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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sandman wrote: | I actually read The Hood mini-series when it came it out. I thought it was pretty enjoyable and wanted to see more of the character. I picked up Beyond! simply on the grounds that The Hood was in it as well.
While Beyond was enjoyable, it didn't accurately portray The Hood as he had been in his mini. It seemed that all he did in Beyond was shoot at things lamely and miss.
So I've had hopes that The Hood would be used again, and admittedly, I'd like to see the character succeed -just because I enjoyed the mini so much.
-BUT - I can't see any way at all that he should become the new master villain. -He has wits compared to no-brainers like Constrictor and Shocker, but to put him up against THE AVENGERS!?!?!?! Even being a fan of the character, I absolutely cringe at Bendis' new ideas for him. He's a villain with the desire to be an up and comer, but this is out of his league. It's like saying Foggy upholds the law so he should lead SHIELD. |
After doing a litle research on this character, I would agree, the Hood seems like a clever petty criminal, not a criminal mastermind. I like the idea of a Kingpin of super villans, but I'm not sure this guy should be it. I think there are better options to fill this position.
Personally though I like the idea of a super villain Kingpin, I wonder who would have been a better option. I always thought Don Fortunato was a smart cookie and seemed like a worthy rival of the Kingpin (unlike bottom feeders like the Owl), but he is not a super villain.
However Count Nefaria has powers (he is almost an evil Superman) and has been a crme boss plaguing the Avengers since the 60s. He seems like a better option and could give the New Avengers way more problems then the Hood, but DD would have no chance against that guy. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting concept. A "kingpin" of supervillains will always have a major weakness: crazy villains, of which they are TONS!
A usual crime boss/kingpin gets his way through power and fear. So, he is susceptible to anyone who is either more powerful and/or not afraid. Think about how many psycho villains out there cannot be threatened on any real level because they don't have any people or things in their lives they care about.
...sorry for this DC example but I just haven't been reading much Marvel:
Think about the Joker who ultimately brought down the mastermind behind Infinite Crisis. The Joker is by no means more powerful than Alex Luthor but he is fearless in a sense. He is so crazy and uncontrollable that he was intentionally avoided when Alex rallied the villains together.
Fisk would regularly sit in a room with his arch enemies (Spidey, DD, etc.), fairly unguarded. This new kingpin won't last long with these "kingpin in the tower" confrontations because he'll have supervillain enemies who will be out to kill him without regard to consequences and with nothing to lose, quite unlike the hero enemies of Fisk.
Different note, how would The Hood stand up to the likes of Hydra, Dr. Doom, etc.?
Regarding The Hood, I'm going to pass. I LOVE Jenkins 1st Sentry mini and I got extremely excited about the Sentry's inclusion in the New Avengers and simply returning to the Marvel U. Since then, it has been a very mediocre ride for the Sentry. Considering the way that these Bendis-out-of-left-field characters have been treated, I'm afraid The Hood may face similar fate.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Well Forrest, there two types of villains, crazy ones and professional ones. Professional villains have a major advanatge over crazy villains, they are far more organized. To use a DC example, look at the Rogues, Flash's enemies. They are almost like a super villain union, they are organized and that's one of the reasons they can cause problems for Flash. They are a bigger threat to the Flash then lone psychos like Murmur. Now the Rogues aren't that ruthless, they still stick to robbing banks and likely wouldn't get into the drug trade, they commit crimes for fun (they enjoy matching wits with Flash) and seem to avoid civilian deaths if possible. A super villain mafia group would just as organized and more ruthless than the Rogues, making them very dangerous. If such a group were created, it would be hard for a random crazy to take them down.
The only reason Alex Luthor died is because at the end of crossover, he went down the wrong the alley and got blind sided by Luthor and Joker. Alex Luthor didn't have any of his resoruces or alies, so its not Joker or Lex did anything that impressive when they killed him. If Kingpin went down an alley and met Carnage there he would be dead too. Frankly Kingpin is lucky that a random crazy like Carnage or even Doc Ock never tried to kill him. However it would be hard for a random crazy villain to take down Count Nefaria, considering he is an evil Superman. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | A super villain mafia group would just as organized and more ruthless than the Rogues, making them very dangerous. If such a group were created, it would be hard for a random crazy to take them down. |
Agreed that a random crazy would have a hard time taking down the Flash rogues collectively. However, a single kingpin is a different story.
| The Overlord wrote: | | The only reason Alex Luthor died is because at the end of crossover, he went down the wrong the alley and got blind sided by Luthor and Joker. |
Even if he hadn't been in that alley at that time, I think his end was inevitable. He wasn't powerful enough to create the events of Infinite Crisis; he used others through fear (the society), manipulation (Superboy Prime), etc. This created enemies for him that are very dangerous. So, after he failed, I am confident that the likes of Lex and The Joker would find him and bring about his death, regardless.
| The Overlord wrote: | | If Kingpin went down an alley and met Carnage there he would be dead too. Frankly Kingpin is lucky that a random crazy like Carnage or even Doc Ock never tried to kill him. |
Well, what did Fisk ever do to make these villains mad? Fisk's enemies were primarily other human/moderately powered mofia types (Hammerhead, Yakuza, etc.) and heroes, who though they may be powered, would never kill, etc. (Sure, Punisher, Wolverine, etc. are exceptions.) I.e. when DD brought down Fisk, it was generally through using the law / putting Fisk in jail.
If a person is trying to be a kingpin by intimidating and messing with supervillains, then his biggest enemy is supervillains who will kill in the blink of an eye.
The primary difference between the examples of Fisk, the Flash Rogues, etc. and someone like Alex Luthor is who they made enemies with. In the former case, it was usually more sane, somtimes more lawful and/or less powerful types. In the later, many of his enemies were neither sane, lawful or lacking power. (E.g. Post IC, I'm sure Black Adam would have taken down Alex in a heartbeat, given the chance.) That was the bulk of my point, which I just bring up for discussion. It will be interesting to see if a new kingpin can reign in the likes of Venom, Bullseye, etc. and not get killed in the process.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | A super villain mafia group would just as organized and more ruthless than the Rogues, making them very dangerous. If such a group were created, it would be hard for a random crazy to take them down. |
Agreed that a random crazy would have a hard time taking down the Flash rogues collectively. However, a single kingpin is a different story.
| The Overlord wrote: | | The only reason Alex Luthor died is because at the end of crossover, he went down the wrong the alley and got blind sided by Luthor and Joker. |
Even if he hadn't been in that alley at that time, I think his end was inevitable. He wasn't powerful enough to create the events of Infinite Crisis; he used others through fear (the society), manipulation (Superboy Prime), etc. This created enemies for him that are very dangerous. So, after he failed, I am confident that the likes of Lex and The Joker would find him and bring about his death, regardless.
| The Overlord wrote: | | If Kingpin went down an alley and met Carnage there he would be dead too. Frankly Kingpin is lucky that a random crazy like Carnage or even Doc Ock never tried to kill him. |
Well, what did Fisk ever do to make these villains mad? Fisk's enemies were primarily other human/moderately powered mofia types (Hammerhead, Yakuza, etc.) and heroes, who though they may be powered, would never kill, etc. (Sure, Punisher, Wolverine, etc. are exceptions.) I.e. when DD brought down Fisk, it was generally through using the law / putting Fisk in jail.
If a person is trying to be a kingpin by intimidating and messing with supervillains, then his biggest enemy is supervillains who will kill in the blink of an eye.
The primary difference between the examples of Fisk, the Flash Rogues, etc. and someone like Alex Luthor is who they made enemies with. In the former case, it was usually more sane, somtimes more lawful and/or less powerful types. In the later, many of his enemies were neither sane, lawful or lacking power. (E.g. Post IC, I'm sure Black Adam would have taken down Alex in a heartbeat, given the chance.) That was the bulk of my point, which I just bring up for discussion. It will be interesting to see if a new kingpin can reign in the likes of Venom, Bullseye, etc. and not get killed in the process. |
Forrest, did you see my post on the first page? I think if someone wants to be Kingpin of super villans, they would have to have super villain lieutenants to help establish his power. These lieutenants will be the more professional villains that would be more interested in money than bloodshed. Give a bunch of these professional villains control over the day to day criminal operations of different sections of the city (Harlem, Hell's Kitchen). It would be a super villain group run like a business, the top guy would be the CEO, while the Lieutenants would be members of the board of directors. A super villain co-op if you will. So this new Kingpin would have an army of villains that would be motivated to defend this group to ensure their own cash flow. Random crazy villains would be hard pressed to mess with a super villain mafia group.
The problem is who would be cunning and powerful enough to create such a group. I don't think the Hood is not the best option, going from a mook to the new Kingpin overnight is silly. Count Nefaria would make more sense as a super villain Kingpin, he has powers and has been a crime boss since the 60s. No one lone crazy villain would be able to take him on in a fight. Of course DD wouldn't stand a chance against him, Nefaria is too powerful for him. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | Forrest, did you see my post on the first page? |
Actually, I didn't. (My bad.)
| The Overlord wrote: | I think if someone wants to be Kingpin of super villans, they would have to have super villain lieutenants to help establish his power. These lieutenants will be the more professional villains that would be more interested in money than bloodshed. Give a bunch of these professional villains control over the day to day criminal operations of different sections of the city (Harlem, Hell's Kitchen). It would be a super villain group run like a business, the top guy would be the CEO, while the Lieutenants would be members of the board of directors. A super villain co-op if you will. So this new Kingpin would have an army of villains that would be motivated to defend this group to ensure their own cash flow. Random crazy villains would be hard pressed to mess with a super villain mafia group.
The problem is who would be cunning and powerful enough to create such a group. |
Good point. ...why doesn't an existing group like Hydra, The Hand, etc. do this?
| The Overlord wrote: | | Of course DD wouldn't stand a chance against him, Nefaria is too powerful for him. |
I wonder how much of this new Kingpin stuff will involve DD.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Ahhhh, this is all very sketch. As Overlord points out, in order to have a Kingpin of supervillians you need to have some weird supervilian business model thing. As far as I'm concerned this is another non-starter as far as the House of Ideas' ideas.
Who would be in this Evil Corp.? The thing is, the Kingpin made sense because all of his employees made sense. They were the mob. He was the mob. Every once and a while he'd hire some costumed assassins (Bullseye, Nuke, Typhoid) but over all he was just the mafia. The whole evil corporation made sense because Kingpin and all his employees wanted the same thing.
This same thinking just doesn't apply to supervillians. Some villians want money, sure, but by no means most of them. All the X-Men supervillians traditionally have markedly different goals other than money. And as Forrest points out, some villians don't have any goals. They're just crazy.
I think Marvel just wants to have press conferences where people say "cool" things like "he'll be the Kingpin of supervillians" without actually thinking it through.
Boo.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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jc, you basically said what I meant to say with all those posts, only more clear and concise than I did.
...I try not to come across too negative when this sort of recent Marvel news comes up because I don't want to appear biased... even though I am biased. 
I just can't get behind 90% of the big ideas going around in the House of Ideas, these days. Even worse, many of these big Marvel ideas, like the new Thunderbolts, Wolverine Origins, yet another Ronin mystery, the end of Civil War #2, Civil War in general, etc., leave me with very negative reactions. It's getting to the point were I can't tell if Marvel is really getting this bad or if I'm just getting extremely biased.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | Ahhhh, this is all very sketch. As Overlord points out, in order to have a Kingpin of supervillians you need to have some weird supervilian business model thing. As far as I'm concerned this is another non-starter as far as the House of Ideas' ideas.
Who would be in this Evil Corp.? The thing is, the Kingpin made sense because all of his employees made sense. They were the mob. He was the mob. Every once and a while he'd hire some costumed assassins (Bullseye, Nuke, Typhoid) but over all he was just the mafia. The whole evil corporation made sense because Kingpin and all his employees wanted the same thing.
This same thinking just doesn't apply to supervillians. Some villians want money, sure, but by no means most of them. All the X-Men supervillians traditionally have markedly different goals other than money. And as Forrest points out, some villians don't have any goals. They're just crazy.
I think Marvel just wants to have press conferences where people say "cool" things like "he'll be the Kingpin of supervillians" without actually thinking it through.
Boo. |
Well if one wanted to be the Kingpin of super villains, I would hope that individual would have a little more common sense then to invite every super villain in the planet to join. I don't think Kingpin let everyone who applied to join his organization.
Look the group of Flash villains known as the rogues, they are a super villain union more or less. If you want join them you have to follow certain rules (no drugs, no needless killing of civilians, etc) and would punish or exspelled any member who disobeyed those rules (Captain Cold beat up Mirror Master when he found out he was using drugs). The Rogues don't just invite any lunatic who wants to join in, that's why serial killers like Murmur are not invited.
If a super villain mafia were to suceed, it have to have rules and standards for membership. A possible precurser to a MU super villain mafia was a group called in the new Enforcers (led by Mr. Fear, Controller, Fixer, Mentallo and Sunset Bain) who attempted to seize control of the underworld after DD overthrew the Kingpin the first time in the early 90s in the web of Spider-man title. They used pawns like Dragon Man to do the grunt work. Of course that story didn't really go any where, so that might not be the best example. But villains like the ones mentioned above, who are fairly ruthless, somewhat intelligent and interested in money rather than bloodshed or ideology would make up the membership. Then this inner circle would get a bunch of super powered thugs and mercs to do the grunt work.
After a little research though, it seems like the super villain mafia idea may less original then first thought. The idea may have already been done in Savage Dragon. I may cool on the idea if it has already been done before. Oh well. |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: Hey Brubaker |
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| james castle wrote: | I think Marvel just wants to have press conferences where people say "cool" things like "he'll be the Kingpin of supervillians" without actually thinking it through.
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Precisely! Reckless, ill-conceived, ill-considered, foolhardy story lines are Marvel's modus operandi. Marvel rushes headlong into decisions without weighing the consequences. Let's hurriedly, impulsively, hastily divulge Peter Parker's identity! That will astonish them! No doubt. But...is it a wise, sensible, farsighted decision - ? Will the Spider-Man titles thrive in the long term - or will this unthinking decision prove disastrous? But...sales are outstanding at present, Marvel counters. Yes, but will sales be stellar in the long term? It is highly improbable. Civil War is very much akin to the ill-fated Fall from Grace. DD sales mushroomed initially, then plunged. And the comic floundered for years afterwards. If Marvel doesn't abandon its mapcap, devil-may-care approach, readers will ultimately forsake its titles. Guaranteed.
Norman Osborn and other villans - enforcing the law? Thoughtless. Ill-advised. Impetuous. Mindless. Marvel must turn a deaf ear to Brian Michael Bendis and other blundering scribes before it is too late. |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | After a little research though, it seems like the super villain mafia idea may less original then first thought. The idea may have already been done in Savage Dragon. I may cool on the idea if it has already been done before. Oh well. |
Indeed. There have been countless costumed criminals who seized power in the past. In one memorable Mark Gruenwald yarn, it was revealed that the Red Skull was clandestinely financing hordes of villains! It is not a novel or imaginative idea. The self-admiring Mr. Bendis thinks all of his ideas are groundbreaking. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephan wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | After a little research though, it seems like the super villain mafia idea may less original then first thought. The idea may have already been done in Savage Dragon. I may cool on the idea if it has already been done before. Oh well. |
Indeed. There have been countless costumed criminals who seized power in the past. In one memorable Mark Gruenwald yarn, it was revealed that the Red Skull was clandestinely financing hordes of villains! It is not a novel or imaginative idea. The self-admiring Mr. Bendis thinks all of his ideas are groundbreaking. |
I thought the Red Skull was financing terrorist groups like the Watchdogs to promote chaos and overthrow the US government. That's not really the same thing as a super villain mafia. Red Skull's motives are ideological rather then monetary. However I think the idea is tainted if its just a rehash of what was done in Savage Dragon.
I still think Kingpin was overexposed and needs a few years out of the lime light to avoid him becomming a stale character. brubaker should be allowed to develop some new villains, rather than just recycling Miller's villains. |
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Stephan
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | It's getting to the point were I can't tell if Marvel is really getting this bad or if I'm just getting extremely biased. |
It is most assuredly the former, Forrest. Marvel scribes, generally speaking, are not trailblazing or innovative (the Masked Marauder and the Gladiator were trying to seize control of organized crime during the Stan Lee era, for heaven's sake!). These scribes make incautious, impulsive, hare-brained decisions that come back to haunt them in the long run. Their aim is to shock, scandalize and bewilder - and thereby bolster sales. But they lack foresight and farsightedness. They do not have a long-term perspective. And Marvel cannot flourish in the long-term without a long-term perspective. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | jc, you basically said what I meant to say with all those posts, only more clear and concise than I did.. |
I'm a criminal defence lawyer. Saying things nicely is literally all I do (well, that and tell myself that even though I've released another ne'er do well back on to the mean streets I'm still a good guy).
| Stephan wrote: |
Precisely!
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Now he reads and responds to my posts.
Let's all go read Invicible!
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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silvermane23
Flying Blind
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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First of all lets give the story a chance before we completely condemn it. Even I'll admit bendis hasnt been as good as he used to be. But I still think he's proven himself as a writer so we should give him one more chance.
P.S. Brubraker rocks and wouldnt sell out like bendis |
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