleev had lying around.

This issue, on the whole, suffers from tremendous Bendis decompression syndrome. The first scene with Driver and Del Toro is a prime example. Nothing happens in the scene until the scene's third page. Until that point, it's just the two of them arguing about whether Matt Murdock is good or bad. Driver, who has always annoyed me, keeps repeating the phrase, "Let me tell you something..." like a jerk. Nothing happens until they're ambushed by a jeep. At least I don't have to put up with Driver anymore.

But the confusing thing about that scene for me is that Del Toro was firing on the jeep, but it was Driver's car that exploded to the point that it flew up in the sky. It even looked like Del Toro was aiming at the jeep's gas tank. But the car explodes. Not the jeep. Also, even though Del Toro was right next to the car when it exploded, she doesn't appear to be hurt. Then we cut away from the scene, even though it seems like the shooters in the jeep are still a threat, and could easily still kill her.

I thought the scene where Urich confronts Matt with the notion that he's having a nervous breakdown over Karen was fine. I can get behind everything Ben is saying, even if I'd rather he not use the terminology "nervous breakdown." I'd also prefer if Maleev not copy and paste panels as often as he does. What took me out of the scene was Foggy. He's not a dumb guy, but it never occurred to him that Matt may have some unresolved issues from Karen's murder?

This is something that kind of drives me crazy about Bendis' Daredevil run. He presents these supposedly revolutionary concepts like "a cycle of violence," and now "a nervous breakdown," as if they're these incredibly deep insights, when they're perfectly logical things that you'd think would occur to anyone reading the story. And Bendis spills so much ink delving into them, to the point where we the readers are being told about it rather than shown it. Brian, your insights aren't as deep as you think they are.

We get a loving scene between Matt and Milla. They seem like a nice couple. I find it weird that Milla calls Foggy, instead of just enjoying her husband being awake. Perhaps Foggy asked to speak to Matt as soon as he woke up, but whatever. I thought the joke about red and yellow was spaced out to much, but I appreciated the easy banter between Matt and Foggy, as well as the tenderness between Matt and Milla.

The weakest scene of the issue to me was the one at Luke and Jessica's. First off, both of these people should be familiar enough with the sight of Daredevil that they shouldn't freak out. I didn't buy it for one second. It's only made worse by Bendis' decompression, because instead of one panel being devoted to Jessica and Luke's freak out, we get a page and a half.

Secondly, I've already typed about my problems with the scene three issues ago with Luke/Peter/Reed/Stephen. I'm still unclear about what Luke's problem was. Matt crossed a line? Matt was stopping crime in Hell's Kitchen too well? Matt was getting too scary? If Matt wasn't killing people, what was Luke objecting too? Nevertheless, Matt apologizes to Luke, who tells him that everyone goes through crap, but it just looked like Matt wasn't coming out the other side of it. This is so unclear to me. If Matt was being overly brutal with criminals, couldn't we have been shown an example? Or was it just that Matt had become too moody? This whole conflict with Luke needed to be explained more clearly by Bendis, because it seemed like Matt was doing a good enough job stopping crime, and he wasn't in danger of becoming a criminal himself, so I don't know what this Luke and Matt scene changed.

Then we get a long spiel from Sano, where he's spouting off on how his underlings should be able to kill a guy like Daredevil. I could have sworn that Sano himself is one of the guys who failed to kill Daredevil. By this point, Sano just seems to be Sammy Silke rewritten to be Asian. He is the exact same character, and he does not justify the long strings of dialogue he gets.

The splash page with Daredevil, Spidey, Power Man and Iron Fist is spectacular. I'm surprised I haven't seen a poster of this.

As for the ending, while I was puzzled that Milla hadn't put on some clothes, I think Foggy would have attempted to talk to Matt first about Karen, since the "nervous breakdown" thing is such an earth-shattering notion, before bringing it up to Milla. Maybe it would have been a better idea if Bendis had Foggy lecturing him about Karen in Night Nurse's clining instead of Ben Urich. That way, we would have at least seen Foggy fail to get Matt to listen to him. What we have now is Foggy completely overstepping the boundaries of friendship without going to Matt first.

While I'm happy to see Agent Driver meet his demise, this issue suffers from a lot of Bendis and Maleev's worst habits. There is a lot of chatter, and a lot of it is not as insightful as Bendis thinks it is. Scenes go one way longer than they should, and we seem to be repeating stories and patterns from twenty issues previous. This was weak. I give it a 2.5 out of 5.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macjr33 wrote:
So before I get to my actual thoughts on the issue, I have more of a general question. Given that I only got back in comic books about 3 years ago and in doing so was new to Daredevil everything I read outside of Soule's current run was in trades. My question is for those that read Bendis real time did they feel different about it because you had to wait a month for the next issue. I ask because if my liking of Bendis' run is skewed by the fact that I was able to read it all at once.

I can't say that reading issue by issue made me feel different. I was on this message board giving my thoughts about every Bendis issue as they came out, and I was one of the few people giving negative reviews. Most people at the time seemed to be huge fans of each issue, and most professional review sites seemed to treat each new issue like the Second Coming. I really don't understand it.
macjr33 wrote:
Where I have a different interpretation is that Matt had unsettled trust issues with Karen. My perspective was that during Born Again when Karen revealed to Matt what she had done that Matt forgave her instantly and it was almost Christ-like (which would certainly fit with the Catholic themes of that story). Now I have not read everything that came between Born Again and Guardian Devil; however, I don't recall Karen ever doing anything that would have gave Matt new reasons to not trust her. If anything, it would be argued that Karen should have trust issues with Matt given that he cheated on her with Typhoid Mary and came close to getting back together with Elektra. Again there may be something I missed as I have not read anything.

As tacky as it may now be, I'm thinking mostly of Matt's outburst to Karen about her past lifestyle in "Guardian Devil." The fact that he said it, and suggested it as a possible reason for her AIDS diagnosis indicates a level of distrust. You can dismiss it as has hacky writing from Kevin Smith, and Karen didn't have much longer to live, but it at the very least suggested there was some dark corner in Matt's psyche where Karen still had a few things for which Matt needed to forgive her.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bendis's dialogue pacing was very useful in the start. It's a fairly benign FBI conversation that goes on too long, but we get to see a few different moments that are important. One, we see Agent Driver and Del Toro together and their different perspectives. We get a debate about whether vigilantism is good as the Yakuza are freed from jail. Driver seems to be leaning towards using vigilantes, Del Toro is taking a much more sensible middle ground. Their argument, which starts to be about whether the Yakuza would leave or not, takes a sudden, dramatic turn that adds something quite interesting to the story.

I do like the Foggy/Matt relationship in this issue. In the past, it's been nagging and whining, and bickering. Here, Foggy is supportive. He's acting intelligently. And they have genuine friendship and even humor (I like the "yellow" joke). I also loved the exchange between Daredevil and Jessica. This issue has had humor that's been missing for a while.

That being said, while I'm praising Foggy and Matt, I'm not a fan of what Foggy did at the end. Definitely feels like he's making things worse.

Four Stars. It's good to see things having some momentum again and some signs that things might get better for Matt.
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macjr33
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find this to be another solid issue where its strength is in the interactions we get between several of the characters.

First, I really like Matt and Foggy's dynamic in this issue. I too like the joking and that he is generally supportive of Matt. Loved the reference to the yellow costume as well and the humor in general. Overall the conversation showed how there was a deep understanding between them and that their relationship had a lot of depth.

I know some of you have brought up him talking to Milla and honestly I don't see too much of an issue with it. In my mind he is just trying to help and is concerned for Milla. Certainly no where near as bad as when he and Natasha decided to forge messages between Matt and Heather to break them up. Though I definitely thought it was weird that Milla was in her underwear during the conversation.

Also enjoyed Matt's interactions with Luke and Jessica. The humor was needed and adds to the relationship between the characters.

I also enjoyed Matt's interaction with Milla as it showed how loving and kind Matt can be when he is not breaking bones.

I even found the conversation between Foggy and Ben to be quite good as well.

The page with Matt, Luke, Danny and Peter is epic and one of my favorite Maleev panels. As I am a Maleev fan in general enjoyed the art throughout.

4 stars for me!
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #60 - The King of Hell's Kitchen Part 6



Quote:
Daredevil returns, ready to rid the city of Yakuza crime lords once and for all. And this time, he’s brought some backup.


Due 7/29
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to emphasize that I have never read "Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen" before. I'll admit to being predisposed to disliking Bendis' work before I read it, but that's only because I've disliked so much of his work before. I purchased every issue of "Wake Up" and all of #26-50. I think I gave him a fair shake, and I grew sick of him. I also gave glowing reviews to the second part of "Trial of the Century" and the issue in this arc which had the Night Nurse, so that proves that I can be objective.

I found this issue underwhelming for a few reasons.

First: Is there anybody out there who thinks a bunch of Yakuza -- no matter how numerous -- are a match for not only Daredevil, but also Spider-Man, Luke Cage and Iron Fist? Were you worried for any of them? I certainly wasn't. The fact that we saw Matt take on a bunch of them alone and out of costume already certainly robbed this battle of most of its impact. I just couldn't get worked up reading this.

Second: Daredevil's taunting of Sano. I'm on record for hating the way Alex Maleev draws Matt with his gritted teeth. It always looks like he's getting ready to spit out a loogy. But there is also this pattern in Bendis' stories where, in the climactic battle against the antagonist, the hero always belittles the villain, saying he never had a chance of winning. Daredevil does that, yet again, here. He did it against the Owl in "Lowlife" and he did it against Bullseye in "Hardcore." He may have even done that against Fisk too. Now he does it against Sano. Now I never thought Sano had a chance against Daredevil -- that's one of the reasons I had a hard time caring about this story. But when you have our hero talking like that while beating down the villain, you have Matt starting to look conceited and resorting to puffery. He's acting like a dog displaying dominant behaviour to get to the top of the pack, and I always thought that Matt was better than that.

I always thought that Matt, even at his lowest, had a measure of self-awareness, control and humility. The Bendis version of the character doesn't. I have never seen Daredevil bark at a villain to tell the police what they need to hear. My favourite version of Daredevil, as written by either Miller or O'Neil, never would have had to do that. He could just get the villains to do what he wants with a look. My classic version of the character is a man of few words. He speaks through actions. That's why I'll always be of the view that Bendis just doesn't understand how Daredevil works best as a character.

Third: Milla running out. We've never actually been told whether Matt ever told Milla about past girlfriends before marrying her. Now, I think Milla is a very well-written character. One of the things I like about her is how independent and smart she is. If she has fallen in love with Daredevil, then she ought to know a lot of Matt's previous relationships are a matter of public record. At the very least, she ought to know that he was involved with Black Widow, whose allegiance has often been called into question. I would think a smart lady like Milla would have had the wherewithal to ask Matt about that before accepting his proposal. I don't know whether she'd have found out about Elektra, but I think she'd have heard Karen's name in passing, simply from hanging around the office, and wouldn't have been scared to approach Matt about that too. I don't think there would have been anything wrong with her doing that either, since she has every right to protect herself. It's in both her and Matt's best interest to go into a marriage with complete awareness of themselves and each other.

Now, I've typed at length about how ridiculous it is that Bendis is treating this notion of the "nervous breakdown" as being so revolutionary. I would have expected anyone hanging around Matt to appreciate that he has unresolved issues surrounding Karen's death, and perhaps he should seek the help of a therapist. I find it laughable that never occurred to Foggy until 54 issues after Karen's death. I find it similarly laughable it never occurred to Ben Urich, a journalist who's seen it all. I know that Milla is a comparatively new addition to the cast, but, since I believe she should have at least been aware of Karen's existence, it shouldn't be surprising that a man who was involved with Karen at the time of her death may need help working through it.

So, while I agree with the idea that Matt wouldn't have married Milla so quickly were he of sound mind, I also don't see this revelation that he is troubled about Karen's death to be grounds for running out on him. What promise did he break? I completely believe that Matt and Milla are in love with each other. Why wouldn't she help him work through this? I just don't get it. Why is this "nervous breakdown" being treated like Matt's cardinal sin? Ben, Foggy and Milla are treating Matt like he has some gross infection, when the truth is that he simply has issues he needs help working through.

I think good writers display their characters working at the peak of their intelligence, and I don't think Bendis has done that at all in his Daredevil run. Characters realize things too late. Underlings take advantage of their superior's weaknesses, but they do so sloppily. Everybody gets called crazy or a loser. People make rash decisions with catastrophic outcomes, instead of taking a breath and behaving like adults. In Bendis comics, everyone is Star Lord.

Finally, Ben Urich needs an entire page to look at a newspaper-- a newspaper telling us what we already know. I think this issue came in one page short, and Bendis, seeing that, said to himself, "Heck, I'm one page short. Well, maybe Ben looks at a newspaper. I don't care." Really, what are we supposed to take away from this page? Does Ben think Daredevil shouldn't have stopped the Yakuza?

Previous issues in this arc were lifted up by Ben Urich's Dashiell Hammet-esque narration. This issue suffered from its absence. Yes, there were some neat kicks, but there were also some action beats I felt Maleev could have done better, like showing how Matt can sense what's going on behind him. But the bottom line is that I think Daredevil has to be done better than this. This Daredevil, as written by Bendis, is not my Daredevil. I realize that is completely subjective, so I'm not going to give it an insulting mark, but I'm going to give this issue a low grade. 2.5 out of 5.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maleev has strengths and weaknesses. I don't think the splash page with Daredevil, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist was his strongest. The muted colors and indistinct background makes it look overall underwhelming. There are some cool moments in the fight scene, but underwhelming is the word I'd use overall. I liked Daredevil's lines scaring the criminals. I like the idea that, in this dark world, he can hold his own in intimidation. That being said, I prefer the way Frank Miller does it where he can do it without speaking or lifting a finger.

After that, it feels like the story ends quite abruptly. There's a conversation with Milla that's continuing the situation. I like their relationship, so it's a shame to see them having issues. On the other hand, I don't know their marriage, so it's hard to be upset if that's falling apart.

Three and a Half Stars. This felt disappointing overall, which is a shame since I thought it had much greater potential. I guess I don't have much else to say.
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