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Brubaker's DD vision
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Brubaker's DD vision Reply with quote

Maybe this is just me and some Brubaker interview out there proves me wrong, but he's what I've noticed about Brubaker's initial goals and dreams as a modern DD writer: he doesn't seem to idolize Frank Miller. Volume 1 is full of DD writers who found their own voice, even post Born Again. (Nocenti, Chichester, Kessel, etc.) However, vol. 2 seems different. Kevin Smith had some serious idol issues with Frank Miller. In fact, I think his story cheaply copied a lot of Born Again (torture Karen, break down Matt, etc.). In any case, Smith's interview on the DD DVD proves his obsession for Miller and he even says something to the effect that DD will always be Frank Miller's book. Personally, I think any writer who feels that way is just looking for an excuse to not really develop the character or the book, but just emulate Miller's work over and over.
Of course, in my opinion, Mack couldn't have been more different! He wrote and amazing run on DD with his own voice and the best grasp on the characters of Matt and Kingpin that I have seen in at least the past decade of DD, until Brubaker.
Then, Bendis came along and he admitedly wrote a "valentine" to Miller, with Wake-Up. Don't get me wrong, it is an amazing story, but still, that Miller worship is there.
Bob Gale... whatever...
Bendis's main run on the book was a little more independent, but still I felt like Bendis had a serious case of the Born Agains. Sure, we got to see Matt prevail briefly in Hardcore and early King of Hell's Kitchen, but then Bendis took that back with a mental breakdown. All in all, for much of Bendis's run, I felt like he just beat Matt down and made him an incredibly dark character, with the same Miller idol worship that Smith had. (Don't get me wrong, I still love Bendis's run, now that the post-King of Hell's Kitchen stuff isn't coming out every month. Razz)

In Brubaker, I don't sense this Miller emulation that seemed so strong in Bendis and Smith. Good thing too because DD is NOT Miller's book. The Elektra Saga, Born Again, these are Miller's, but each new talented writer should make DD theirs, while maintaining the character. I think the variety that we saw in the 200-300 issues should be studied by upcoming DD writers. Here we are treated to O'Neil, Miller, Nocenti and Chichester, who were all excellent DD writers with their own voices. (Of coure, O'Neil may seem a bit like Miller, but I'll bet O'Neil's Batman work, etc., was a big influence on Miller's writing.)

For the first time in a very long time, I feel like we're seeing a Matt/DD that is not under the Miller shadow. I think that for too long we've seen the Man Without Any Shread of Hope. Don't get me wrong, put DD/Matt through hell and he can still be the Man Without Fear. Chichester did that better than anyone. I think we're going to see amazing things from Brubaker because he's not tied down by Miller, which is important because in my humble opinion, Brubaker is twice the writer Miller ever was! Razz

...geez! That's my 2 cents.
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Forrest
Lowlife


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. What I think a lot of writers like Bendis, DeMatteis and Smith don't get is that while Miller (in Born Again) brokedown Matt and DD, he very quickly rebuilt Matt/DD into the Man Without Fear in fine style. These other writers don't seem to realize the Born Again breakdown was a means to an end, not simply the end itself.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest, with this in mind, what do you think Brubaker will do with DD once Matt gets out of prison?
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the plot? I'm not sure at all. However, I think Matt/DD will much more of a fighter than in Bendis's work. What I mean is that up until his imprisonment, the key plot points seemed to take place around Matt/DD with him playing more of a reactionary/victim of circumstance kind of role. (Of course, Hardcore is an exception.) I think Matt will be much more responsible for changes in his life than outside forces, which has been the theme for years now.

Matt/DD is a ship out at sea and for some time now, the storm has been moving the ship. Soon, I think the captain is going to take control and fight through the storm. This is the cycle of Born Again and I think that's what we'll see with DD, relatively soon. Smith and Bendis played a long ~7 year breakdown and I think Brubaker will spend some years on the return of Matt as the Man Without Fear. Personally, I think we're already seeing that vibe with Brubaker's work. (Not just in Matt, but also Urich, etc.)
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only echo your sentiments, Forrest. As I noted in an earlier post, Matt has been subjected to one mental breakdown after another for an eternity now - and I strongly suspect readers are growing weary of it. Return to fundamentals (i.e., battling crime in one guise and representing clients in the other), Mr. Brubaker - as soon as possible.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I don't know if Brubaker is going to return Matt to that dual role of lawyer/vigilante, and also, I don't even know if that would be a good move in the immediate future. Still, I do think he will end this victim of circumstance/mental breakdown nonsense and return the character to that prizefighter fearless optimist that I for one always clung to as the core of the character.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
As far as the plot? I'm not sure at all. However, I think Matt/DD will much more of a fighter than in Bendis's work. What I mean is that up until his imprisonment, the key plot points seemed to take place around Matt/DD with him playing more of a reactionary/victim of circumstance kind of role. (Of course, Hardcore is an exception.) I think Matt will be much more responsible for changes in his life than outside forces, which has been the theme for years now.

Matt/DD is a ship out at sea and for some time now, the storm has been moving the ship. Soon, I think the captain is going to take control and fight through the storm. This is the cycle of Born Again and I think that's what we'll see with DD, relatively soon. Smith and Bendis played a long ~7 year breakdown and I think Brubaker will spend some years on the return of Matt as the Man Without Fear. Personally, I think we're already seeing that vibe with Brubaker's work. (Not just in Matt, but also Urich, etc.)


Interesting. While I got you where, what do you hope Brubaker will do with DD, plot wise?
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
I can only echo your sentiments, Forrest. As I noted in an earlier post, Matt has been subjected to one mental breakdown after another for an eternity now - and I strongly suspect readers are growing weary of it. Return to fundamentals (i.e., battling crime in one guise and representing clients in the other), Mr. Brubaker - as soon as possible.


Two things, first how you can restablish DD's secret without it seeming like a total cop out at this point?

Second, what would be the point of his secret ID now? Most of his supporting cast is dead, so he doesn't need a secret iD to protect them. Even before the events of "Out" look how many people knew DD's ID: Kingpin, Karen Page, Foggy Nelson, Elektra Spider-Man, Mr. Fear III (Cranston), Machinesmith (Starr Saxxon AKA Mr. Fear II) and that's just off the top of my head. I mean what's the point of DD's secret ID when almost everyone he knows, including a good portion of his villains, already knows he's DD?
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Master Meg - good to hear from you. Your point is well-taken. Reestablishing Matt's dual role will prove a difficult task (all the more reason why the secret identity plotline should never have been launched), but it HAS been done previously. If you recall, famed writer Karl Kesel overcame this hurdle in the aftermath of "Fall From Grace" (wherein Matt's identity was compromised), in a few brief panels (it was a SHIELD operation, etc., etc.)!! So it is certainly within the bounds of possibility.

Foggy's deceased? I beg to differ...
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
Hello Master Meg - good to hear from you. Your point is well-taken. Reestablishing Matt's dual role will prove a difficult task (all the more reason why the secret identity plotline should never have been launched), but it HAS been done previously. If you recall, famed writer Karl Kesel overcame this hurdle in the aftermath of "Fall From Grace" (wherein Matt's identity was compromised), in a few brief panels (it was a SHIELD operation, etc., etc.)!! So it is certainly within the bounds of possibility.

Foggy's deceased? I beg to differ...


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't reestablishing Matt's dual role
in "Fall From Grace" involve something like DD using the corpse of an evil DD clone created by the Magus during a cosmic crossover, to fool everyone into thinking he is not DD. That seemed like a cheap cop out to me. Also it this point wouldn't a lot of people believe that DD is Matt no matter what, after all the times he has been outed. Also let's consider current events in MU, SHIELD is no longer run by Nick Fury and the new director seems really cool forwards DD, so she would be unlikely to help DD reestablish his secret ID.

Also wouldn't a lot of villains try to kill Matt just in case he is DD, I mean what do they care if their wrong, that seems like something Bullseye would do.

Foggy is deasd for the moment, whether he appears alive later, remains to be seen, but he is dead for now and serves my point. Anyway, you forgot to answer my other point, considering that half the people DD knew alredy knew his secret ID, doesn't make it useless, even before the events of "Out".
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

Interesting. While I got you where, what do you hope Brubaker will do with DD, plot wise?


Well, Brubaker is such an amazing writer that I don't really have any specific hopes for broad plots and such. I hope that he makes Matt/DD much more in control and hardcore (a la Chichester's work, what little we have seen of the "missing year," etc.).

Honestly, I'm not big on seeing Matt return to law. I don't think that he must have the dual identity lawyer/vigilante thing for good story telling. Comic readers often seem so addicted to certain aspects of their favorite characters that they can't imagine change in these attributes, even if that change is part of a great story and logical in real life situation. Right now, Matt's imprisonment has been part of a great story (for the most part) and good story telling would not allow a speedy return to the way things were. Look at how long Nocenti dealt told amazing stories with Matt still technically not practiceing law. That was good storytelling, whereas the return of Matt from the Jack Battlin era was abysmal storytelling (whatever you may thing of the Jack Battlin stuff).

I hope Brubaker takes us on a swashbuckling DD journey that is not simply returning to a NYC law office for Matt's days, even if Matt/DD remains in NYC.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
If you recall, famed writer Karl Kesel overcame this hurdle in the aftermath of "Fall From Grace" (wherein Matt's identity was compromised), in a few brief panels (it was a SHIELD operation, etc., etc.)!! So it is certainly within the bounds of possibility.


Yeah, but if you ask me, that was terrible story telling. Putting the cat back in the back that time had much more to do with simply switching writers and pretending that FFG never happened. Such an attitude would be impossible, right now. Not only does Brubaker respect Bendis's work, but the story has been so elaborate and longstanding that cat can never go back in that bag that easily.

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't reestablishing Matt's dual role
in "Fall From Grace" involve something like DD using the corpse of an evil DD clone created by the Magus during a cosmic crossover, to fool everyone into thinking he is not DD. That seemed like a cheap cop out to me.


Razz

I actually thought that was a great idea. The doppleganger was great! How about when Matt couldn't detect it with any of his senses, so he flicked his own blood onto the doppleganger?! I have never seen a DD writer with better ideas and more potential than Chichester. Of course, his big downfall was often inaccessible prose in his big stories.

Honestly, I'd kill to see Chichester return to comics, even if he co-wrote with Lieberman, Brubaker, etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again, Master Meg. At the close of "Fall From Grace" in DD Vol. #1 #326 (correct me if that is inaccurate, Kuljit), Matt stages his own death via the use of Hellspawn's corpse. Subsequently, in DD Vol. #1 #353 (the beginning of Karl Kesel's vastly entertaining and underappreciated tenure), Matt publicly attributes his "death" to a SHIELD operation, and abruptly resumes his legal career. In ONE PAGE - ONE PAGE - Matt's dual role was restored, and the secret identity dilemma was resolved. Interestingly enough, this explanation did not appear to arouse much controversy among DD readers at the time. My point was not that SHIELD should intervene at this juncture. I am simply noting that the "secret identity" obstacle has been EASILY surmounted in the past. Normalcy (for lack of a better term) can be restored, and it should be.

Realism? Well, as I have frequently been reminded by others, it IS just a comic book...
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest - please elaborate further! Why do you have misgivings about Matt's role as an Attorney? Do you view it as a liability to the comic? I have always looked upon it as an integral part of the character's mythos. It gives DD a depth and substance that is sorely lacking in other comic book figures. From my standpoint, without the law, Matt is little more than costumed pugilist bent on revenge (or "Marvel's Batman"). Moreover, if Matt abandons the legal profession, how will he support himself?! Years ago I suggested that Vanessa Fisk could endow Matt with her estranged husband's billions, thereby enabling DD to wage his struggle (making him even more similar to Batman, interestingly). Is this (or something similar)the approach Brubaker should adopt? Just curious.
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Forrest - please elaborate further! Why do you have misgivings about Matt's role as an Attorney? Do you view it as a liability to the comic? I have always looked upon it as an integral part of the character's mythos. It gives DD a depth and substance that is sorely lacking in other comic book figures. From my standpoint, without the law, Matt is little more than costumed pugilist bent on revenge (or "Marvel's Batman"). Moreover, if Matt abandons the legal profession, how will he support himself?! Years ago I suggested that Vanessa Fisk could endow Matt with her estranged husband's billions, thereby enabling DD to wage his struggle (making him even more similar to Batman, interestingly). Is this (or something similar)the approach Brubaker should adopt? Just curious.


I agree that one of Daredevil's defining characteristics is his strong sense of justice. Justice has always been what most motivates him. Having said that, I'm not sure that having a strong sense of justice necessitates him being a lawyer.

I have a book about Frank Miller called Great Comic Artist File: Volume One: Frank Miller: A Work in Progress. He talks about Born Again and he says, "I'm uneasy with a superhero lawyer for any number of reasons. I feel that there is something to Matt's character that...when I was writing the series before I used that contradiction to create some tension in the series. Ultimately I think that it weakens the character. The best characters are always those with the simplest idea. The rest of the early Marvel superheroes generally had much more integrity in the characters than DD did, which is why he was always such a weak sister to the other books. But I do think that there is something there in his character that is very valuable and makes him a very, very good hero. What I've been doing is streamlining that -- strengthening that."

You can see why Miller left him as a short order cook at the end of Born Again. He goes on...

He's been too much of a Yuppie, making too much money for me to buy him as a common man hero. What I'm doing is taking him back to Hell's Kitchen and making him much more of a common man. He'll be much more in touch with what crime really does to people than he has been. The way his life has been running up until now the only real relationship he's had to crime in which he's really been aware of it is when he has clients and now he's going to be surrounded by crime."

You have to wonder how the series would have evolved had Nocenti left Matt at the diner. I don't think she made a mistake, having him open the free legal clinic with Karen. It only strengthened the role justice plays in Matt's life. I think, if it is impossible for Matt to regain his ability to practise law, he still has to demonstrate his belief in the judicial process and, above all else, justice, now matter what he does.[/i]
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