Daredevil Message Board

[Isaac]

As we all read in interviews with Bendis, he and Brubaker spoke a lot about the character and were planning to do something yet unseen. I don't really think it's all about Matt in prisson. I think the were preparing something weirder.

I just hope it doesn't have anything to do with:

-Karen death being a hoax (all the scent stuff).
Please! I don't know what that arrogant guy-who-thinks-he-can-write-comics had in mind as he killed her, but let's make something different out of Daredevil in the Marvel Universe (what has always been) and let's let Karen in the grave. I think, at the end it was a good decission to kill her, so the character can grow up. (Karen was there since #1 vol 1). A comic can be good enough without clones that play roles of superheroes' relatives. How much money have the bad asses spent on spider-man, instead of supplanting the US president?

-The Rose behind it (since that guy that used to be the Rose was even not blonde anymore, was some kind of depressed looser, has nothing against daredevil and, at last, since the guy is dead)

-Vanessa Fisk. That would be again a big mistake. I personally had thought that the Kingpin should have ceased to exist in the Marvel Universe after "The fall of the Kingpin". Has someone noticed how does he get older and younger, depending of what role he has to play? At last: please let kingpin in jail. No more storylines with the Fisks. They are done to death.

[Clayton Blind Love]

Vanessa killing off Richard, her own son, was such a classic Shakespearean-like scene. It was an amazing conclusion at that point. Richard's return would seriously diminish the outcome of that storyline and it would insinuate that Bendis run was nothing special and writers are free to change the results within the Bendis run.

Bottom line - Brubaker has too much respect for Bendis as a friend and a writer to alter a storyline that has an excellent chance to stand the test of time and be recognized like the Miller run. Bru won't mess with it.

Richard's return is not an option.

C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me

[rgj]

[Stanley]

I would completely buy a Karen return if they just said something to the effect of, "the woman who returns to Matt and says she has AIDS (and is later killed) wasn't Karen Page."

Easy. "What was she doing?" Who cares? Maybe she left and stayed gone, and nobody found her. Maybe she got back into porn, which'd be pretty sweet.

As for "what about her scent/heart signature/whatever else, wouldn't Matt know the difference" questions...well, yeah. You do have a point. But I submit that Daredevil the comic would benefit from a living Karen Page that comes back into his life and throws a monkey wrench into his and Milla's relationship. With this upside, I think fans would let you get away with explaining it. Nothing like a shoddy explanation to bring back a character that was killed in an equally shoddy fashion.

Also, as an aside, I really dislike Milla as a character and would dislike her as a person if she actually existed. She's whiny and helpless and self-absorbed. Like I need another Heather Glenn to kill off.

I guess I should've prefaced this by saying I have yet to read this month's issue. But this is still a pretty stand-alone opinion.

If I were running Marvel, Karen Page would come back and Norman Osborn would've stayed dead, I can tell you that right now. If Normie can be kicking around, COME ON. Karen Page embodies Matt's forgiveness and her later independence. She also is the victim of his weakest moment. Even after that, they still found each other. Sharing that much history, those two characters just plain belong together.

...Or am I the only one who's had a relationship like that?

Every once in a blue moon, I come with the content.

[Clayton Blind Love]

The way I see it, Miller is the one that actually killed Karen. Born Again had done Karen in as a character and Guardian Devil was just the formality that should of occured long before. Maybe I am the only one that sees it like that.

rgj (whew, my brain reprogramming effort is coming along ), nothing is sacred in comics. True. I over-stepped my point I think. It is simply that I don't buy Bru being the one to go into Bendis' run and already revive characters. I don't doubt that somewhere in the future some writer will do this. I do, however, doubt that this will occur at this point in time. Being so soon that is. Also, Bru wants to leave his own mark on Daredevil. He knows he won't be doing that by addressing characters knocked off during the Bendis run. All that will do is make Bru's run a part of Bendis' run. I believe Bru wants to separate himself from the Bendis' run and show that he is able to produce a work that will leave a mark on its own.

The Devil in Cell Block D was a brilliant arc for Bru to begin with. It was a "hand off" arc really. Bendis went there (taking Matt to prison) and Bru took him out of there. Now Bru is truly writing what he wants to with Daredevil. If he goes to the Bendis run now to revive a character, he does nothing for his reputation other than suggest that he can't write a Daredevil run without using what Bendis set up before him. I don't believe Bru would go this route. He is a better writer than that.

C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me

[Forrest]

[Forrest]

Stanley, I didn't even read your post, before I made my first post in this thread.

[Francesco]

[james castle]

[rgj]

[Slim Sandy]

Since alot of this talk seems to be about Karen...I've got a question. How would you guys have preferred her to die? Besides the fact that most of you probably wish it never happened, ...would you guys have wanted it to be built up more or something?

[Stanley]

Good question Slim, and I could answer this in two words, but I can see how one might think I was being mean.

My original response would've just been:

"Gwen. Stacy."

But let's get into it just a sec, hey?

Hero gets the girl.
Archnemesis kills girl.
Hero and Archnemesis actually battle to the death.

Come on! I mean, if you sold me a Karen Page story where she died and Matt and Kingpin fought to the death (never mind the fact that, again, they brought Normie back) where it was believable that we would in no way hold Matt accountable...then yeah. I would accept a Karen Page death.

But not for Mysterio. Not for "you're a B-list superhero". (How does dialogue like that get into a comic book?! Oh, so if I'm held up by a gunman, I should have discerning taste when I yell for help. "HELP! Oh, hey, Moon Knight. Could you go away, or at least run and get Captain America?" STUPID. STUPID. STUPID.)

It also helps the death when they consistently mention Gwen Stacy even today with reverence and great care...no matter where you fell on Sins Past. I know that some might think that they do this with Karen now, but they don't. It's a cheap ploy because she's ignored until it's convenient. "Oh, do you think the last 4 years of DD comics and the last two years of Matt Murdock's life might be because of his poor coping with the loss of Karen Page?" Yeah, I had to doubt the merit of that--there were no other signs that would jump you to that conclusion.

Back to my point, though--with Gwen Stacy, her death is instead another strand in a rich tapestry.

I'd want to see something like that. Not even the same things, just similar themes. But what the hell do I know; I'm just a f*cking engineer. Can't be creative, can I?

...For the record, none of this was directed at you, Slim. I guess this is just a touchier subject to me than even I knew.

[Blind Alley]

[fox_limbo]

I'm ba-aack!! (Yeah, that's right, you've been warned)

I've been essentially out of commission the last few weeks (actually, more literally than figuratively). I had been in the hospital for a while with some health issues... and I managed to miss posting my NFL predictions on the Off-Topic section of this board, dammit all to hell (thanks again, rgj, for putting that together again this year, by the way... even if I'm cut from the list. lol)

Anyways, enough about all that... what we have here is a great discussion. Some very, valid points had been hit on in all of this. Good stuff.

But in this sort of thing, it always comes back to Karen Page and Milla Donovan, doesn't it? It sure as hell seems that way. And, honestly, that is grounds for some good discussion and debate. So, here I am sticking my two-cents in, for better or for worse.

I'm a fan of the Milla Donovan character (and yes, that is even minus the flaunting of her lingerie collection). I think she has been pretty well developed, to this point, as a viable character in the Daredevil / Matt Murdock mythology. That said, she hasn't been fleshed out (uh, no pun intended) as completely as she should be (i.e. we have not seen the "Hell's Kitchen Advocate" at work, we've only been told about it... such a textured detail has been skimmed over, as it was pointed out earlier in this thread; that point, as much as it has been overlooked by Bendis and, to this point, Brubaker, it is a legitiamate reason that Matt Murdock would fall for her as he had... both these characters are personifications and advocates of Hell's Kitchen, fighting to defend the place they live and love... her intrigrity alone warrants his affections). I am waiting to see how Bru handles / deepens Milla Donovan. It was discussed earlier, and they are spot-on, that Milla (to this point) has represented what it would be like to be in a relationship with a person like Matt Murdock. Her roller coaster of emotions (and yes, this includes the "whiny" damsel in distress moment) are, arguably, as close to anyone else's response if they were caught in the same circumstances. Lest we forget, women are emotional, moody, sensual creatures that, at times, change their minds and then second-guess those mind-changes (and that part of the reason why we love 'em, as frustrating as it tends to be at times). With all that, Milla Donovan has been potrtrayed remarkably well.

Still, I am not short-changing the importance of Karen Page in the Daredevil mythology. She and Matt Murdock are ying-and-yang. They balence each other out. Without one or the other (as shoddy as it was to take Miss Page completely out of the equation), the ballance falls out of whack. That is why I don't have such a huge problem with Karen's death (regardless if it was a B-List... or even Z-List villain that orchestrated the whole thing, although, it is poetic that Bulleye was involved --and, damn, doesn't that make great superhero / supervillain fodder, even if it copies the whole Elektra Nachios thing?). It makes sense that Matt would be "lost" without Karen. They (i.e. Bendis) came close to outright saying it with the whole "emotional breakdown thing", which was more of a cheap explanation, all things considered; instead of something that should have been explored more deeply. It had not been handled as well as it should have been, with the care and creative investigation as it deserves. But the fact remains, Matt is lost without Karen. The balance had been broken.

Just, as Stanley, pointed out, Peter Parker was after the loss of Gwen Stacy.

The idea of a Karen Page return is a daunting high-wire act. I believe Karen should stay dead (what's done is done), but as it has been pointed out in this and other threads, nothing is sacred in comics. I am a bit apprehensive of Karen Page coming back, because of the way her death and Matt's mourning over her had been handled. Matt went to her funeral and played the piano. That's it. As important as Karen Page was to Matt and to the entire Daredevil mythology, the meloncholy aftermath of her death should have been handled with more deliberate care. Seeing as how it wasn't, a return of Karen Page would be as shallow as her death.

Still, Ed Brubaker has my complete faith. There a couple of small things I disagree with (the portrayal of Iron Fist as Daredevil and, as pointed out in David Wallace's review, the crimson tights of Daredevil making an appearance in Europe given the state of things with him being outed, and all the crap, and it is utter crap, with "Civil War" --I've stated my argument against it months ago, as others have done so, the "Civil War"-bashing has become rather trite, but it doesn't change the fact that it is absolute crap-- and that Matt shed his clothes to be Daredevil in public, havoc or no havoc, regardless if it was a nod to the Stan Lee stories or not, it still is a bit of a head-scratcher; despite all that, and really it is small gripes in comparison to the much larger picture), I believe in Ed Brubaker. If Ed wants to bring back Karen (and not just her smell), I am sure he will do so in an intelligent, and even emotional, way.

[Francesco]