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Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains?
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Francesco
Underboss


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Actually, I think, when you really think about it Robin is a lot like Robbie (from the Daily Bugle newsroom) because their names sort of sound the same. So, that's one similarity there.

But, it's not just about Daredevil and Batman. Think about Superman and Spider-man. They both have "man" in their names. Plus, they both have secret identities (well, they both used to) and...they're both superheroes. It's like it's the same character.

Finally, has anyone else noticed that both Wonder Woman and Storm are women? It's like they're the same character.


Hmm. I can't see the "funny side" in this failed attempt at sarcasm.

By the way, Mr Hyde doesn't even have the "split personality" theme when you think about it.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
james castle wrote:
Actually, I think, when you really think about it Robin is a lot like Robbie (from the Daily Bugle newsroom) because their names sort of sound the same. So, that's one similarity there.

But, it's not just about Daredevil and Batman. Think about Superman and Spider-man. They both have "man" in their names. Plus, they both have secret identities (well, they both used to) and...they're both superheroes. It's like it's the same character.

Finally, has anyone else noticed that both Wonder Woman and Storm are women? It's like they're the same character.


Hmm. I can't see the "funny side" in this failed attempt at sarcasm.

By the way, Mr Hyde doesn't even have the "split personality" theme when you think about it.


What are you talking about? You don't understand sarcasm? Mr. Hyde? Who is this?
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So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
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Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villai Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
Interesting side note: If you ever get a chance to read the first appearence of the Golden Age Flash (Jay Garrick), notice how strikingly similar this comic is to Amazing Fantasy #15. In fact, the more I read old Gardner Fox comics (Flash and other DC characters), the more I respect Fox at the expense of my respect for Stan Lee. I'm starting to view Stan Lee as what many claim Shakespeare to be, someone who took other creators' good ideas and revamped them. Still, I love Stan Lee but he may be giving way to Gardner Fox and Will Eisner.


Interesting points, Forrest. I've read very little Golden Age stuff apart from Batman and Superman. I think there is certainly a discernable link between the success of the early DC work and most of what followed (superhero genre especially). Bill Finger makes Batman a bitter guy whose actions are shaped by the murder of his parents. Lots of Marvel characters follow in a similar vein (Spidey (uncle) and DD (father) spring instantly to mind). DC have instant sucess years later with a group of superheroes banded together (JLA). Stan Lee sees this and together with Kirby comes up a few months later with Fantastic Four #1.

I think this is a simplistic reading of what went on, however. Comic books have always jumped on bandwagons/copied lots/ invited calls of plagiarism. I honestly can't comment on Gardner Fox and his influence on Amazing Fantasy #15, as I haven't read any Gardner Fox. (one day). But I have read Amazing Fantasy #15, and I know that from the first splash page with Ditko's gritty portrayal of the 'isolated bookworm' Parker with that strange shadow hovering that Lee and Ditko were making history.

Superman made history. But he was influenced by diverse sources ranging from Popeye to Doc Savage and Buck Rogers to Charles Atlas. Batman made history. But wasn't there another millioniare playboy who used to dress up in tights before Bruce Wayne, called the Phantom? So Peter Parker gets bitten by a 'radoactive spider'. The FF had been bombarded by 'Cosmic Rays', Bruce banner by 'Gamma Ray's'. Matt later falls fowl of a 'radioactive cannister' falling from the back of a truck.

To call such stuff 'original' would be foolish. Nearly all 'superhero' comic books are derrivative of certain sources. They are also run as a business. Even Miller, at the end of the day, admits that his job is to 'get you to buy the next one'. But I still maintain that Lee was the first to instill a certain element within his books that make them distinctive from anything that came before. Read FF #1 now and it's dated, one dimensional, but all the stuff on the shelves in the local comic book store owe it a great deal.

Some people here have called Lee a 'hack'. Has he ever been a 'hack'? Sure, writing for Marvel/Timely/Atlas since the 1940's, if Martain Goodman saw some coming trend that might catch on, Lee would churn it out. Like a lot of comic companies back then. There is always a certain quota of 'action', the plot is sometimes thin (heck, sometimes there isn't a plot) He might have even churned out FF#1. But something changed with that comic that made the industry become almost respectable in mainstreem eyes. I think he, along with Kirby and Ditko, shaped the industry in such a way that it's still recognisable as such today. And along with these people, he created all of these characters. Siegal and Schuster had one hit. (The Spectre is great but he's no 'hit') Bob Kane and Bill Finger ( I think) the same. Lee? I've lost count.

I know I'm preaching to the converted here, as you hold the guy in such high esteem as myself, so in closing I'll just say I don't really class Eisner in the same bracket. The Spirit was originally a strip for newspapers, and A Contract With God was Something Else Entirely. An original? Yeah, but don't show Orson Wells any of his books Very Happy
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fallfromgrace
Flying Blind


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the similarities between Batman and Daredevil come in more simplified form:

(a) Both characters were revitalized by Frank Miller around the same period of time

(b) Both do not actually have "super-powers" per se (DD's radar sense actually compensates for his blindness, so shouldn't be considered any special advantage here)

(c) Further to point (c), both Daredevil and Batman derived their main strengths through sheer dedication, training and learning throughout their childhood. And of course, due to a traumatic loss of parent(s) when each one was just a kid

(d) Both Batman and Daredevil are the top two of my most favourites characters Laughing

Simple enough for you guys?
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Acerbus
Flying Blind


Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also interesting to point out, when discussing the Batman / Daredevil similarity: For the entirety of the 1980's, on into the 1990's, virtually every team which worked on Daredevil went on to do Batman immediately after. In fact, one of the only teams which I can think of that did the reverse, is currently writing and drawing the book right now (And doing a great job, might I add.)

Think about it - Immediately after Gene Colan's staggering run on DD, he gets hired away by DC and does Batman, followed by Frank Miller, David Mazzuchelli, Denny O'Neil, and even going so far into the 90's as Scott McDaniel.

If it's any way, I think Batman was actually playing catch-up with the grit and nastiness of Daredevil following Frank Miller's run, or else I don't think DC would have had to hire all those ex-DD creators immediately after they finished on the book.

I mean, Detective comics started to get dark in the 70's, thanks to another art god by the name of Neal Adams, but it wasn't until Frank Miller started showing hookers and drugs and booze and stabbings that Batman really turned into the 'Dark Knight' as opposed to 'Holy Rehashed Plots, Batman'.

Nightwing also turned into a totally different character in this period, leaping from rooftops in a dark city, holding twin night sticks in hand. You have to remember, DD actually sold really well in the 80's, so there's a good chance that DC was trying to hop on that bandwagon.
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Pete
Fall From Grace


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acerbus wrote:
Think about it - Immediately after Gene Colan's staggering run on DD, he gets hired away by DC and does Batman, followed by Frank Miller, David Mazzuchelli, Denny O'Neil, and even going so far into the 90's as Scott McDaniel.

If it's any way, I think Batman was actually playing catch-up with the grit and nastiness of Daredevil following Frank Miller's run, or else I don't think DC would have had to hire all those ex-DD creators immediately after they finished on the book.

I mean, Detective comics started to get dark in the 70's, thanks to another art god by the name of Neal Adams, but it wasn't until Frank Miller started showing hookers and drugs and booze and stabbings that Batman really turned into the 'Dark Knight' as opposed to 'Holy Rehashed Plots, Batman'.

Nightwing also turned into a totally different character in this period, leaping from rooftops in a dark city, holding twin night sticks in hand. You have to remember, DD actually sold really well in the 80's, so there's a good chance that DC was trying to hop on that bandwagon.



Very good point.
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train
Guardian Devil


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice point acerbus...it's ironic that while the Batman Universe was playing "catch up" in the 80's, it left DD in the dust in the 90's..in particular, Nightwing. When DD was languishing in the armoured costume and posing as Jack Battlin, the Nightwing crew of Dixon and McDaniel were churning out some wonderful stories. While I still collected DD on a monthly basis, Nightwing was where I went to get my monthly Daredevil fix.
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