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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject:

Forrest wrote:

james castle wrote:

Forrest wrote:

...I don't think I have ever liked post-O'Neil Bullseye, including in Nocenti's work.

I hate you.

Because you liked Nocenti's Bullseye? ...I can see that, but I didn't care for the weird personality switch fight. It seemed too daytime soap opera to me. ...Still, it was Nocenti... Nocenti's daytime soap opera is miles above Smith's terrible summer blockbuster that will be in the $5 DVD bin at Blockbuster 2 months after release...

Well, just to clarify, I hate you not because I liked Nocenti's Bullseye (which I did) but because you spoke ill of Nocenti. HOW DARE YOU?

That said, I sort of get the soap opera thing. The switch fight was a bit of a stretch. As far as I'm concerned, though, it was sort of a high concept idea that came off at least okay in the execution.

Speaking of execution (or executions), surely you gotta like Nocenti's overall characterization of Bullseye. The moment where, after killing a mugger with a pen, he lifts up another pen and says "I've got another pen here" to the grandmother he just "saved" was pure genius. It was Bullseye at his psychopathic, giddy, evil best. That's the Bullseye we know and love/hate.

And now he's joining a government sponsered team. Sigh.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject:

james castle wrote:

Forrest wrote:

james castle wrote:

Forrest wrote:

...I don't think I have ever liked post-O'Neil Bullseye, including in Nocenti's work.

I hate you.

I still don't see why this a bad thniung for DD, he can fight an other psychopath for a while instead. Purple Man is already is pretty scarey since Alias and I always thought Mr. Hyde had some potenial. You say that those characters are lame, but remember Bullseye was lame before Miller revamped him, so i don't buy the whole alme arguement. besides the DD mythos should move beyond DD fighting Kingpin and Bullseye all the time.

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

And I don't see why you think variety of villians = good comics. Now, I'm not saying variety is a bad thing. What I am saying, though, is that a much more important factor in comics and story telling in general is consistency of character. Given that saying "maybe we'll get to see Mr. Hyde!" really is no answer to the fact that Bullseye is being ridiculously misused by Marvel.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject:

james castle wrote:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

Overall a variety of villains is much more interesting than using the same villains over and over again. An overused villain quickly becomes stale, no matter how interesting they are, i mean I like Magneto, but man I am sick of him. Besides this a DD board, I'm saying this may be good for DD, it will give the DD mythos a chance to go beyond just fighting Kingpin and Bullseye all the time. It may not be good for the Thunderbolts, but that's Warren Ellis' problem, not mine. I don't see how this bad for DD.

Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:59 am Post subject:

Quote:

Yeah, but that's not the problem. The problem is that Bullseye's character is going to be ruined.

Forrest
Lowlife

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

It may not be good for the Thunderbolts, but that's Warren Ellis' problem, not mine. I don't see how this bad for DD.

Agreed. I was commenting on the ridiculous notion of this Thunderbolts comic.

Francesco wrote:

Yeah, but that's not the problem. The problem is that Bullseye's character is going to be ruined.

Also agreed. I cannot bring myself to read a Wolverine comic (unless Rucka comes back Cool

), after the character's recent treatment. Like Wolvie, the Punisher, Morbius, and countless other comic characters, in the right hands (e.g. Miller), he is a powerful and interesting character, who helps sell issues. That does not mean that abandoning the essence of his character and senselessly throughing him in a marketing experiment will allow him to remain a powerful or interesting character. Bullseye is becomming more and more of a lame gimmick.
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!"

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

james castle wrote:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:26 am Post subject:

james castle wrote:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

james castle wrote:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

But you don't get what I'm saying, how is Bullseye being in the Thunderbolts is a bad for the DD title? It may be bad for the Thunderbolts, but I don't see how its bad for DD. Frankly the whole DD vs. Bullseye thing is really played out and cliched in the DD universe and having Bullseye running around in the Thunderbolts universe would mean that DD writers can't rely on him like a crutch anymore.

Besides I really see how this going to ruin Bullseye's character, Bullseye is a psycho assassin who likes killing people for money, the only difference here is he's working for the gov instead of mobsters. Now you can argue its illogical that the governemnt would hire psychos like Bullseye, Green Goblin and Venom or it ruins the concept of the Thunderbolts (having psychos rather than redeemed villains on the team), but don't see how bullseye is doing anything different here. Its same reason why psychos like Poison Ivy and Deadshot joined the Suicide Squad. Of course you could argue the new Thunderbolts is just the poor man's Suicide Squad as well.

Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Cool. A glitch in the Matrix.

Quote:

But you don't get what I'm saying, how is Bullseye being in the Thunderbolts is a bad for the DD title? It may be bad for the Thunderbolts, but I don't see how its bad for DD.

It is, because there's the risk that the character of DD's nightmarish arch-nemesis will be misinterpreted.

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

There's no such thing as the "DD universe" or the "Thunderbolt universe". There is only the Marvel Universe (well, and the Ultimate Universe (and MAX)).

Plus, I'm using the word "psychopath" in it's techinical sense. I.e. a person who is unable to understand the feelings or personhood of others. Someone who lacks empathy. You seem to be using it in the six teen year old girl "don't be such a psycho" sense. Which, you know, isn't helpful.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

Forrest
Lowlife

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject:

I'm with Master on this one, in that I don't think this really affects the DD title. Personally, it doesn't affect me, either, as I won't be reading Thunderbolts, or anything associated with it. Furthermore, I haven't liked Bullseye for a long time, so do with him what you will, Marvel, no matter how pathetic the plot twists and mischaracterizations. _________________ "Flash is back. Worlds will die again!"

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject:

james castle wrote:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

I know what a psychopath is, thank you very much. Your condescending attitude is annoying. Bullseye is a psychopath sadist, which is why he is a killer, there a lot of psychopaths who don't go around killing people because they are afraid of being punished. Your not answering the big question here, if Bullseye gets to kill people why would he care that he's doing it for the government instead of crime bosses.

As for the thunderbolts universe and DD universe, besides this, when has the last time time something from the thunderbolts title affected the DD title? Just because one is written in a manner that you don't approve of doeswn't mean it affects another title in another universe. Besides other title's like DC's Suicide Squad or the secret Society of Super Villains book has done stuff like this in before, taking villains from other books and put them in their own book, I don't see how those titles had a negative effect on the books they took the villains from. Unless your a thunderbolts before this happened, I don't see why your complaining.

james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D

Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

I know what a psychopath is, thank you very much. Your condescending attitude is annoying.

I'm only being condescending because you write and argue like a child.

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

Bullseye is a psychopath sadist, which is why he is a killer, there a lot of psychopaths who don't go around killing people because they are afraid of being punished. Your not answering the big question here, if Bullseye gets to kill people why would he care that he's doing it for the government instead of crime bosses.

The fact that he's a psychopath is more of a "why in the name of god would the government hire this guy?" point. I mean, if you can get past that little bit of ridiculousness then good for you but that's not the end of it. I think a bigger issue is the whole team thing. Bullseye is not a team guy (partially because he's a psychopath). Plus, Bullseye, the real Bullseye, likes killing lots of people. So if he was written in an honest way in Thunderbolts he'd be killing random nuns and stuff between team missions. I doubt that's gonna happen.

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

As for the thunderbolts universe and DD universe, besides this, when has the last time time something from the thunderbolts title affected the DD title? Just because one is written in a manner that you don't approve of doeswn't mean it affects another title in another universe.

Haha, I can't believe you referred to "another universe". Man, you really don't get it do you. As for you're "point": when has Thunderbolts effected DD? Well, never I guess. I think what happens in Thunderbolts would only effect DD if a core DD character (Foggy, Kingpin, Bullseye, etc.) were to be giving a starring role. OH SNAP!

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

Besides other title's like DC's Suicide Squad or the secret Society of Super Villains book has done stuff like this in before, taking villains from other books and put them in their own book, I don't see how those titles had a negative effect on the books they took the villains from. Unless your a thunderbolts before this happened, I don't see why your complaining.

It's shocking how irrelevant this crap about the Suicide Squand, etc. is. And you keep bringing it up for some reason. Okay, okay, you can name some DC titles starring villians. Congratulations (?).
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject:

The idea of Bulleye being in a team (of any sort) is the flaw here. He only acts on his own sadistic impulses. Bullseye simply does not conform to anything. Period.

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject:

james castle wrote:

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

I know what a psychopath is, thank you very much. Your condescending attitude is annoying.

I'm only being condescending because you write and argue like a child.

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:

It's shocking how irrelevant this crap about the Suicide Squand, etc. is. And you keep bringing it up for some reason. Okay, okay, you can name some DC titles starring villians. Congratulations (?).

Your calling me a child, first of all I think there are rules against directly insulting people on this board and you also debate in a condescending maner, you treat your own opinions as if their God's gift to man and treat anyone who disagrees with your opinions with contempt. You don't have a basis to criticize anyone's debating style.

You don't like me calling calling it DD universe, your arguing semantics not facts right now. Regardless for the most part the thunderbolts title has never affected the DD title and I don't see the loss of Bullseye for the time being as a big loss for the DD title. I brought up other titles for a reason like the suicide squad, that you seemed to ignore, other books have borrowed super villains from heroes to create a new book and it didn't have a negative effect on the titles those villains were taken from, so why are you complaining, are you a Thunderbolts fan?

Now as for bullseye not being a team player, if someone hired him (for a ton of money) to kill somone but would only hire him if he was part of a team assassins instead of working on his own, are saying he would say no because he would only want to work on his own? I find that a bit hard to believe. He has obession with DD, which would mean that Bullseye would want the sole credit of killing him and would be unwilling to help others kill him, but I don't see why that be the case for other targets.

As for MU US governemnt being stupid, well yeah that's true, having a team composed of psychos like Bullseye and Gobby is pretty dumb. But frankly the mU uS governemnt has been stupid for the past 20 years. How many times have created Sentinel robots only to have reprogramed by a super villain or have them decide that sentinels should take over the earth on their own. at least hiring Bullseye doesn't put the whole world in danger, unlike building Sentinels (remember Onslaught). So the MU US government was stupid long before they hired Bullseye and Gobby. Again unless your a thunderbolts fan, why are complaining?

Last edited by The Overlord on Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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