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DD Book Club - Decalogue
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevil Vol. 2 #75 - Decalouge Part 5: Thou Shall Not Kill



Quote:
"Decalogue." The haunting secret of Matt Murdock's year as Kingpin is revealed in this shocking double-sized conclusion that features a super-sized, hardboiled Daredevil story and a stunning superstar gallery of classic Daredevil images handpicked by the creative team of Bendis and Maleev. Part 5 of 5.


The Decalogue is the Ten Commandments. Since this is only a five-part story, I'm really curious why they chose the ones they did. Bear false witness and steal were moved up in the order - probably to end with the more dramatic one. I'm not saying a ten-part story would have been a good one, but it would have been an ambitious idea to truly explore the commandments.

Due 9/24
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an eerie tension that builds up in the early pages as it's hard to know what to expect. Matt is calm and in charge, which oddly adds to the disorienting feeling of trying to figure out what's going on. Luckily, things are quickly explained.

We flashback to Daredevil's battle with the Jester. I've said before that the Jester is actually one of my favorite Daredevil villains. I liked the redemption arc he had first in Daredevil 218 and then truly in the Playing to the Camera story arc. I don't like how Bendis treats him like a complete joke. Yes, I realize he has an absurd costume and gimmick and all that, but that's part of comics. It doesn't really feel like Jonathan Powers's MO to do something like buying weird magic to get an edge. To me, he's above thinking he couldn't do it himself. On top of that, I always complain that there's this tendency to seek to be super realistic unless it's Japanese, then you can go as supernatural as you want. Honestly, I blame Frank Miller significantly for this. I don't know if it was intentional, he was just cashing in on the ninja craze, but you have very street level villains except for the Hand, and I think everyone followed.

But I am digressing since the story isn't really about the Jester. I'm not sure it's about the demon baby. I think the story tries to have its cake and eat it too. After taking a hard left in that direction, it veers back at the end. The demon is defeated fairly anticlimactically and the story goes back to the therapy group. Matt's speech is actually a good speech. It fits the themes of the little guy and community that work well for the character. It also seems to fit the ongoing story of Matt's mental state. His recent actions were reckless to the point of nihilistic and he confesses as much right here. But I don't think the speech was earned. The little guy stories needed to be beefier to really get the point across, imo. I know I'm asking a lot for a modern comic, but they needed twice as much content per story and I think an argument could be made that they needed to have two per issue (I'm assuming this can't be a ten story arc - although it was a Ten Commandments metaphor, so the argument could be made either way).

This is probably the third time reading this story. To its credit, I noticed more in the final speech than I did the last two times, which has warmed me up to it a bit. But I feel that it doesn't do enough with the concept or really enough overall. This could have been a much stronger story with more planning and tighter writing. Three and a Half Stars.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think it's a shame that the Jester is treated like a C-grade villain this issue. When Mike Murdock and I looked at the Jester's first appearances last year, I was struck by what a legitimate threat he was to Daredevil under Stan Lee and Gene Colan's mastery. http://www.manwithoutfear.com/messageboard/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3778&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I have long had a problem with Brian Michael Bendis' tendency to downplay how threatening Daredevil's villains are. It seems that every one of Daredevil's old foes he brought forward throughout his Daredevil run has been referred to as a "loser," "pathetic," or something to that effect. (Maybe not Typhoid.) It makes me think that Bendis doesn't understand that the more seriously an audience takes a villain, the more invested they grow in the hero's quest to overcome them. His choice to refer to the Jester as "an idiot" baffles me. I'll never understand the compulsion to pair a hero with an inadequate antagonist. If Bendis thinks the Jester sucks, than either don't use him, or portray him in a way that makes him better. He does neither of those things, and I'll never understand what enjoyment we're supposed to take from that.

The explanation for the demon baby is given in this issue, but it's an enormous exposition dump. Once again, Alex Maleev makes no effort to portray what is being explained. We just have Matt's 26 dialogue balloons surrounding drawings of Lawrence as we zoom in closer on him. This page makes no use of what comics does so well -- show us a story.

I also thought Matt's final speech was strong. He respects the people of Hell's Kitchen, and shows a new awareness of his effect on their lives.

But I think "Decalogue" is an absolute mess. As I typed before, its original idea, as it was presented to us, was fine. We would be looking at ordinary citizens and be shown how their lives were touched by the Man Without Fear. Instead, the story is violently jerked midway by the appearance of a demon baby from an ancient religion. However, in the end, Bendis has Matt deliver a speech about the people of the community, and Daredevil's place among them. What did all the stuff about the demon baby have to do with that?

I think all of the stuff with the demon baby is awful. I think both instances this issue where it gets vomited up are both gross and ridiculous. The baby doesn't even do anything. The most we see it do is try to crawl up a woman's mouth, but Daredevil touches it. This demon baby can not only be punched, it can be shot and killed. A demon can be punched, shot and killed.

As I try to score this issue, I have to give points for Matt's speech, but all the stuff with the demon baby and the depiction of the Jester is awful. I think I'm giving this issue a 2.5 out of five. As I said, I think the entire arc is a mess, with the demon baby contributing nothing to whatever Bendis is trying to say. It's too bad, because there were a couple of good issues in this arc, but it adds up to very little. I think I'm giving "Decalogue" a 2.5 out of 5 also.
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age


Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:

It seems that every one of Daredevil's old foes he brought forward throughout his Daredevil run has been referred to as a "loser," "pathetic," or something to that effect. (Maybe not Typhoid.)


I believe she was referred to as a "crazy *%&@"

I think the argument can even be applied to this demon baby and the creepy dude he inhabited. In the end, he wasn't much of a threat either. I tried to credit it as trying to pivot back to the original story idea, but Matt basically says all his villains self-destruct in the end and this was the same.
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Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!

I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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macjr33
Flying Blind


Joined: 22 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we open this issue, we get Matt addressing the group. I really like Maleev's art here and he depicts the facial expressions of each of those in attendance. I also love how he addresses Lawrence, "If you try to run I WILL chase you. If you try to attack me, I WILL hurt you. If you try to hurt anyone else in this room...God help you!. Stay. Sit." He's clam and in charge.

As for the flashback regarding the Jester. Love the art for the fight scene, particularly how the billy club is issued. The first full page is beautiful as well.

Now, for how the Jester is depicted. I will admit, I haven't read his original appearance so I can't claim to know how much of a threat he was to Matt; however, I personally have no issue with how he is treated. Dimetre, I do understand how you feel with regards to Bendis downplaying some of Matt's older rogues gallery; however, my take is that he does this because he wants to play up how much of a true threat Bullyseye and the Kingpin are to Matt. That there is such a wide gap between those two and the rest of his rogues (with perhaps the exception of Typhoid Mary). In the next arc, Matt knocks Angela off a building and breaks her arm because even with the White Tiger Amulet she is no match for Bullseye. So in that sense I can see what Bendis is trying to do.

Back to the story, we get the explanation of the demon baby and I probably agree with Mike here that you can be super street level until you bring in something Japanese than all bets are off. I don't really have too much of an issue with it as Mike points out Bendis is hardly the first person to do it. I do like that Matt tries to help him.

When Matt comes back to the room, I do like the writing here. I actually like that Matt compares the demon baby to another other weapon because the end result is the same. I like the line about how they all self destruct as well as the line to the priest about how you can't pick and chose if you believe in God/Jesus/angels. Matt speech to group is strong and I love that he spent all this time saying he isn't a ninja and then the FBI agent says "$@#&ING Ninja", made me laugh. Last page is also great.

So for Decalogue as whole. I concede that it could have been executed better and that there probably was a greater story to tell that Bendis decided to change. With that said, there is a lot I enjoyed here from both the art and the writing. To me what this arc does well (and what I feel Bendis did well through his entire run) is connect Matt with people and really flesh out the world in which he lives in. Is this the best arc in Bendi's run, no; however, I did enjoy it.

4 out of 5 for me.
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Dimetre
Underboss


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macjr33 wrote:
Dimetre, I do understand how you feel with regards to Bendis downplaying some of Matt's older rogues gallery; however, my take is that he does this because he wants to play up how much of a true threat Bullyseye and the Kingpin are to Matt. That there is such a wide gap between those two and the rest of his rogues (with perhaps the exception of Typhoid Mary). In the next arc, Matt knocks Angela off a building and breaks her arm because even with the White Tiger Amulet she is no match for Bullseye. So in that sense I can see what Bendis is trying to do.

Except Bullseye is referred to as "pathetic" and "nothing" in #49. Daredevil even tells him he should kill himself.

And in #50 we have Ming showing open contempt and no fear to Fisk, even after the Kingpin orders the rape and murder of his wife. There is always someone in a Bendis Daredevil comic, whether it's Agent Driver, Ming or Daredevil himself, poking holes in the reputations of the villains, and I don't see the value in it.
macjr33 wrote:
So based on what you said I am curious, did you like the inclusion of the Avengers/Captain America in Born Again? I only ask because based on what you said you seem to value how a creative team sets up the narrative. Given what Miller had done in the issues prior the inclusion of the Avengers could be perceived as being a bit out of left field. I know there are some that are critical of the end of Born Again because they feel it pivoted too much. I am not one of those people, I think Born Again is nearly flawless from beginning to end though I am curious of your take given what you had previously stated?

Sorry for not getting around to answering this question. I've enjoyed this back and forth, so I don't want you to feel disrespected or ignored.

I suppose the first time I read "Born Again" I felt like the Avengers showed up out of nowhere, and that it was a little jarring. However, I didn't for a second think that it ruined it. I think that Marvel did a much better job in the 80s making the Marvel Universe feel like a single cohesive universe. If Dr. Doom made the Baxter Building take off like a rocket into outer space, it was in outer space in all of Marvel's titles. Marvel isn't like that anymore, and I think it was more fun for me when it was. So, because it's an 80s story, the Avengers' appearance in "Born Again" stays true to that era's "anything can happen and anyone can appear" feel.

Also, Miller had Luke Cage and Iron Fist and The Punisher show up in his initial run on Daredevil. Yes, they're more street level characters than the Avengers, but it still meant, to me, that anyone could show up in Daredevil's stories.

Also, Thor and Iron Man's appearances in "Born Again" are very brief. They enter and exit within a couple of pages. Captain America's presence in "Born Again" fits in perfectly as a conterweight to Nuke. Cap doesn't take over. It's still Matt's story. And, as is made clear by his discussion with Cap on the rooftop, Matt is the one in control of this story.

I love "Born Again." While I think #181 is the greatest issue of a comic book ever, "Born Again" may be the best multi-issue story Frank Miller ever wrote.
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macjr33
Flying Blind


Joined: 22 Nov 2017
Posts: 97
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Except Bullseye is referred to as "pathetic" and "nothing" in #49. Daredevil even tells him he should kill himself.

And in #50 we have Ming showing open contempt and no fear to Fisk, even after the Kingpin orders the rape and murder of his wife. There is always someone in a Bendis Daredevil comic, whether it's Agent Driver, Ming or Daredevil himself, poking holes in the reputations of the villains, and I don't see the value in it.


I think context is important here, particularly for the Bullseye example you listed in #49. He said these things right after Bullseye tried to hit the trifecta by murdering Milla, in his home while being the first time I think he has seen Bullseye since he murdered Karen. Bullseye also mocked him about saying hi to all his girlfriends in Hell. I would be pretty angry as well.

As for Fisk, in the same issue you referenced Matt also called him a force of nature.

We can agree to disagree on this as to me, it didn't take away anything for me.


Dimetre wrote:
Sorry for not getting around to answering this question. I've enjoyed this back and forth, so I don't want you to feel disrespected or ignored.

I suppose the first time I read "Born Again" I felt like the Avengers showed up out of nowhere, and that it was a little jarring. However, I didn't for a second think that it ruined it. I think that Marvel did a much better job in the 80s making the Marvel Universe feel like a single cohesive universe. If Dr. Doom made the Baxter Building take off like a rocket into outer space, it was in outer space in all of Marvel's titles. Marvel isn't like that anymore, and I think it was more fun for me when it was. So, because it's an 80s story, the Avengers' appearance in "Born Again" stays true to that era's "anything can happen and anyone can appear" feel.

Also, Miller had Luke Cage and Iron Fist and The Punisher show up in his initial run on Daredevil. Yes, they're more street level characters than the Avengers, but it still meant, to me, that anyone could show up in Daredevil's stories.

Also, Thor and Iron Man's appearances in "Born Again" are very brief. They enter and exit within a couple of pages. Captain America's presence in "Born Again" fits in perfectly as a conterweight to Nuke. Cap doesn't take over. It's still Matt's story. And, as is made clear by his discussion with Cap on the rooftop, Matt is the one in control of this story.

I love "Born Again." While I think #181 is the greatest issue of a comic book ever, "Born Again" may be the best multi-issue story Frank Miller ever wrote.


No worries, and thanks for the well thought out response makes much more sense given the context. I wasn't aware of how tighter the Marvel Universe was in the 80's as I was born in the 80's! Very Happy

As I said, I love the appearance of the Avengers and Cap's extended involvement as it does make the MU feel much more connected!
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