Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.


Who is the better writer?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The off-topic section
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Who is the better writer?
Neil Gaiman
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
Alan Moore
63%
 63%  [ 7 ]
Frank Miller
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 11

Author Message
The Privateer
Redemption


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 740
Location: South Derbyshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will dig them out of the loft for you then. I was reading Sleeper and Global Frequency Back issues, but I will slot in some Sandman then. Laughing

I was planning on funding my retirement on selling them on eBay!
_________________
Always Out-Manned, Never Out-Gunned
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cas
Flying Blind


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 92
Location: Reading UK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Privateer wrote:
I will dig them out of the loft for you then. I was reading Sleeper and Global Frequency Back issues, but I will slot in some Sandman then. Laughing

I was planning on funding my retirement on selling them on eBay!


By all means sell them, but buy the trades if you do! They have pride of place in one of my bookcases (and it's amazing how many people are drawn to them by the look of the set together, with the rainbow of spines running along the bookshelf - I have ways of making my non-comic-reading friends take note of the medium).

I have to vote for Moore, though. I do love both Miller and Gaiman, and Gaiman in particular has captured my interest with his children's books as well as his work in comics. But Alan Moore, as others have pointed out, has such a range. No-one has yet mentioned Promethea, but it's another fine, fine example of his writing, and quite different to anything else I have read of his. Quite breathtaking work, in my opinion.

Carrie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom


Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!! What a great question...

This is a difficult question to answer. But for me, it is a two-man race between Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore. Everyone else is pretty much lagging behind (yes, even Frank Miller.... which is pretty much blasphemous around these parts, isn't it?). And I do mean everyone. These two authors are operating, in this medium, on a completely different level than all others.

Neil Gaiman is phenomenal. His work, while it delves mostly in fantasy, is incredible well-told. And writes some of the best endings to stories that I have ever seen. They just feel right. Writers like Brian Michael Bendis and Stephen King --granted Stephen's never written a comic book, I'm just using him as a high-profile example-- should take notes (as much as I respect those authors' work, for the most part, they simply CANNOT write endings to their stories. I mean they really can't. Analyze them.). Neil Gaiman writes pretty good characterization... sometimes, it's hit and miss, but mostly it is on.

"Sandman" was very well done. And the thing that I enjoyed most was watching Neil grow as an author as the series comtinued, and ultimately (sadly), concluded. His range within the genre of fantasy is breth-taking. "Neverwhere" was an interesting concept that was pure Gaiman. "American Gods" was wonderfully told. "A Small Film About John Bolton" was pure Neil Gaiman sense of humor and an interesting and very fine directorial debut.

While Neil range lies within, specifically, the fantasy genre, Alan Moore is the definition of "wide range"... in the comics field or anywhere else (have you read his first, and so far only, novel "The Voice of the Fire"?). "Watchemen". A classic. "V for Vendetta". A dark examination... the comic books equivilant to George Orwell's "1984"... that is very well written. "Promethea" is just plain stunning. "From Hell", "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen".... I could go on and on and on, but I don't have to, because Alan Moore had already done that. And that's the point. Absolutely brillient body of work.

As people have already said, Alan's range is the clincher in this debate about these two, very fine, authors. And I happen to agree with it.

Even Neil Gaiman, himself, had said Alan Moore is a genius. And how can I possibly disagree with that??

But Neil Gaiman, to me, is also a genius... he doesn't have to take a back seat to anyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Greg
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 495
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:
(have you read his first, and so far only, novel "The Voice of the Fire"?).


I read Voice of the Fire several months ago... a VERY good book for anybody that appreciates really good writing; this is recommended especially to you Brits, as it focuses primarily on one little English town. HIGHLY recommended.

Also, just for kicks and grins and to - once again - reinforce the breadth and depth of Mr Alan Moore... has anybody heard his spoken-word CDs or his few music-CDs? He worked with David J of Bauhaus and Love & Rockets fame on a handfull of albums... quite interesting stuff, actually!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dorian Gray
Tree of Knowledge


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 213
Location: I live in a silver mine, and I call it Beggar's Tomb

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:
(have you read his first, and so far only, novel "The Voice of the Fire"?)


If I could find it anywhere I would read it. But the best thing that the very small town I live in has is a small Waldenbooks in a now very small mall, thanks a lot Wal Mart for that. I'll probably just end up eventually ordering off of the internet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Privateer wrote:
I will dig them out of the loft for you then. I was reading Sleeper and Global Frequency Back issues, but I will slot in some Sandman then. Laughing

I was planning on funding my retirement on selling them on eBay!



if you want to sell them i'm buying i've got the tpbs but these are on my originals required...

mark
_________________
batlin jack was not a thug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorian Gray wrote:


I picked Gaiman over Moore primarily on the fact that Gaiman has constantally suceeded in more mediums. His comics, books, and movie all have great reviews and are all pretty much great. Moore does have more skill at telling different stories but I thought having skill in different mediums was a little bit more important. But it probably helps Gaiman that I am reading American Gods right now and am loving every minute of it.


Hey DG my theory is that this cadre of writers is stronger for being contempories and probably inspire one another. I definetly pick up a synergy when i read these guys together in a shortish timeframe , while they both remain the definition of original.

mark
_________________
batlin jack was not a thug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozddzealot wrote:

and jc seriously if DC want to throw money at miller to do batman ad infinitum shoot the editor. Miller's ouvre is much larger than killing joke and not to acknowledge it is a bit of a cheap shot.
mark


First off, this is one of the rare occassions where I can see why people might disagree. That said:

Killing Joke is better than Dark Knight. It just is. Dark Knight is fantastic and Miller really hammers out some great stuff built around great themes. But....comon, it's Killing Joke. It's. It's. It's profound in a way that I can't even explain. The Joker is so crazy but so real. You feel bad for the guy (well, I feel bad for the guy).

Maybe it's just that I like crime so much or the fact that I'm impressed that Moore explains why crime happens so well but for me it's Killing Joke all the way.

"To Crime"
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:


Killing Joke is better than Dark Knight. It just is. Dark Knight is fantastic and Miller really hammers out some great stuff built around great themes. But....comon, it's Killing Joke. It's. It's. It's profound in a way that I can't even explain. The Joker is so crazy but so real. You feel bad for the guy (well, I feel bad for the guy).

Maybe it's just that I like crime so much or the fact that I'm impressed that Moore explains why crime happens so well but for me it's Killing Joke all the way.

"To Crime"


JC I so didn't get where you were coming from on this one.. I stuffed up, have to admit a major brain fade...my error and my shame is that I had forgotten that AM did Killing Joke, so i didn't get your post. i just reread it now.

that said Killing Joke was always a mixed book for me, while the joke at the end is brilliant, the ending itself frustrates me. Batman and Joker are at a primal place. I know its predictable but I thought batman should shove his hand down joker's throat and clench a fist. I would even offer that Batman has responsibility for joker's crimes as joker is performing them for Batman! and I felt like the book should have resolved this dillema. AM could've done this so well, that why I was disapointed, Batman Vs Joker has gone on for too long.

Whereas DKR had Batman investigating his own mortality, the line "this would be a good death" sold me on the book. In general I thought DKR was a more accurate take on Batman. Killing Joke shows off AM power but I feel is not as accurate to Batman. DKR2 was shiesenhowsen though...

AM is still streets ahead, Anyway I heard your POV and i do think its within your power to explain the love, give it a go?
(I'm wondering if your running with the redemption angle) ie. Batmans greatness is his power to forgive? I'm very suspicious that i'm reacting like a cop in why I like DKR over Killing Joke.

Mark

and sorry for my sieve-like memory Embarassed
_________________
batlin jack was not a thug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To tell the truth, I didn't really get your post (the one I replyed to) either. I just assumed it was typos or something.

In any event: that's the great thing about the Killing Joke; it doesn't resolve. It just sort of ends. Okay. How to explain this.

Okay, I don't know if this is what you meant to say but you seem to suggest that the idea that Batman is somehow responsible for the Joker's crimes is in some way a theme of the Killing Joke. I don't think so. The point of the Killing Joke, as far as I can tell, is that Joker is crazy because of entirely random and horrible things that happened to him. His wife and unborn child die in a terribly freak accident. Then he's forced, against his will to commit a crime and then he falls into the chemical stuff. I'd argue that the crime and the run in with Batman and all that is random as well insofar as Joker himself didn't have any control over it.

So the point is this: the Joker was just a guy and then terrible, terrible random stuff happened to him. When he realized that everything was just random, when he realized that it was all a joke, he "cracks". That's why he does what he does to Gordon. He's just trying to prove the point that if something terrible enough happens to someone they too will crack. That's why he says he'll give Gordon a moment to "reflect on life and all it's random injustice". It was random injustice that made the Joker.

Okay, this isn't making lots of sense but the point is this: it's all a joke. Okay this is going to get a little over the top here but "justice" as it is usually defined means "to each man his due". When people get what they deserve then it's a just result. But that's the point, see? The Joker didn't deserve what happened to him. It wasn't just. So he's crazy now. But not really. He just realized that it was a joke.

Okay, I'll try again. What's the point of bringing the Joker to justice? Why pretend that justice even exists? Say Joker kills some woman and her child. That's wrong. But what about Joker? His wife and child died. Who's fault is that? No one's. But what's the difference? Why should we care that the random injustice suffered by one person has a human factor attached while the injustice suffered by someone else was just random? At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Hunting down murderers when people die for no reason every day is a little empty. That's the point.

That's why there's no end. That's why the Joker and Batman just laugh. Because it's a joke. Batman caught the Joker but it doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything. No amount of catching the bad guys will bring back Joker's wife. It's a joke.

And that's that.

And it's funny.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ozddzealot
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Timor Leste

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JC

Man which way to reply to this? the boring way would be a semantic rant on choice, predestination, and freewill, so i'll leave that on the shelf, all stuff your very familliar with i'm sure.

so in the interests of black humour; IMO...the joker got his just deserts for being a bad comedian, a weak character, and choosing to be a thief. Sure the price was a little high(heavy dose of irony here), but thats what you get for taking risks with fate. He is really evil because he chooses to embrace his misfortune, he gets the joke but because he's a monster (I doubt he's insane at all anymore) he chooses to embrace the negative aspect of freewill and try to be the ultimate form of random (bad) luck. (as you aptly describe as a joke (I'm not sure about the funny though))

As a flip side to this thought I think one of the biggest jokes(sadly) in the universe is the idea that each man will get his due. In the scheme of the human experience, justice is as rare as hens teeth.

That our comic book hero's, (and a few real people out in the real world) try to attend to this makes them foolish, romantic and tragic (and we love them for it, and buy the comics for our dose of fiction/escapism).

Anyway i'm romantic and foolish enough to believe that even when you get the joke, you still die trying, (making your own choices), to make the world a better place.

and not least (and I presume your fishing here) its not empty chasing murder's at all, just ask a Next Of Kin what it means to get closure on this human element (as pointless as the incident might have been).

We should care about the human element of injustice/misfortune because thats the only thing we can change. (This is where I'm especially tragic...)

mark

spoiler

possibly offensive lawyer joke ahead


































ps lawyer joke for you:

Q? whats the difference between a lawyer and a prostitute?
A a prostitute stops (insert word here) you when you die.

i have even better ones about coppers but they probably need to be emailed
_________________
batlin jack was not a thug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good thread and an interesting read.

It's a tough call between Miller and Moore, but mainly for the reasons already stated by others, if I could only choose one it would have to be Moore. I mean it would have to be Moore if all he did was 'V For Vendetta'. Yes, Killing Joke, From Hell, some of the Swamp Thing stuff...I haven't read Promethea but on the back of Carrie's review I'll pick it up. Years ago he did a great strip called 'Halo Jones' for the UK 2000ad weekly anthology. And Watchmen is, well, Watchmen.

It's all great stuff, but it all pales next to 'V For Vendetta'. Maybe it's because I first read it at a certain time and in a certain place (late 80's /1990, London, Thatchers Britain) but the whole thing just made such an impression, made all the more impressive with the knowledge that there was a huge gap between Moore beginning and ending the whole project. Through the selfishness, degradation and brutality that blighted much of the tale (and yeah, it was easy to forsee such a thing happening in the not too distant future back then), Moore crafted one of the most uplifting, humane tales I've read, anywhere. Beautiful.

So, Moore. Miller a close, close second for many other reasons (all a world apart from 'uplifting' and 'humane'.)

I think Moore and Miller between them revolutionised the industry and changed the way people looked at this small, peculiar sandbox we all here enjoy playing in. Comic books actually were all hip and trendy for a while when these guys flexed their muscles. As good as some of his stuff is, Gainman isn't in the same league.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Daredevil Message Board Forum Index -> The off-topic section All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group