|
Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
|
The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Batman |
 |
|
| Forrest wrote: | | Born Again wrote: | | Why does everyone say DD is like Batman? I think Batman is more like Iron man. |
A moment of clarity!!! 
As a Daredevil fan, I am cursed to hear the "DD is Marvel's Batman" sort of arguments until I get the feeling that I am one of the very few people who has ever actually read a DD comic! 
You're right, Iron Man has more in common with Batman than DD does. I would say that Iron Fist, Fury and Punisher have at least as much in common with Batman as DD does.
If I ever had to say _______ is Marvel's Batman, I would say that of Nick Fury. |
I don't get it. How do you read so many DC comics and yet avoid all the ones with Batman in them?
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Batman |
|
|
| james castle wrote: |
I don't get it. How do you read so many DC comics and yet avoid all the ones with Batman in them? |
You know I'm right. With the gadgets, no powers, extreme paranoia/planning, ties to almost every other hero, etc., Fury has more in common with Batman than our buddy, DD.
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Actually, I guess the joke is that I've read hardly any Batman. Outside of Miller and The Killing Joke I've read very little Batman. That being said, the Batman I know and love would never, ever, ever be part of the Justice League. It just doesn't make any sense. So maybe Batman writ large (i.e. how I assume you're read him) is as crappy as Iron Man.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?
Last edited by james castle on Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| james castle wrote: | | Actually, I guess the joke is that I've read hardly any Batman. Outside of Miller and The Killer Joke I've read very little Batman. That being said, the Batman I know and love would never, ever, ever be part of the Justice League. It just doesn't make any sense. So maybe Batman writ large (i.e. how I assume you're read him) is as crappy as Iron Man. |
I read lots of Batman. The only thing I could suggest with respect to "Batman - the team player" would be to think of this along the lines of "keep your friends close, your enemies closer" in a way, but in reverse. Waid wrote a great story not too long ago (last 5 years sometime) called Tower of Babel in JLA. It is revealed here that Batman has a contingency plan in place to take out each member of the JLA should the time arise. Sure, he could probably figure this information out all on his own, but by being a member of the JLA he would be able to gather a great deal of intelligence.
I am a huge fan of Batman as a solo hero. My favorite Bat stories are in this manner.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Batman |
|
|
| Forrest wrote: | | james castle wrote: |
I don't get it. How do you read so many DC comics and yet avoid all the ones with Batman in them? |
You know I'm right. With the gadgets, no powers, extreme paranoia/planning, ties to almost every other hero, etc., Fury has more in common with Batman than our buddy, DD. |
That's JLA Batman, he is similar to Iron Man, but solo title Batman is similar to DD. There are two different versions of batman running around nowadays. That's the problem with Batman, JLA he can outsmart alien gods and can invent insane sci fi level tech, but in his own title he has problems dealing with thugs and psychos with gimmicks and still uses a grappling hook. batman makes no sense at this point. It be like DD joining the Avengers and was smacking around Kang and Ultron on Tuesday and having trouble taking some street level villains on Wednesday. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tangent regarding the two different types of Batman (JLA & solo/Gotham):
Even in the accepted solo Batman, one of his major attributes is being a control freak. Also, he has seemingly unlimited intellect, motivation and resources. So, it makes sense that he'd want to have widespread control and influence outside Gotham and the most logical way for a superhero to gain such control and influence is through the Justice League.
I'm not discounting anyone's uneasiness over the JLA Batman; I'm just trying to level this common argument with a different take.
Back to DD:
For the most part, I see Matt as too connected with Hell's Kitchen and his law practice to give that up for a superhero team. He's all about the little guy. I think that makes him fairly incompatible with a superhero team position. However, recent developments in Matt/DD's life may mean that he doesn't return to the same cozy life in Hell's Kitchen...
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr Slaughter
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
My two favorite characters growing up were Batman and Daredevil. I've always found the two similiar but would never say anyhing like, "Matt is the Marvel version of Bruce. The only real similarities are both are vigilantes and both are doing this because of dead parents.
_________________
yUP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hylozoii
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 148
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr Slaughter wrote: | | My two favorite characters growing up were Batman and Daredevil. I've always found the two similiar but would never say anyhing like, "Matt is the Marvel version of Bruce. The only real similarities are both are vigilantes and both are doing this because of dead parents. |
I'm going to jump out there and say that I disagree that Matt is a vigilante because of the death of his father. He already had the makings of a hero before the murder, evident in the fact that he saved that person from the truck. I'm not even going to suggest the WHY, but Matt was trained by Stick (at least in MWOF) before his father's death. Maybe he became a hero because Stick trained him to be a member of the Hand. Maybe he became a vigilante because of bullies picking on him as a child. Or the death of his father.
I've got a great idea for a DD miniseries though. What happened to Matt from the time after he took out the Fixer to the time he went to college? Who took him in as an orphan? There must have been at least a 3-4 year gap before he went to college and got his law degree. It's like the missing Jesus years.
Anyways. DD is both different and similar, but you could say that with any two vigilantes. Except Speedball and Batman. Physically they are the same. In mood, they are the same. But Batman is a control-freak who plays on a team, who has a sidekick and numerous partners, while DD is more of the meditation-peaceful solo fighter. Now that I think of it, Batman is riddled with contradictions. Batman was always at his best when he was fighting crime and dodging the police. Now both DD and Batman walk around the police station as if they have a badge. At least the Feds are after DD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr Slaughter
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
I disagree if Jack Murdock isn't killed in one of those what if scenarios, I highly doubt Matt chooses that path.
_________________
yUP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hylozoii wrote: |
I've got a great idea for a DD miniseries though. What happened to Matt from the time after he took out the Fixer to the time he went to college? Who took him in as an orphan? There must have been at least a 3-4 year gap before he went to college and got his law degree. It's like the missing Jesus years. |
...if you buy into the MWOF/Miller continuity. According to the original continuity, Matt is an adult before Jack's death and he is already a lawyer when he takes down the Fixer.
On another note circulating on this thread, I don't think Jack's death was a prerequisite for Matt becoming a superhero. With the event causing his blindness, his exceptional academic performance, his superabilities already present, etc. I think Matt had all the makings of a superhero, prior to Jack's death, which was a catalyst, not a cause for Matt --> DD.
Contrast this with Bruce Wayne, who had nothing other than wealth, prior to his parent's death. In this case, the death of his parents was more of the cause than the catalyst.
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Forrest wrote: |
...if you buy into the MWOF/Miller continuity. |
Indeed, MWOF rewrote DD's continuity, but, in the end, why should one be forced to consider the original continuity? Let's not forget that Batman's character, as it is currently seen, imagined and accepted (even when he's compared to DD), is itself a character filtered through a major revisitation and retconning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Francesco wrote: | | Forrest wrote: |
...if you buy into the MWOF/Miller continuity. |
Indeed, MWOF rewrote DD's continuity, but, in the end, why should one be forced to consider the original continuity? |
Why should one be forced to consider Miller's retcon? MWOF did leave us with those missing years you mentioned, at which time Matt may have been legally forced to have a guardian. While engaging, the whole mini appeared very sloppy, in my opinion. (We should have seen All Star Batman coming, eh? )
Aside from the occasional MWOF reference by other writers (Quesada, Kelly, etc.), I've always viewed MWOF outside continuity (e.g. subtle Elseworlds style). It provided no compelling reason to change DD history, other than the prestige (sp) of the author, who by that point was beginning to let his reckless ego get the best of him. (Again, we should have seen All Star Batman coming.) In fact, the story was never originally meant to be a comic in DD comic continuity; it was a screenplay.
Especially with the -1 flashback issue and DD:Yellow, I view only small portions MWOF to be in continuity. [Specifically that 1) Jack roughed up people for the mob and 2) Matt rampaged through the brothel, knocking "that woman" out the window .] So, again, why should one be forced to consider the Miller/MWOF continuity?
There is some overlap, but at this point in DD continuity, I think its up to personal choice if you subscribe more to the original origin or the Miller/MWOF origin.
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Of course, but I just wanted to point out that batman's character is generally considered - without much debates or doubts - very different from this (column on the right). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sandman
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've only skimmed some of the messages here in this section, so forgive me if I repeat something that was already stated.
One of the big differences is that ultimately Batman is a pessimist and DD is an optimist. Batman always prepares for the worst in any situation. -It's why he prepares files on fellow heroes to take them down. His parents death scarred his psyche in a way that makes him feel that the worst case scenario can/will happen and that he must always prepare for it. (And when you think that way and have Batman's levels of logic -the only people who can surprise you are the insane who don't follow logic. --i.e.- batman's rogue's gallery)
DD on the other hand, is much more optimistic. He displays faith that things will work out for the best. -For him villains don't need insanity to surprise him, just a willingness to commit unthinkable things.
Based solely on the villains that are necessary to be a counterpoint to their views, DD is more realistic. We're more likely to see a 'Kingpin' styled criminal than we are to see someone who uses a ventriloquists dummy or laughing fish. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sandman wrote: | I've only skimmed some of the messages here in this section, so forgive me if I repeat something that was already stated.
One of the big differences is that ultimately Batman is a pessimist and DD is an optimist. Batman always prepares for the worst in any situation. -It's why he prepares files on fellow heroes to take them down. His parents death scarred his psyche in a way that makes him feel that the worst case scenario can/will happen and that he must always prepare for it. (And when you think that way and have Batman's levels of logic -the only people who can surprise you are the insane who don't follow logic. --i.e.- batman's rogue's gallery)
DD on the other hand, is much more optimistic. He displays faith that things will work out for the best. -For him villains don't need insanity to surprise him, just a willingness to commit unthinkable things.
Based solely on the villains that are necessary to be a counterpoint to their views, DD is more realistic. We're more likely to see a 'Kingpin' styled criminal than we are to see someone who uses a ventriloquists dummy or laughing fish. |
Good points!
Matt's personality reminds me of Hal Jordan's (Green Lantern), in this regard (fearlessness and optimism). ...Matt also reminds me of Green Arrow (optimism and activism).
_________________
"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
