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DD's "armor costume" "era"
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How did you feel about the armor costume stories?
Rocked!
33%
 33%  [ 5 ]
OK
33%
 33%  [ 5 ]
Terrible!
33%
 33%  [ 5 ]
other
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 15

Author Message
Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: DD's "armor costume" "era" Reply with quote

What do you kids think and why?

Personally, I think Fall from Grace and Tree of Knowledge were brilliant! Their problem/brilliance was that they don't read like most comics. Fall from Grace is actually better the second time I read it because Chichester overhypes his big stories and it gets distracting. However, once I already know what will happen, the story is enthralling!

The only part of this armor costume era that I really hated was the way it ended. J.M. DeMatteis didn't know what he was doing. He was thrown into the book due to Marvel business reasons, and he jumped on the story with [spoiler:3de531c1bf]a spontaneous DD mental breakdown.[/spoiler:3de531c1bf] It was ridiculous!

Anyway, I dug it and I really wish Chichester could have stayed on the book long enough to bring back Matt Murdock properly.
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rgj
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loved Fall From Grace? Tought the armoured costume rocked? Thought J.M. DeMatteis didn't know what he was doing? Used the word "ridiculous"?

james?? C'mon, no fair posting with two different names! Smile

While FFG and (to a greater extent) TOK were really disappointing for me, I think that, overall, Chichester was an amazing writer. I think issues #292-300 were just brilliant and rivals anything great that ever graced the pages of DD (yes, that means classic Miller stuff). I have said this before, but no writer (and I mean NO writer) ever articulated Matt's hyper-senses the way Chichester did. With D.G. you always knew that Matt was blind and his window to the world was something special and often times fragile. No one has ever written Matt's senses better than Chichester. And, I loved that Chichester wrote Matt as a man in control of things (which, of course, DeMatties ultimately underminded) and not just blowing in the winds of unfortunate circumstances and sorrow.

rgj
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
...I have said this before, but no writer (and I mean NO writer) ever articulated Matt's hyper-senses the way Chichester did. With D.G. you always knew that Matt was blind and his window to the world was something special and often times fragile. No one has ever written Matt's senses better than Chichester. And, I loved that Chichester wrote Matt as a man in control of things (which, of course, DeMatties ultimately underminded) and not just blowing in the winds of unfortunate circumstances and sorrow.
rgj


Exactly! If Bendis writes DD into New Avengers (I'm still betting the mystery Avenger is Iron Fist or Moon Knight), I hope he learns from Chichester's amazing articulation of DD's supersenses. Half the things Batman does with gadgets DD can do with his body! I love the way Chichester made DD a human forensics lab. His abilities are definitely under utilized.
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james castle
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Run, Forrest, run. Woowoo. As predicted, I'm with Forrest. Fall From Grace was great. It was great. DeMattis' "fix" was ridiculous, childish and stupid. In response to rgj: I bet the reason that my new best friend Forrest used the same word I do concerning the whole DeMattis mess is because it actually was objectively ridiculous.

Um. So that's my ridiculously predictable 2 cents.
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Daredevi1
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Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i really liked FFG and the black costume. it`s true, all of marvel characters were having a "costume crisis" through those years, but the change DD made had perfect sense. His old red costume was destroyed ( i really liked issue 2 when he fights silver sabre), and he nedeed extra armor and weapons (c`mon the billyclubs-staff-nunchacks rocked!!!)
DG chichester did an excelent job because the story was really great and it brought back elektra in a really excelent twist and now we even have her in a movie.
The costume was awesome but i had the trouble that only scott mac daniel was able to draw it perfect.(maybe ron wagner too)
TOK wasn`t that good but much better than what came later ( pahantom`s Humanity , Kruel??, di matteis, etc) but by that time DD was down the drain around even close to fall beneath the 100 most sold comics until the kevin smith-quesada relaunch.
I read an interview of DG chisterter a while ago in this site telling why did he had to leave DD and what he was expecting to do with him to bring him back to the red costume around #350, well in my modest opinion , instead of reading all the bad writing that came after TOK , i think that the Chisterter-mc daniel team was much better.
And for the "bubleboy" DD in new avengers i rather have him in the secret war costume.
and why i like the DD-New avenger idea? because is so much better to have him twice an month than once a month.

Razz
DD
Razz
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daredevi1 wrote:
and why i like the DD-New avenger idea? because is so much better to have him twice an month than once a month.

Razz
DD
Razz


Exactly! As I've said, if DD's in the New Avengers, I'll buy two copies: one for the bathroom. Razz

I'm just glad I'm not a huge Spidey or Wolverine fan (like I am for DD), then I'd have to buy a dozen books per month just to keep track of the character!
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Flying Blind


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the costume looked pretty cool, but i think the story (Fall from Grace) was bad...

i didnt even finish reading that book.... it was like torture... i couldnt bear to read the last issue... there were TOO MANY characters in the story, you couldnt tell what the hell was going on (but that was partly because of the art as well), and the story in general was just bad.... not my taste...
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Slim
Flying Blind


Joined: 01 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really liked FALL FROM GRACE.

It didnt feel like a daredevil story in many places, which creativley is a GOOD thing. And i liked the costume. I wouldnt have liked it to be a permanent change, but for the purposes of the story i liked it.

I dont know anybody who would argue that what followed it, with the 'fix', worked. It should have been done differently.

But i think both writers -as with all others- were cut down by the Miller problem. Damned if you do, damned if you dont; change the formula and you're messing with a classic charachter and disrespecting continuity, follow the formula and you're a derivative imitation.
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Darediva
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slim wrote:
.

But i think both writers -as with all others- were cut down by the Miller problem. Damned if you do, damned if you dont; change the formula and you're messing with a classic charachter and disrespecting continuity, follow the formula and you're a derivative imitation.


You hit the nail squarely on the head with that statement, Slim.
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slim wrote:
I really liked FALL FROM GRACE.
But i think both writers -as with all others- were cut down by the Miller problem. Damned if you do, damned if you dont; change the formula and you're messing with a classic charachter and disrespecting continuity, follow the formula and you're a derivative imitation.


I definitely agree with your general idea about the problems of writing for a old character like DD. (I think this is much of the problem Bendis is currently facing with New Avengers.) However, I disagree that this has much to do with J.M. DeMatteis's arc. That arc was just bad writing with no grasp on the character (either the new Jack Battlin, or the old school red DD).
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the gael
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 29 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in fact I don't like the whole chichester's stuff. No, I HATE the whole chichester's stuff.
Yes, his vision of the radar sense was impressive, but what about the story ?

the black armour wasn't bad, but it didn't look what a devil should look ( thanks to McDaniel, DD seems to have a rat head ! ).
The whole Jack Battling story was infamous. For no reason ( yes, you wil say " Matt identity was exposed " but come on, who could believe that a blind lawyer can be a masked vigilante after what he and ben did in the end... ) Matt faked his death and become that Jack Battling.

What a terrible idea ! DD is about law and justice. Matt was and IS that, Jack Battling wasn't. I hope that Bendis has learned from this mistake.

Look at the whole chichester run : every episode, DD fight the villian of the week with some guest star ( the more guest star, the best the book is for D G ). Venom appeared one or two issue and disappeared after an unfinished fight that DD was near to win. Has this any sense ?

I am a huge Miller, Nocenti and now Bendis fan, but what chichester did nearly killed DD for me. It wasn't the same character and hasn't any interest.

DeMattis' "fix" was ridiculous, childish and stupid, Yes, but for what I have seen, it was impossible to bring back Matt Murdock and the red costume after what chichester did.

Have I forgotten something ? Oh Yes, chichester killed for no reason Glorianna O'Breen !
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Kuljit Mithra
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the gael wrote:


Have I forgotten something ? Oh Yes, chichester killed for no reason Glorianna O'Breen !


Yes, that whole Kruel storyline was something to behold.

This timeframe, from after Humanity's Fathom (or Fathoms of Humanity if you prefer), was not a highlight of DD.

Changing editors, changing imprints... it's a wonder so many of us stuck through it.
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Forrest
Lowlife


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the gael wrote:

Have I forgotten something ? Oh Yes, chichester killed for no reason Glorianna O'Breen !


Didn't Alan Smithee kill her? I'll have to double check.
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Kuljit Mithra
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
the gael wrote:

Have I forgotten something ? Oh Yes, chichester killed for no reason Glorianna O'Breen !


Didn't Alan Smithee kill her? I'll have to double check.


Yes, you are both correct. Smile

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/messageboard/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=238
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Forrest
Lowlife


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the gael wrote:
" Matt identity was exposed " but come on, who could believe that a blind lawyer can be a masked vigilante after what he and ben did in the end... )


I think that's an interesting statement because if an event like the outing of DD occurred in the real world, tons of people would believe it! Look at the last US presidential election (and pretty much politics in general): so many people on either side would constantly site strange and difficult to support notions intended as an attack on the other side. People buy this stuff! (The masses aren't always logical.) Especially if you're living in the Marvel Universe, where Galactus and Silver Surfer duke it out in NYC, telepathic suggestion is real, and mutants of every kind can be found almost anywhere. The idea of a blind guy fighting crime doesn't seem so far fetched. People wouldn't just say, "He's blind! Duh!"

That is another problem with the "fix" to Chichester's final DD stories; Matt would have been hounded until the day he died with questions about being DD. This is an area where immediate-post-Chichester writers failed big time, but Bendis is shining. The way Bendis writes the impact of Matt's (second) outing as DD is exactly how it would happen!
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