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| Do you want Karen to return (e.g. never have been killed)? |
| Yes, but only if there is a very tight story behind it. |
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20% |
[ 6 ] |
| Yes, and I don't care how! :P |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
| No, because there is no need to bring her back. |
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53% |
[ 16 ] |
| No, only because it could not be pulled off well. |
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20% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
Comon, everyone at least has to admit that it'd be cool if Miller wrote Karen Lives Again. |
I'd rather it come from Brubaker. 
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Stanley wrote: |
(Pete and JC often lock up with each other. I wonder why I've never tangled with either. Not that I want to, but after 3 or 4 years, you'd just think percentages would catch up.) |
Hey, you wanna rumble, just say something silly.
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Well, I think we all know that's not gonna happen. No wonder our paths haven't crossed. |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Cute for james to call it quits for both of us while I'm away for the computer. Until someone for whom I have a modicum of respect for (pretty much everyone else here) says 'nay, no more', I'll continue in my sophisticated way. hey, you don't have to read this stuff, you know!?
| rgj wrote: | | I'd love to continue reading the back and forth jc and Pete have going (it's damn interesting too) Let it die on it's own until it's only Pete and jc going at it (always good stuff) |
Haha! Well I suppose you can call some of our exchanges good stuff . I admit, kicking his ass has even been fun at times. But 'fun' is really the wrong term. Personally I see it more as pest control.
Talking of which..
| james castle wrote: | | Oh, so now it's "yeah, your quote is there". What happened to the "James is a liar and made the whole thing up"? |
| james castle wrote: | | I was referring to...the "oh snap, the quote exists" thing. Look, you came out and point blank said I was a liar and that I'd made up the quote. Quote materializes. You lose. |
| james castle wrote: | | why are you going so far out of your way to try to complicate the fact that you were so very, very wrong about the quote? |
Hey, anyone here spot a guy running around mumbling something about a quote?
| james castle wrote: | | ...then KM backed me up and now you're trying to pretend you were really just saying something about the context in which I brought it up. You didn't mention context before the quote was verified. |
Oh, yeah. JC. All in the same frickin post as well. All after I've already admited the quote exists. All after conceding he was right about the fact it exists. All after I've tried to move things on by putting Millers thoughts about Elektra in with this thread about Karen.
If this were an actual discussion would it really be as bad as this?
jc: Miller said this
me: I don't think so, son. Could be wrong i suppose, but you have lied before.
jc: I'm not lying. He did too!
me: where and when
jc: (silence)
tick..tock..tick..tock
KM: Here.
jc: WWWWAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGHHHHHHHHHH! !!GOTCHA!
me:Hmmm.
Jc: GOTCHA! AT LAST you SOB! GOTCHA! GOTCHA!
me: yep, he said that
Jc: GOTCHA! GOTCHA!
me: yea, James. The quote is there (Thinks: 'God, he's a bit...hysterical)
Jc: GOTCHA! Me and my mate Frank Miller! GOTCHA!
me: yes, Miller said that..(reads rest of interview he's never seen before)
Jc: HaHA! YES! GOTCHA!
me: (yawn!)
Jc: (opens his fifth concescutive beer) GOTCHA!
me: But y;now reading this, your point about the 'dead is dead' viewpoint on this thread...
Jc: Yissir! GOTCHA GOOD!
me:..isn't really backed up by Millers point about Elektra. He..
Jc: Wha! Shutup!Shutup! I gotcha! The QUOTE!
me: yes, the quote is there..
Jc: And I GOTCHA!
me: and apart from that you got jack. See Elektra and Karen...
Jc: Ha HA. Don't mess with me. I gotcha...
me:.. in the scheme of things, there really quite similar. If Miller says Elektra is dead, what makes you think he'd agree with you about Kar...
Jc: (Thinks: I had him! I HAD HIM! Why is he keeping on writing these big words and stuff. My head hurts) Err GOTCHA
me: Yes, the quote is there. But Kar..
Jc: Umm..how is Mrs Pete?
Pause while Pete is away from computer.
Jc: (Thinks: Quick. Now's my chance.) Hey Stanley. Don't ever mess with me, or I'll GETTCHA too! Everyones sick of me, er, us now so quick, back on topic everyone.
I realise I've played my part in this wonderous example of the finer arts of debate, and to everyone here (apart from JC, who remains a liar and probably a thief as well), deepest apologies. I did try.
| Quote: | | "Context" is your sad little red herring designed to draw attention away from the fact that you squarely called me a liar and then got caught out. This crappy double speak about context can't change that. |
See above. Except to say context, rather than a sad little red herring designed to draw attention away from THE QUOTE, is rather an attempt to stick with the context of this thread.
| Quote: | | I went through that thread. No lies. Some truly hilarious jokes about your wife but no lies. How does the private message thing amount to lying? I message you and say "let's just leave each other alone" you say "piss off, no deal", I keep responding to you. Where's the lie? Now, maybe you consider some of the wife stuff a lie. Like, I haven't seen her lately so I don't know if I really would take to (or on) an island but me guessing that I might isn't a lie..... |
The really sophisticated part of the piece. This is so, so many things..
1. Proof that although your right about the quote, I've still got to you. See, even when your right about something, you have to push it too far, ruin it, try (and fail) to get to me.
2. Ohh, the wife thing, yeah. It's great that you've highlighted parts of the Live8 thread yourself. Anybody new to the board or not even aware of a Hall Of Fame can check it out for themselves and see you in your real colours. I'll let others be the judge of what's written there. Of course, by the stage you resort to mentioning my wife there is only probably me, you and Privateer reading. Don't remember him thinking you were 'hilarious' at the time much. Of course, you knew it didn't get to me then. Why should it now? Fool.
3. Some posters that have been here a little while have started coming out of their shells and produce interesting reads. Previous lurkers or once in a while posters write some really good stuff. Most have opinions and express 'em well. In people who've been here a while, you can see those opinions, ideas, and their writing itself, develop...grow. Everyone has moved on, except JC. You are stunted, stuck in a rut, the 'Groundhog Day' poster on the MWOF mesage board. Harking back to insults traded, what , well over a year ago? Same old, same old..
4. I never said 'piss off'. Most people here can read. they can see for themselves if they wish. Liar.
And calling you a liar brings me full circle, friend. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | Bendis did go to lengths to show that Urich is traumatized by his past, etc. Still, many of us readers felt that his behavior near the end of the arc was quite uncharacteristic, particularly his lack of ingenuity and backbone, relative to what we had seen from him over the past few years. (E.g. see Out, the first Pulse arc, etc.) The most striking question is why did he cooperate so completely with ratting out the Night Nurse's location? He definitely had the ability to deny his knowledge of her location |
I agree on the fact that he was easily fooled (for an investigative journalist of his kind), but about his lack of backbone, Bendis clearly showed that Mr Davis was literally obsessed, and wanted to get Murdock no matter the cost. He could've slowed down Mtt's tracking to some little extent, but the fact is that Davis knew that he knew, and he would've surely acted by illegal means to have him confess Murdock's location.
Also, I don't think there have ever been supporting characters who have the guts to slap Kingpin in the head. Heck, even the FBI director was intimidated by Kingpin's presence that time. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | the fact is that Davis [FBI director] knew that he [Urich] knew [the Night Nurse's location] |
Not to get into nitty gritty fan-boy details, but I don't know about that. The article that Urich wrote about the Night Nurse never gave any indication that he knew the location of her shop.
| Francesco wrote: | | Also, I don't think there have ever been supporting characters who have the guts to slap Kingpin in the head. Heck, even the FBI director was intimidated by Kingpin's presence that time. |
Touche! I loved that scene!!!
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | The article that Urich wrote about the Night Nurse never gave any indication that he knew the location of her shop.
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This is true. But it is also true that the article did not mention that Ben knew not of the location either. The assumption goes both ways. The assumption has to lean towards him knowing simply because the interview took place. That alone is the only weight to indicate such and the writer made it so.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | Not to get into nitty gritty fan-boy details, but I don't know about that. The article that Urich wrote about the Night Nurse never gave any indication that he knew the location of her shop. |
Forrest is dead right here. Not only did Ben not mention the location, but even if he had written that he new the location he could have easliy taken the FBI to some abandoned location (c'mon, he hangs out with DD and he's a city reporater, Ben knows these places) and insist that the location had been there. No, instead, Ben spills the beans and it all leads up convinitently to where Matt exits the NN's clinic with only his DD pants. Look, the Murdock Papers was one of the most forced arcs ever and kind of bent logic towards that end (Matt in prison as per agreement of Bendis and Bru). The plot of MP was full of amazing, unexplained coincidences. Like how in the world does Elektra find Matt in a hotel with Milla in New York City? Registered under Milla's name! Elektra didn't even know who Milla was or that she was married to Matt. Yet another case of broken story logic to have the arc end in a Murdock arrest. I'm not even going to go into the most illogical way in which Elektra "betrayed" Matt's senses to KP. What? Where? Ridiculous. And, of course the fortuitous timing of the Hand's healing ritual, the fact that Elektra walks a shot Matt many blocks on a street sidewalk, and forgets her telepathy abilities (or cell phone) to call the Hand. Oh, so many holes. The only cool thing about MP was how the FBI director betrays KP and throws him in jail. But, I guess that was more of a Brubaker idea.
rgj |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Clayton wrote: | | The assumption has to lean towards him knowing simply because the interview took place. That alone is the only weight to indicate such and the writer made it so. |
The writer made it so because he needed a Matt arrest to finish the story, and had Ben, a "never disclose your source" city beat writer ask "how far?" when they told him to jump. It's funny how Ben didn't mention in any article that the FBI, with the KP's help, tried to assassinate Daredevil and gave the assassin a full pardon. You guys remember that Ben was there, no? Ben had more leverage there than Bendis wanted to acknowledge 'cause then there would be no Matt arrest.
The truth is that Bendis should have just written that the KP knew the location of the clinic, afterall it is his city. But, for some mad reason, Bendis wanted a Ben betrayal.
"Dantooine. The Night Nurse is on Dantooine." -what Ben should have said.
rgj |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, the Kingpin should of known where this Night Nurse was located and, you know what, he probably did. Playing the game the way he did to force Ben's hand was priceless. You may believe it to be out of character for Ben to give it up so easily. I didn't think so. I think the consequences are pretty obvious and CLEAR had Ben not given the FBI what they wanted. Jail. Blacklisted. Lost job. Unable to support family. With the FBI going to extreme levels to arrest Matt Murdock, Ben knew that they would do the same to him or maybe worse. Ben was in no position to deny a dangerous FBI director that would make everything I suggested a reality.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Clayton Blind Love wrote: | | I think the consequences are pretty obvious and CLEAR had Ben not given the FBI what they wanted. Jail. Lost job. Unable to support family. With the FBI going to extreme levels to arrest Matt Murdock, Ben knew that they would do the same to him or maybe worse. Ben was in no position to deny a dangerous FBI director. |
Definitely disagree. You're talking about the same FBI that couldn't put case against Wilson Fisk. And, they had him for a year? (Which is kind of scary that they can hold you for a year without some kind of "evidence." And, heck, why was he in custody? Cause Daredevil beat him up and crashed him though a window of a bar?). There is no way, no way, the FBI could "prove" Ben knew the location. How?? And, agian, where is the article on the FBI hiring professional assassins??
rgj |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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They had no case against Wilson Fisk because they are not supposed to. This is the Kingpin. The master manipulator. The man has always carefully planned his criminal empire never to work against him if it offered tangible evidence in the hands of the law. To suggest that Wilson Fisk and Ben Urich are in the same position when faced with the law (regardless of how corrupt it could be) is a false assumption. You even suggested that the Kingpin probably knew the location of the Night Nurse himself because this man knows everything. To which, I even agreed. Surely, you can see why the FBI had no case against him. Wilson and Ben are a different breed. Don't even insinuate that Ben has that level of foresight. He doesn't. That itself would be out of character. Not a fat chance. Ben saw a crooked FBI director facing down on him and reacted the only way he could. He was in fear and the fear got to him. It makes him appear realistically written. Its why many Daredevil fans like him. He is an ordinary man that makes him extraordinary to read in the pages of our great book.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Even though its only a comicbook, I couldn't help but feel that Bendis had something to say portraying the FBI in this manner with the post 9/11 homeland security laws. Laws intended to deal with terrorism being used to fight the more known common criminal.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Clayton Blind Love wrote: | | They had no case against Wilson Fisk because they are not supposed to. This is the Kingpin. The master manipulator. |
Exactly, so basically he had no "reason" to give up Murdock and truth be told, the FBI had no legitamite reason to hold him for over a year. A lawyer would have freed him easily. (Hey, jc is a lawyer, could the authorities hold you for over a year without having any evidence to put you in jail?). Agian, we're kind of getting side tracked, there is no way, no way, that the FBI could prove Ben knew the location of the NN's place. Clayton, you are a moderator on this board. You may know where KM lives. I could ask you to tell me where he lives. You could tell me you "don't know." What could I do? (especially in that, what?, hour that Matt got shot and got healed by the hand).
rgj
p.s. Child's Play runs circles around "Parts of a Hole."  |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: |
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40 Bay Street
Toronto, Ontario
M5J 2X2
Can I have my issue 7 (vol.1) back now?
C.
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Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | Clayton Blind Love wrote: | | I think the consequences are pretty obvious and CLEAR had Ben not given the FBI what they wanted. Jail. Lost job. Unable to support family. With the FBI going to extreme levels to arrest Matt Murdock, Ben knew that they would do the same to him or maybe worse. Ben was in no position to deny a dangerous FBI director. |
Definitely disagree. You're talking about the same FBI that couldn't put case against Wilson Fisk. And, they had him for a year? (Which is kind of scary that they can hold you for a year without some kind of "evidence." And, heck, why was he in custody? Cause Daredevil beat him up and crashed him though a window of a bar?). There is no way, no way, the FBI could "prove" Ben knew the location. How?? And, agian, where is the article on the FBI hiring professional assassins??
rgj |
I completely agree with Clayton, instead.
You say the FBI had no way to "prove" that Ben knew the location?
Well, I totally agree with you.
But do you think that this would've stopped them to squeeze Ben to death, making his and his family's life an hell by "not so legal" means if they only suspected that he knew?
No.
Kingpin knew this.
Ben knew too.
Ben had no choice. The only thing he could do was venting his anguish on Kingpin and calling him "a nightmare". |
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