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The Death of Daredevil: Speculation
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1010
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: The Death of Daredevil: Speculation Reply with quote

So I watched that video with Charles Soule talking about how #612 will be his last. I have some thoughts I have to unload.

1. It's about time. While I think there are far worse runs than Soule's on Daredevil, his has had its bright spots. I love that issue with the poker game, and Muse is the best new villain in many years. His run has been decent, but I've been eager to have someone else's take on our hero for a while now.

2. I am tired of people calling it a tradition on Daredevil to leave the title character in a bad spot for the next writer. It dates back to Bendis with Volume 2 #81. That amounts to 460 issues and almost 40 years without that "tradition." It's no secret that I'm not a fan of Bendis, but to perpetuate a questionable creative practice just because Bendis did it -- that isn't healthy. And deep down we all know that Bendis ended his Daredevil run the way he did because he had no idea how to get Matt out of the various jams he put him in. No, he left that for Brubaker, who had to spend most of his run cleaning up all the messes made by Bendis, and that's not exactly fair. If we can put this "tradition" to rest, I think that would make for better stories. New creative teams should be unencumbered so they can tell the stories they want to tell.

3. This whole "death" thing. Yes, in recent years Marvel has "killed off" popular characters like Steve Rogers and Bruce Banner, and introduced "legacy" versions of Captain America and the Hulk respectively. But that seems to have passed by the wayside. Now, Steve is back to being Cap and Bruce is once again the Hulk. All the old favourites seem to be back. I can't help but think that at the end of this, Matt is still going to be Daredevil, but if he isn't....

Us Daredevil fans have never had to deal with Matt's death before. We have seen him fake his death, but we were in on it. If Matt dies, I'll be upset. I won't be able to help it. It would be needless and sensationalist, and the fact that Soule would be doing it without even finishing the story makes it seem like even more of a stunt, as opposed to the launching ground for a story.

I'm fully aware that the fanbases of characters like Cap, Spidey, Supes and Wolverine have all gone through this and survived. I don't know if those fanbases have survived intact. Perhaps some of those put off by the death of their hero gave up comics all together and never returned. But, at this point, with comics having such negligible sales numbers, I'm not sure Marvel is too worried about us readers. They would rather workshop future screenplay ideas in the pages of our comics. You can't deny that it's working out nicely for them.

I honestly don't know where Soule is going with this. I could end up feeling alientated as a fan by this story. I could end up being thrilled by the selection of the next writer. I'm excited we're getting more Phil Noto art. But, I don't like being disrespected. I resented being left in the dark for 20 issues as to how Daredevil's secret identity was restored, and I resent this tease about "a death."

Just tell good stories, Marvel. You don't need to abuse your most loyal customers, who -- never forget -- read your comics.
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Sunni
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Joined: 07 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for starting this topic, Dimetre Smile

Dimetre wrote:
I love that issue with the poker game, and Muse is the best new villain in many years. His run has been decent, but I've been eager to have someone else's take on our hero for a while now.

I’ve loved Soule’s run (I would have liked a little more Matt and Elektra, but that’s it, really), but I agree no one should be on the title for too long. There’re simply too many writers out there who deserve a chance to write Matt, and I do think only having one voice for a character and their world can be damaging over time. I’m not a Spider-Man fan, but I do think having Slott on the title for ten years depressed sales and interest in the character.

Dimetre wrote:
If we can put this "tradition" to rest, I think that would make for better stories. New creative teams should be unencumbered so they can tell the stories they want to tell.

I’m on the fence with this one. On the one hand, it’s nice for the exiting writer to put all the toys back in the box so the new one can start fresh. On the other, this tradition is unique to Matt, so it’s another thing that separates him from the rest of the superhero pack.

Dimetre wrote:
I can't help but think that at the end of this, Matt is still going to be Daredevil, but if he isn't....

The Hollywood Reporter isn’t buying that he’s actually dying either: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/daredevil-will-die-comics-death-daredevil-1146219

Dimetre wrote:
If Matt dies, I'll be upset. I won't be able to help it. It would be needless and sensationalist, and the fact that Soule would be doing it without even finishing the story makes it seem like even more of a stunt, as opposed to the launching ground for a story.

Yeah, when I read the news, I was very angry. And you are right, it is a sensationalist stunt to drive up sales.

Dimetre wrote:
I'm fully aware that the fanbases of characters like Cap, Spidey, Supes and Wolverine have all gone through this and survived. I don't know if those fanbases have survived intact. Perhaps some of those put off by the death of their hero gave up comics all together and never returned.

IMHO the more unified the fanbase, the better the fanbase weathers these storms. We’re well positioned as Daredevil means Matt, and the success of the Netflix show just reinforces that identity. It’s not like Green Lantern where there’s Hal, Kyle, John, Jessica, Guy, Baz, and Alan fanbases fighting over who gets the mantle. No one is chomping at the bit to have Sam, Mike, Danny Rand, Elektra or someone new be Daredevil. If Marvel goes that route, everyone is just going to be waiting until Matt comes back.

Dimetre wrote:
But, at this point, with comics having such negligible sales numbers, I'm not sure Marvel is too worried about us readers. They would rather workshop future screenplay ideas in the pages of our comics. You can't deny that it's working out nicely for them.

Nothing lasts forever. Westerns were once hot as well. I don’t think superhero movies and tv shows will disappear anytime soon, but to expect them to be as big as they are right now indefinitely seems foolhardy.

Dimetre wrote:
I honestly don't know where Soule is going with this. I could end up feeling alientated as a fan by this story. I could end up being thrilled by the selection of the next writer. I'm excited we're getting more Phil Noto art. But, I don't like being disrespected. I resented being left in the dark for 20 issues as to how Daredevil's secret identity was restored, and I resent this tease about "a death."

Me too. Anyway, rumor has it that Cebulski offered Duggan a dream gig after Infinity Wars, which would work considering he wrote the Infinity Countdown tie-in with Daredevil. I remember thinking at the time I read it the first two pages were a little introspective for an event one shot, so it could have been a try-out. If that’s the case, I hope the timeline we’re getting is something like this:
    1. Matt dies in #610 in October. #611 is the issue that has “everyone” in it according to Soule on Twitter, so presumably that’s the funeral or something because if everyone was helping Matt with Kingpin, why would Matt die? What is everyone else doing, standing around?
    2. Cates revives him in Marvel Knights 20th #1 in November, which fits the solicit where an amnesiac Matt is at a grave. I originally was thinking it would be Jack’s, but now it has to be Matt’s.
    3. Matt is in Marvel Knights 20th #2-6 in November, December, and January.
    4. Duggan or whoever relaunches Daredevil with Matt in February.

Dimetre wrote:
Just tell good stories, Marvel. You don't need to abuse your most loyal customers, who -- never forget -- read your comics.

Exactly. While I was not a big fan of Waid’s run, I do think he was right in calling Daredevil a cerebral title. Stunts aren’t going to drive sales up the way they would for some other books with broader appeal. Not everyone wants the reflective storytelling and character depth Daredevil provides, and they aren’t going to suddenly be interested in the book now due to Matt dying. Daredevil is a boutique title, and that’s fine. I just hope Marvel realizes that.
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macjr33
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Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunni wrote:
Thank you for starting this topic, Dimetre Smile


Agreed, great topic to discuss and awesome perspective as always Dimetre.

Dimetre wrote:
I love that issue with the poker game, and Muse is the best new villain in many years. His run has been decent, but I've been eager to have someone else's take on our hero for a while now.

Sunni wrote:
I’ve loved Soule’s run (I would have liked a little more Matt and Elektra, but that’s it, really), but I agree no one should be on the title for too long. There’re simply too many writers out there who deserve a chance to write Matt, and I do think only having one voice for a character and their world can be damaging over time. I’m not a Spider-Man fan, but I do think having Slott on the title for ten years depressed sales and interest in the character.


Agreed on the poker issue, it was a lot of fun. The stand out issue for me is #19, loved seeing all the different "versions" of Matt and I loved the idea that the worst thing Matt could ever think to to do is watch the world go to hell and to do nothing. That was pretty powerful for me and sums up why I love Matt so much as a character. Also, the most recent Mayor Murdock arc was definately his best arc in the entire run, couple with Noto's amazing art.

For me, particularly during the beginning and middle of the run, there was just a lack of supporting cast for Matt other than Blindspot that bothered me. We had very little of Foggy or Elektra. Natasha never showed up. If Danny or Luke made an appearance I am not remembering it.

Now I will saw that when Soule did include other characters he handled it really well. The brief appearance with Elektra was great and made me wish they had a child together. Enjoyed the issue with Spider-Man and Captain America and it was nice to see Jen Walters pop in for an issue (and continued to remind me to ask the question of why these two characters haven't interacted more).

Overall, I thought Soule did an admirable job. I wouldn't put him up there with Bendis, Miller, Waid or Brubaker; however, it was a solid run.

Dimetre wrote:
If we can put this "tradition" to rest, I think that would make for better stories. New creative teams should be unencumbered so they can tell the stories they want to tell.

Sunni wrote:
I’m on the fence with this one. On the one hand, it’s nice for the exiting writer to put all the toys back in the box so the new one can start fresh. On the other, this tradition is unique to Matt, so it’s another thing that separates him from the rest of the superhero pack.


Agreed that this is something that does separate Matt from other superheros, though at times it seems that people who continually cite Miller as such as inspiration miss that fact that Miller left Matt the happiest he had ever been at the end of Born Again. Was his life perfect, no he lost his law license; however, he was happy.

With that said, I love Bendis and Brubaker's runs so I am certainly ok with where they went.

Dimetre wrote:
I can't help but think that at the end of this, Matt is still going to be Daredevil, but if he isn't....

Sunni wrote:
The Hollywood Reporter isn’t buying that he’s actually dying either: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/daredevil-will-die-comics-death-daredevil-1146219


Dimetre wrote:
If Matt dies, I'll be upset. I won't be able to help it. It would be needless and sensationalist, and the fact that Soule would be doing it without even finishing the story makes it seem like even more of a stunt, as opposed to the launching ground for a story.

Sunni wrote:
Yeah, when I read the news, I was very angry. And you are right, it is a sensationalist stunt to drive up sales.


Not buying that Matt is dying or if he does it will be very brief. My theory is that, through all of this, they are going to find a way to bring Karen back.

Dimetre wrote:
Just tell good stories, Marvel. You don't need to abuse your most loyal customers, who -- never forget -- read your comics.

Sunni wrote:
Exactly. While I was not a big fan of Waid’s run, I do think he was right in calling Daredevil a cerebral title. Stunts aren’t going to drive sales up the way they would for some other books with broader appeal. Not everyone wants the reflective storytelling and character depth Daredevil provides, and they aren’t going to suddenly be interested in the book now due to Matt dying. Daredevil is a boutique title, and that’s fine. I just hope Marvel realizes that.


I think Marvel realizes that Daredevil, and it's fanbase, are different that perhaps any other title they currently have so I am not worried about them doing anything that would severely jeopardize that for us.
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Daredevil24
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Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost, THANK GOD SOULE IS LEAVING! I didn't hate the run, but this run was the epitome of mediocrity to me. I did like the idea of Elektra and Matt having a kid, but everything else after Tenfingers wasn't all that impressive-- well Muse was fun too.

I am predicting Kyle Higgins will write DD. You heard it first. Jason Aaron is my second guess.

If Blindspot assumes the mantle I'll rage. Enough with the replacing crap. I really think Soule hurt himself but making all DD's relationships compromised. Every time someone made a guest appearance it fell flat. There was no connection.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, it seems to me that Soule is leaving quicker than he would have liked judging by the interview. I don't know when Daredevil routinely sold outside of the top 100 so I wonder if this is the reason for his exit. Just months ago Soule was saying how he was gonna be on the book for the foreseeable future.
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Sunni
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Joined: 07 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Muse is the best new villain in many years.

Daredevil24 wrote:
Muse was fun too.

Whoever is writing next needs to make reviving Muse a priority. He’s the best Marvel villain in a long time, and he needs to be put back in play as soon as possible. Muse cannot just be a standout of Soule’s run; he needs to be a major part of Matt’s rogues gallery going forward.

macjr33 wrote:
Agreed on the poker issue, it was a lot of fun. The stand out issue for me is #19, loved seeing all the different "versions" of Matt and I loved the idea that the worst thing Matt could ever think to to do is watch the world go to hell and to do nothing. That was pretty powerful for me and sums up why I love Matt so much as a character. Also, the most recent Mayor Murdock arc was definately his best arc in the entire run, couple with Noto's amazing art.

#8, #19, and #605 are my favorite issues of this run for exactly the reasons you mention.

Sunni wrote:
I would have liked a little more Matt and Elektra

macjr33 wrote:
For me, particularly during the beginning and middle of the run, there was just a lack of supporting cast for Matt other than Blindspot that bothered me. We had very little of Foggy or Elektra. Natasha never showed up. If Danny or Luke made an appearance I am not remembering it.

Daredevil24 wrote:
I really think Soule hurt himself but making all DD's relationships compromised. Every time someone made a guest appearance it fell flat. There was no connection.

Apparently that was on purpose. Soule wrote on his blog that his run was about Matt struggling with his depression and failing to see his own value. Given that information, it’s all there on the page as Matt avoids his friends, doesn’t date anyone, fails to get along with his work colleagues, doesn’t bond properly with his apprentice (Sam thinks of Matt as a father, but Matt thinks of Sam as a friend), considers letting Bullseye shoot him, emotionally saves Mike, never does anything just for fun, and only relaxes when he’s beating someone up. But at the same time, if we’re all complaining about the use of the supporting cast to varying degrees, then Soule’s intent wasn’t communicated to us readers clearly enough through the writing. Perhaps he should have had Elektra or Maya or Natasha try to rekindle their romantic relationship with Matt only for Matt to push them away.

Daredevil24 wrote:
I don't know when Daredevil routinely sold outside of the top 100 so I wonder if this is the reason for his exit.

Waid ran into the same problem.

Daredevil24 wrote:
Just months ago Soule was saying how he was gonna be on the book for the foreseeable future.

You’re correct, so I’m wondering if the Marvel Knights 20th miniseries is the catalyst here, and Soule’s been overridden by Cates’ “Matt has amnesia” plot since the mini is supposed to be both in continuity and reflected in the solo books. Maybe Matt doesn’t get his memory back by the end of it?
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Books don't always directly line up chronologically. MK20 could take place before the end of Daredevil, for example.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunni wrote:
Soule wrote on his blog that his run was about Matt struggling with his depression and failing to see his own value. Given that information, it’s all there on the page as Matt avoids his friends, doesn’t date anyone, fails to get along with his work colleagues, doesn’t bond properly with his apprentice (Sam thinks of Matt as a father, but Matt thinks of Sam as a friend), considers letting Bullseye shoot him, emotionally saves Mike, never does anything just for fun, and only relaxes when he’s beating someone up. But at the same time, if we’re all complaining about the use of the supporting cast to varying degrees, then Soule’s intent wasn’t communicated to us readers clearly enough through the writing.

Wow. If that was Soule's intention, that did not come through to me at all.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a little bit of it early when he was avoiding talking to Foggy (although Foggy wasn't thrilled with him). Certainly, the depression aspect was clear when he gets shot at in that one story.

That being said, the lack of interaction with others in the District Attorney's Office comes across almost in an early Lee/Ditko Spider-Man that everyone thinks Matt is snobby and shirking his responsibilities when he had to be Daredevil. Either way, the lack of a supporting cast in the DA's Office remained the thing that bothered me the most about Soule's run.

So I think Soule presented Matt having depression effectively, but not necessarily the consequences of that depression.
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Daredevil24
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't we just get Matt with a supporting cast, with him just fighting crime. I'm over the hidden depression or over the top humor. I'd like a balance like Ann Nocenti had pre Mary or even D.G Chickhester pre Fall From Grace.

Daredevil seems more popular than ever so you'd think his comics would be in the top 50 since it used to be there without any media assistance.
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