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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | If you look at it from the right angle, The Murdock Papers gives great indication that Elektra could have set up Matt. (E.g. She pretend to have helped create the non-existant Murdock Papers. Then, she set something up to make sure that Matt would be at the Night Nurse's, while Fisk/FBI director got that location from Urich.)
Even if she didn't set him up, I don't recall any resolution to the scene in which she killed those men in Chicago. Did I miss something? |
I think the scene of Elektra killing those guys was just a set up scene for Elektra to read the paper that Matt was in trouble. If Elektra was "in on it" (as Forrest postulates) why would she need to read that paper to know it was going down? It doesn't matter who those guys were, they are irrelevant. Fact is, there is no way Elektra would have betrayed Matt to KP (for what, cash? for heaven's sake she leads the Hand now, she doesn't need Fisk), and her relationship with Matt, while not perfect, is not that of enemies. For Christ sake, she didn't betray Matt during Miller's run when she worked for KP, why would she do it now?? Oh, and if Elektra is "in on it" why bother taking Matt to the Night Nurse?? Shouldn't she just have left him there bleeding on the street until the Feds came? C'mon Forrest, where's your logic?
Its ridiculous to think that Elektra would betray Matt in the AWSOMEly crappy Murdock Papers. It's obvious that Bendis initally wanted Echo do this (what with the all of a sudden changed covers going from Echo to Elektra), but the powers that be changed it to Elektra.
rgj
p.s. Kate was cool. But, I doubt anyone would bring her back. That's too bad, she'd be a great character in DD. Still, I'm holding out for Matt to marry the Night Nurse!!
rgj |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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"The Murdock Papers" was an exceptionally poor arc - perhaps the most continuity-challenged in modern times (eclipsing even Bendis' previous works). Elektra's alleged actions were inexplicable, and inconsistent with past depictions. And Matt surrendering to the authorities - ! A man who has fled the law countless times?! Leaving Foggy and Milla defenseless?!
So many women in Matt's life have perished - Karen, Heather, Glorianna. Whoever resurfaces in the months to come had better excercise caution. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I hate agreeing with Stephen...so I won't. As far as I'm concerned the worst part of the Murdock Papers was that scene where the FBI Director (or whoever) is arguing with somebody and it's painfully obvious that the one and only point of the scene is to somehow make sense of the fact that the FBI is all the sudden trying to bust Matt. Same with the SHIELD scene. SHIELD has known who Matt is forever. No matter how much weasling around Bendis tried in the Murdock Papers the whole thing just didn't really make any sense.
You could tell that Bendis was on the defensive from the beginning going "no, no, it makes sense, I promise, just listen".
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | I think the scene of Elektra killing those guys was just a set up scene for Elektra to read the paper that Matt was in trouble. |
You're probably right. It's been almost one year since I read that issue.
| rgj wrote: | | Its ridiculous to think that Elektra would betray Matt in the AWSOMEly crappy Murdock Papers. It's obvious that Bendis initally wanted Echo do this (what with the all of a sudden changed covers going from Echo to Elektra), but the powers that be changed it to Elektra. |
I completely agree with you on the current explaination of how the Murdock Papers got so messed up, from the Elektra angle. However, this need not be the eternal explaination. Another writer could latter explain the appearent continuity errors in the Murdock Papers. For example, Geoff Johns is the master of cleaning up other writer's messes and has been doing so in terrific style with his recent work in Flash, Green Lantern, JSA, etc. ...I can't think of a DD example, right now. An example similiar to this would be Joe Kelly's DD/Deadpool Annual that dealt with the mess (in my opinion) created by Miller and DeMatteis, regarding Matt as a murder.
At some point, it would be nice to see a writer fix the continuity errors in The Murdock Papers. The best way I can think of to do so would be having Elektra somehow in with Fisk and/or the FBI director, in the Murdock Papers.
Then there's the issue #65 Dr. Strange error. I'd love to see this fixed via revisiting Smith's run. (It would be nice to learn that there was someone beyond Mysterio behind all that...)
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | Holy crap. I'd like to register an early vote for this thread to be eventually posted in the Hall of Fame. I forgot I had even posted on it and then just ducked in to see what Stephen had said and....what the hell? You guys can't be serious.
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Ah, we're just spit balling, speculating for the sake of fun. Quit being such a buzz kill.   (I'm joking here.)
Seriously though, kidding aside, though wild speculation never hurt anyone, so relax. Comming up with theories about characters that are "out there" is just fun, there's no harm in it. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | The best way I can think of to do so would be having Elektra somehow in with Fisk and/or the FBI director, in the Murdock Papers. |
Don't you get it? MP basically said that Elektra DID work for KP, post coming down the mountain. And, that after given a second chance by Matt (and Stone) she "betrayed" Matt (funny, though, she then goes to Matt's aid). The problem 1) that Elektra would not do this to Matt, especially just to benifit Kingpin. Their, far from perfect, relationship is at a point where Elektra would not betray Matt. 2) Elektra came down her mountain AFTER Kingpin was beaten by Matt in LAST RITES. He was just coming back to power when a) he was blinded by Echo and b) he was dethrowned by Sammy Silke. For God's sake, there was no TIME for Elektra to betray Matt even if she would have wanted to (and, again, SHE WOULDN'T).
Look, Bendis, screwed up. And, really, Bendis also confused "people knowing Matt is DD" with "people know Matt has hypersenses." He married the two revelations. Somehow Bendis made the assumption that just because one finds out who Matt is (and that he is blind) that he MUST have hypersenses. C'mon, in a universe filled with mutants, magicians, and cosmic powered people you can't just assume he's got super senses. Bendis had SHIELD and Nick Fury know about Matt's senses (he did not know in LAST RITES, folks!) he had Luke and Danny Rand know Matt's identity and senses (never was that shown anywhere before). Bendis had Melvin Potter know Matt's identity (don't know about the senses with him) yet it was never shown before Bendis that Melvin knew who he was. Bendis just wrote stories where he just basically had people know all about Matt without it ever being shown how they knew. The first writer to do something like this was Garth Ennis where he had the Punisher know Matt's identity and superhearing (he incapacitated Matt with a sonic device) WITHOUT expliantion. And, Bendis just pulled a monkey see, monkey do. But, anyway, I'm rambling.
rgj
The only way to explain MP is that Kingpin hired the Purple Man to kiddnap Elektra and he got her to talk. Still, as I've said before, just cause Elektra tells KP that Matt has hypersenses there is NO WAY to quantify the extent of their powers. There is no way for Elektra to know how to "bypass" them, cause she doesn't know how they work. So, that's still crap.
By the way, I have no idea how to "clean up" Bendis assertion that KP hired Dan the bomb (before Elektra came down her mountain!) and told Dan how to "bypass" Matt's senses. Seriously, Bendis made tons of errors with the senses.
Where have you gone Dan Chichester*
rgj turns his lonely eyes to you (ooo, ooo, ooo)
What's that you say, Dan Chichester?
Joey Q has crapped the DD universe away (hey, hey, hey)
*D.G. Chichester: King of writing Matt's senses!
rgj  |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: Of course... |
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| Of course, it was subsequently revealed that the so-called "Murdock Papers" did not exist! Why did Elektra contend that they did? Why would she make such an unfounded, baseless claim? What did she stand to gain? There is no logical explanation! And there is no excuse for Bendis' utter ineptitude. This story was riddled with inconsistencies, and it was a testament to Bendis' failed tenure. It was a tenure that began with an unoriginal, hackneyed plot (the secret identity revelation) and ended in disarray. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | By the way, I have no idea how to "clean up" Bendis assertion that KP hired Dan the bomb (before Elektra came down her mountain!) and told Dan how to "bypass" Matt's senses. Seriously, Bendis made tons of errors with the senses. |
...Well...
Devil's Advocate here: The way I read Born Again, Fisk took a fair amount of time planning Matt's downfall. He may have used means other than Elektra for this (because we know he didn't use her while she was "dead"/on the mountain)... (Even if he didn't quantify Matt's senses, he may have gained a qualitative understanding and built a sound proof cover to the bomb. E.g. some standard means of sound proofing.)
Or he may have just told his associates that he knew how to bypass Matt's senses but instead he simply made sure the bomb would go off when Matt was away and very distracted (which happened and was all the explaination we needed for years...).
I'm not trying to actively defend Bendis's last couple years on DD; I'm just providing an alternate to the glaring reality that Bendis became almost passionately lazy, about half way through his DD tenure. Why provide this alternative? It would be nice to reread Bendis's DD and not get a headache from each issue 57, onward.
| rgj wrote: |
[i]Where have you gone Dan Chichester*
[. . .]
*D.G. Chichester: King of writing Matt's senses!
rgj |
Singing to the ...choir on this one! I would do darn near anything to see Chichester return to DD! 
P.S. I don't blame Quesada for Bendis's lazy DD writing. ...No, he was the editor-in-chief... he is partially to blame.
P.P.S. I guess I don't mind the major direction Quesada has approved for DD (outing, imprisonment, etc.), I just hate the poorly thought out writing that resulted. If someone like Brubaker had been writing DD, after issue #50, we would have far superior versions of Murdock Papers, etc.
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | Devil's Advocate here: The way I read Born Again, Fisk took a fair amount of time planning Matt's downfall. He may have used means other than Elektra for this (because we know he didn't use her while she was "dead"/on the mountain)... (Even if he didn't quantify Matt's senses, he may have gained a qualitative understanding and built a sound proof cover to the bomb. E.g. some standard means of sound proofing.) |
Fisk thinks that Matt is faking being blind in Born Again. Plain and simple. And, that would be an easy assumption to make and the logical one. Fisk had NEVER known about Matt's senses. The only time he apparently knew was when Bendis said he knew how to "bypass" them in MP and, Decalogue, referencing, amazingly enough, (during) Born Again. You can play devil's advocate all you want, but KP knowing Matt's senses is crap.
And, look I'm not saying Bendis's overall run was bad. It was pretty good. But, the man made mistakes, especailly with the senses. And, Bendis basically (without explanation) had everyone (Marvel heroes and villains) know Matt is DD and that he had supersenses even before he was outted. Me thinks Bendis didn't read much DD since Miller's first run. And, it showed.
rgj |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| During Miller's run (when Elektra supposedly aided The Kingpin in collecting data on DD), if you recall, Bullseye approached Fisk and contended that DD was blind attorney Matt Murdock. The Kingpin dismissed the notion as utterly absurd, and questioned Bullseye's sanity. Obviously, Fisk was not aware that DD was a blind attorney endowed with hypersenses at this juncture. Bendis' command of DD history was quite poor, and his tenure on this comic is grossly overrated. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephan wrote: | | During Miller's run (when Elektra supposedly aided The Kingpin in collecting data on DD), if you recall, Bullseye approached Fisk and contended that DD was blind attorney Matt Murdock. The Kingpin dismissed the notion as utterly absurd, and questioned Bullseye's sanity. Obviously, Fisk was not aware that DD was a blind attorney endowed with hypersenses at this juncture. Bendis' command of DD history was quite poor, and his tenure on this comic is grossly overrated. |
Obviously I don't agree with the "grossly overrated" business (everything up to 50 was fantastic and I liked The Widow and Decalogue) but I think we can agree that MP was a mess. I think from now on everyone should pretend that MP was actually only one page long and that page was blank and simply said "and then Matt went to jail". That way we all win.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | You can play devil's advocate all you want, but KP knowing Matt's senses is crap. |
I tried and I think it's just futile. ...there is just no way to defend the continuity errors in the last half of Bendis's run...
| rgj wrote: | | Me thinks Bendis didn't read much DD since Miller's first run. And, it showed. |
Exactly. It's that Elektra one in MP that kills me. Why didn't he just use Echo, even if she was in New Avengers at the time? She could have gone to Japan as Ronin and then come back to NYC... I will never understand what happened to Bendis around mid/late 2004, when all his comics went downhill (DD, USM, Secret War, etc.) and he essentially gave up on his strongest titles (Alias, Pulse, etc.) to write titles like New Avengers, House of M, etc.
| Stephan wrote: | | During Miller's run (when Elektra supposedly aided The Kingpin in collecting data on DD), if you recall, Bullseye approached Fisk and contended that DD was blind attorney Matt Murdock. |
I thought Bendis was implying that Elektra aided Fisk, after Born Again. If he was refering to the Elektra Saga, that is equally ridiculous.
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Sandman
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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back to the subject of the woman from Matt's past . . .
Sister Maggie seems to be the choice that most everyone is running with here, but as much conjecture has been thrown around already, allow me to play Devil's Advocate (pun not intended)
-Not that I really am pushing for a Civil War tie-in, but couldn't they have Natasha come in and play off of the whole registration aspect? If you look at recent X-Factor, the team was asked to register by one of Jamie's dupes who worked for SHIELD.-It wouldn't be a far cry to send Natasha to Matt. -I'm not overly familiar with their past relationship, so I'll ask -would she be the type to sign him up just to help put an end to the circus has become?
-This is nothing but absolute, wild spitballing here. Don't particularly think I'd see it happen, but would it even be remotely possible? |
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Sandman
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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woah-major typo!- Sorry! That question at the end of paragraph two should have read:
would she the type to sign him up just to help end the circus his life has become? |
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