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JR/Privateer.

 
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JR
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Stanley
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: JR/Privateer. Reply with quote

Assuming it is possible, what does Daredevil have to do to overtake Spiderman and X-Men in terms of popularity?

AAAAaaaaaaaaannnnnnd...GO.
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JR
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:17 am    Post subject: Re: JR/Privateer. Reply with quote

Stanley wrote:
Assuming it is possible, what does Daredevil have to do to overtake Spiderman and X-Men in terms of popularity?

AAAAaaaaaaaaannnnnnd...GO.


Almost anything that becomes popular does so because the target audience can relate to it in some way. When looking at this in terms of a story, the audience usually identifies with the protagonist, or in rare cases, the antagonist. This is what drives people to seek out these popular stories, and what gives them such staying power.

Let us take a look at Daredevil/Matt Murdock. We have a protagonist that is handicapped. Yet, at the same time, we have a protagonist that makes the most out of his life. He is, for all intents and purposes, a total player. He is ripped and handsome, and Irish (God Bless 'em), and an extremely successful lawyer. He is a man, up until Bendis' run, or maybe even more so because of it, that is looked up to in the community. On top of all that, he is a superhero.

Now, let's take a quick look at Spiderman and the X-Men. Spidey, while he fights crime, struggles with the fact that he is a total nerd. The X-men meet discrimination at every turn, and are universally hated by those whom they try to rescue and defend.

The target audience of a comic book is one that in all likelyhood identifies with the latter two examples more than the former. Many comic readers, regardless of whether they are or not, feel somewhat nerdy because of their interest in what many consider a subpar medium. Because of this, and human nature in general, this feeling could lead to a sometimes false sense of discrimination on the part of the reader. Let's face it: How many of us have felt that we were missing out on a date with the popular girl, or being asked to that party etc. because we read comics? This alone makes both Spiderman and the X-Men more affable to the average reader.

Conversely, Matt Murdock's strongpoints make him a much weaker protagonist for the casual reader. Most readers do not have great well paying jobs, nor are they able to say that they have had sex with a blind woman, a porn star, and a russian superspy.

Daredevil is a book that thrives, and is as popular as it is, because of the fantasy aspect. DD, much like a superman or a Green Lantern type comic, is accepted because the reader thinks "Wow, I would love to do that." Why these titles have faltered in recent years is because they lack the relatability that a Spiderman or an X-Men title has.

Because of this, DD would only become more popular by taking into account this aspect of the book. It is not too far-fetched to make a claim that in a sense, Matt's handicap is what people relate to most as readers. At points, we all feel helpless, or dare I say, blind. Matt overcomes these aspects, which is in part what makes the book so awe-inspiring. By making Matt Murdock and Daredevil overcome obstacles that the readers have met, such as being a nerd, being discriminated against, or even just the tortures of youth, the Daredevil title should be able to be on par with the top tier books that have become Marvel's flagship.

JR.
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The Privateer
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will paypal people for votes by the way!
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train
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anybody read these threads?
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Stanley
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I am.

Dodged a bullet last round, since we had two pullouts.

but yeah.

theyve still got a few days.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming it is possible, what does Daredevil have to do to overtake Spiderman and X-Men in terms of popularity?

In order to accurately answer this question, I feel that this needs to be broken up in to three pieces, these areas follows:

1.Why are Spiderman & X-men so popular?

2. Why isn't DD as popular

3. What changes are to be made.

Why are Spider-man and X-men so Popular:

Starting with Spiderman, this has always been Marvel's premier title, it has been popular from day one. There was nothing like it when it came out, it was new to the market, it got market penetration and it grabbed the publics imagination and it has stuck there ever since.

Spidey, for me has always been aimed at a younger market, I am aware that lots of adults read it, but it has always been for youngsters, it is universally accessable. Peter Parker is soooo easy for kids to identify with, he has no money, he is at school, to reference in JR's comment:
JR wrote:
Spidey ………..he is a total nerd.

JR wrote:
Almost anything that becomes popular does so because the target audience can relate to it in some way.


The people who buy this were all at school once, they were all trying to balance school life and rather than a super-hero life it would be some other hobby or activity outside of school, we have all had Peter Parker's decisions on work-life balance. We can associate more with PP because he is a down to earth normal kid, he has no money, no spectacular job, he is a Nerd who is picked on, he is normal, and we were like him once in some way or another.

Spiderman, (I will totally honest, I have never bought a Spiderman comic, only Ultimate 6 is the closest so if I go wrong please point out my bad assumptions) is not strictly a crime related comic in the way that DD is. It seems to relate more to super-villains rather than mobsters or criminals. In this way, Spider-man is written in such a way that it comes across as escapism and true fantasy, rather than trying to apply the super-hero to real life crime. DD is placed in real crime situations, gangsters, King-pin, MGH selling etc. Obviously SM has real life issues to deal with, but it never puts Spidey in direct correlation with the crime as it does with DD, this is where some of the differences lie, DD is crime pulp comic, Spiderman is an access all areas fantasy comic, targeting a whole different audience.

Switching to the Xmen, why is that so popular then? Comparing this with Spidey, there is a lot in common from both books, both were started in the 1960’s. both were by Stan Lee, both were brand new fresh ideas, nothing the like of which had been seen.
JR wrote:
The X-men meet discrimination at every turn,

The X-men are minority heroes, oppressed and hated and feared by everyone, including the ones they were trying to protect. They have great characters, they have great villains. Magneto, one of the most powerful mutants is trying to save mutants from oppressive humans, thinks himself superior, Prof X trying to save humans from superior Magneto, but is disliked and feared.

Xmen is a team book, I’d imagine that a lot of the team books back then were very different to this one. They have a great blend of heroes, weirdo’s, a bad-ass in Wolverine, logical professor X, you all had a favourite member and a favourite special power, these were not popular heroes like Batman and Superman, these were hated and feared, it was something new, great set-up, great writing, fresh idea.

Spiderman, brand new idea, something new for comics at the time, Spidey was wisecracking, saving the day and then going back to school or getting no reward for saving the day. I can only surmise that when the comics were launched a minority of the fans have still kept buying it, and fans have stuck with the title, new fans have come along and stuck with the title as so it is still sooooo popular today.

The other similarity to consider is that it is based around a school, a friendly school with like minded people there, people who are all the same, the teachers are all former students, everyone has the mutant gene linking them as a common bond. This may be seen as an attractive point of the book, somewhere to belong in a school with others exactly the same. A minority of people all together, strong together as a team.

This leads me on to three other points, Cartoons, Films and marketing.

Cartoons: Both Xmen and spiderman have had cartoons, that has made them more attractive and available to the buying public, unless you were a comic fan, you would never have known about DD, Punisher, Iron Man etc. But the Xmen and Spidey have had far more publicity and have been thrust in to the children's faces from the cartoon series. Being honest, most of my Xmen knowledge and Spidey knowledge comes from the cartoons, I am aware that the cartoons are different stories, but I know who the characters are. Simply, you love the cartoon and you will want to buy the comic. “ Hmmmm, do I buy this DD I’ve never heard of, or Spidey like on the cartoon off the telly?”. The same applies to the Xmen, cartoon series, boosts public knowledge and perception of them.

Films: Pretty much the same, but this time they are able to target more than children, adults will take note of the film, especially since neither the Spidey nor Xmen films were targeted at children. X’s and Spidey films were great, very well received, Sp 2 was awesome, loved by critics, huge box office success, both X and Spidey films will have bought in new readers. The films have also benefited from top actors in the roles, who have bought a sense of maturity and new audience to the comic book heroes, e.g. Patrick Stewart, Sir Ian Mckellan. I, myself only learned of DD after the film, the film grabbed my attention and now my money is regularly going to Marvel!

This neatly ties in with the third point that pulls them all together, this is marketing and sales. I cannot speak for the 1960’s when they started, but Spidey and the Xmen are marketed and advertised far more than any other title. Have you ever noticed the offers for Marvel subscriptions, which comic titles more often than not are they using to show of subscriptions? Spidey and Xmen. They advertise these far more than the rest. Since the films, with toys, merchandise, clothes, bed spreads; it is everywhere, all drawing people towards the bets place to get new stories about Spidey and Xmen, Marvel comics every month!

When are the other titles ever pushed with the same magnitude as the Spidey and Xmen? The only other ones that come close are the special events, 1602, house of M, Ultimates etc. When has there been a big event that has not had Spidey or Xmen in it? They are the lead characters and thus get more exposure.

Why isn’t DD as popular?

He isn’t as well known, he is not advertised, he is a niche market, does not appeal to the masses. He is a flawed, imperfect hero, people wouldn't want to be DD, but they would you want to Spidey. DD is a lawyer, most find law boring, but most can sympathise with a student.
JR wrote:
Most readers do not have great well paying jobs,
Matt is not short of money, so he does not live with the modest trappings and lifestyle that the average person would do.

DD is only really based in Hells Kitchen, he defends a small territory, but Spidey and Xmen go all over the place, Spidey seems to be all of New York and I don't know about the Xmen. DD is a small time pulp crime fighter, he is not pushed by the powers that be in the same way the X's and SM is. Look at all the spin off books from X & SM that have happened and sold well, DD does not offer this to Marvel.

Another consideration is that SM & X's have had top writers all the time, they are the main titles, so they will be the ones that will draw in the talent, as DD is not in the top, it will be down the pecking order. Obviously DD has had some great writers, but I feel that because it is behind these titles that unless the top writer asked for this title, then he would not necessarily get offered it ahead of one of the major titles.

What Changes to Make

This will be totally unrealistic, but the debating topic said to assume that it is possible.

Marvel need to focus their marketing and sales on to raising the profile of Dardevil, they need to push the title, merchandise it. To help this they will need a good cartoon series and a successful film with high profile actors in it.

The total emphasis on DD will need to change, he must leave Hells Kitchen and take on a bigger area to look after, think state defender not just local area hero! He needs to be misunderstood and feared by the people that he is defending and fighting for, he should not be appreciated, he needs to be dispised and seen as a pest. J Jonah Jameson needs to start to hate him too.

Matt needs to stop practising law and teach in a school, get some stories that we can all relate to that are school or teaching based, student trauma, teacher issues!

DD needs the best writing talent on the title long term, he must be key and central to the big summer mini or maxi series events.

Matt must get a girlfriend with a double barrelled name, something like Jane-Mary, or Mary-kate, or Ashley-Mary-Kate or Elektra-Jane, or Mary-Elektra or… sorry I am milking this one a bit!

DD must have a real badass friend and form a team with someone, a moody bad ass is a winner, and his teammate must have a secret past though.

DD must move away strictly crime related stories and move more in to super-villain stories and crimes/capers. The mob, mafia and gangsters must be left to Punisher to sort out, DD must do super-villains all the time now. I am aware that DD fights with super-villains but this must be commonplace now.

Matt must leave his luxury penthouse flat and move into a suburban house with his aunty as well, he needs to be humble, and not have all the trappings of a lawyers salary!

In reality, DD is a niche market, it does not want to be mainstream, if it was then it would lose everything that it has going for it and the rich history that the title has. Matt Murrdock and DD are not characters that instantly appeal to children, Matt is blind, when do you ever remember from your childhood wanting to be pretend to be a role model who is blind. MM & DD are disabled basically and this is what stops them from being mainstream, PP is a normal young kid in most ways, it is easy imagining yourself to be him.
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JR
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer, I think that some of the things you said can actually be achieved, but not to such a grand degree. While your suggestions are valid, I do not think it is necessary to simply rip off the better selling titles to make DD more marketable. I think this idea will only serve to alienate old readers and new readers alike. Look at it this way: Already, people are starting the FF/Incredibles debate. In the movie world, the FF are less marketable than a popular Pixar film. Does anyone want to see a rip off? No, people are already spouting venom about it.

I think one major change that is sometimes overlooked would be to have DD tie in with the rest of the Marvel Universe better than he does now. People are always talking about how some of the best DD moments are DD/Punisher or DD/Widow or DD/FF. I think a good representation of DD in one of the more popular books, such as Amazing Spiderman would serve to bring newer readers to the solo book.

Therein lies the tricky part. It would only serve to confuse readers to have a wise cracking acrobatic DD in a Spiderman book, but in the solo book have, erm, the Kingpin of Hells Kitchen. I think there needs to a be a great deal of communication for this to work, or even have the same writer: That's why Spidey was so cool and fun when he showed up in DD.

Strangely, even though I am against it, I think also that DD showing up in the New Avengers would be a revitalization point. Many people like Bendis, and after house of M, I think the Avengers will be another flagship title. Having a monthly appearance of DD in one of the best selling titles, written in a way that is true to character (I think if Bendis writes him like he does now, he will be the fan-fav of the group, much like Batman in the Morrison JLA days), many will pick up the book to read it, or at least the old trades as a starting point.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR wrote:
I do not think it is necessary to simply rip off the better selling titles to make DD more marketable. I think this idea will only serve to alienate old readers and new readers alike. …………. Does anyone want to see a rip off? No, people are already spouting venom about it.


Obviously, I had a bit on tongue in cheek mixed in with the proper serious responses, but for me JR if you look at it cynically, DD will have to make some major changes to go "Mainstream". I do not think that people will confuse DD and Spiderman and start to slag off DD because it has gone like Spiderman, if you look at the general changes that can be made that would still keep the title roughly as we know it then it will get more fans. More importantly, it will lose fans, some people like to follow "cult" or "niche" titles, as soon as they go "mainstream" they loose the essence that once held them unique and true.

I can think of two examples of this, firstly Eminem, he is now "mainstream", he isn't as in-yer-face as he was, he isn't shock anymore, because he is mainstream, my father buys his albums (true!). I cannot believe that all the hard-core rap fans that used to love him still like him as much now that he has gone mainstream and toned down.
The other is the X-files, this is my opinion, this was a great show for the first 3 or 4 series, then by that time it had got really popular and the show changed to go more mainstream. Everything that it had before, quirkly, darkly funny, weird, sort of went out of the window to go for more mainstream subjects for the masses.

But the point that you are missing is that it is all about marketing pure and simple, bringing DD to everyone's attention and the forefront of Super-heroes, it's not a case of ripping off others ideas at all, but looking at why they are popular and apply them to DD, but not lose the essence of the character. A big stumbling point that needs to be overcome is that DD is not a character that can be targeted at children audiences like what others can. It would be like making the Punisher mainstream, there are some thing that you have to admit are only going to be for niche audiences.

The Privateer wrote:
Marvel need to focus their marketing and sales on to raising the profile of Dardevil, they need to push the title, merchandise it. To help this they will need a good cartoon series and a successful film with high profile actors in it.

Cartoon series, easily achievable, as a starting point, it may be worthwhile to have DD work as a 2 man team with Spidey, to get to the attention of the mass audience, if they are clever about it, they could even bias the cartoon to DD a bit more, helping Spidey out of problems, DD is the stronger of the 2 heros etc.

The Privateer wrote:
The total emphasis on DD will need to change, he must leave Hells Kitchen and take on a bigger area to look after, think state defender not just local area hero!


Easy achieveable, leaving Hell's kitchen opens up a lot more adventures for DD to have, otherwise all these supercriminals will be all trying to start world domination from a small suburb of New York every month! Obviously DD is Hells Kitchen based, a lot of what is he is a terriotorial hero, he would lose a lot of the basis of what he is by moving him out, but that would broaden his scope, he can always go back.

The Privateer wrote:
DD must move away strictly crime related stories and move more in to super-villain stories and crimes/capers. The mob, mafia and gangsters must be left to Punisher to sort out, DD must do super-villains all the time now. I am aware that DD fights with super-villains but this must be commonplace now.


This for me is the critical part and is easily achievable, Spidey has Green Goblin & Doc. Occ, DD needs to get some regular super-powered enemies, these enemies are marketable too. Most of DD enemies have been faceless or 3rd tier crims, this is the key to super-hero part. Think Batman enemies, you think Joker straight away, think spiderman enemies, you would come up with G Goblin or Doc Occ I'm sure of it. But think DD, you get Bullseye and King-pin. Bullseye is great, he has some marketing potential, but King-pin doesn't have the X factor to make children want to buy the action figure, you don't get kids on the play ground wanted to play King-pin to be the baddie.
DD needs to get some great villains in order to cross into that mainstream divide, he needs to fight super-villains, this is what marketing is all about, good vs evil. For there to be good, there must be evil, for there to be a Good God and Jesus etc, there must be the Devil to protect us from, no pun intended. Thus with the marketing, we need DD to protect us from Bullseye and whoever else! Bullseye is great but we don't see him that often, this is what DD lacks, a real regular threat.

The Privateer wrote:
In reality, DD is a niche market, it does not want to be mainstream, if it was then it would lose everything that it has going for it and the rich history that the title has. Matt Murrdock and DD are not characters that instantly appeal to children, Matt is blind, when do you ever remember from your childhood wanting to be pretend to be a role model who is blind. MM & DD are disabled basically and this is what stops them from being mainstream, PP is a normal young kid in most ways, it is easy imagining yourself to be him.


The disability of DD / MM will be the hardest thing to overcome, I feel that it will be the stumbling block, because MM cannot live a normal life how we do I feel that this will alienate him from children and from making that big step to popular new heights. The lawyer job won't help, it is not an easily recognisable job for kids to understand, its not like a butcher or baker or policeman, fireman etc, I am not saying that these should change but it will not help to make that huge audience a reality.

For me JR, these ideas are not directly ripping off anyone, they are merely adapting them to suit DD circumstances, I could never draw conclusions from these ideas that would lead me to Spidey or Xmen etc, it is just using the trend and applying the formula to DD.


JR wrote:
I think one major change that is sometimes overlooked would be to have DD tie in with the rest of the Marvel Universe better than he does now. People are always talking about how some of the best DD moments are DD/Punisher or DD/Widow or DD/FF. I think a good representation of DD in one of the more popular books, such as Amazing Spiderman would serve to bring newer readers to the solo book.

JR wrote:
Strangely, even though I am against it, I think also that DD showing up in the New Avengers would be a revitalization point. Many people like Bendis, and after house of M, I think the Avengers will be another flagship title. Having a monthly appearance of DD in one of the best selling titles, written in a way that is true to character (I think if Bendis writes him like he does now, he will be the fan-fav of the group, much like Batman in the Morrison JLA days), many will pick up the book to read it, or at least the old trades as a starting point.


I totally agree, I said the following in my previous post:

The Privateer wrote:
DD needs the best writing talent on the title long term, he must be key and central to the big summer mini or maxi series events.


I agree about New Avengers, but isn't DD not going to be a regular in that now? If DD is, then it is a step in the right direction. He needs to be brought into that group of "Cross-over" or "Tie-in" regulars that always appear in the special event books, spidey, wolvie, etc. This is all about marketing again, they need the product to sell to back up the level of marketing they are giving it, once they get it noticed then it must be good enough or else people will not repeat buy. How many times have we bought comics that are utter crap, but keep on buying because you cannot have a missing issue? Marvel do not want this, they want us to be wishing our lives away until the next issue comes out and we all race to get it. Companies do not highly advertise and market crap to us, they do it for highly polished and competent products.

The Privateer wrote:
DD must have a real badass friend and form a team with someone, a moody bad ass is a winner, and his team-mate must have a secret past though.


I think that an unexplored idea to perhaps try and popularise DD is perhaps a crime-fighting partnership, I cannot off the top of my head think of a popular Marvel crime-fighting pair, perhaps this could be DD's way into the mainstream.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on JR, hit me with a response, I am ready .......!
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