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straygoat Flying Blind
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 14 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't once complain about Bendis because I thought at long last, something fresh. That's my whole problem with the return to the status quo - it gives us nothing to think about or anticipate because you know that by the end of the arc, pretty much everything will be the same as it was when it started.
I just feel that at the end of Bendis' run, there were lots of different opportunities to explore and in the end, they went for the safest and least interesting. And Foggy nearly dying was lame - yet another back from the dead character.
As for Matt being noble and honest...well, not really. Of all the heroes, he is probably the most flawed and inconsistent because he works to uphold the law and then acts as a vigilante to make sure justice is served. He has always been a character torn between what is legally right and morally right. Besides, what else would he do in that situation? Admit it and put everyone he knows at risk?
Oh well, I'll keep track of DD in Wizard or something and maybe start buying the TPBs again in a year or so. I really don't have any interest in standard, let's use Matt's senses to track down a villain, have a fight, Matt prevails storylines. |
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Dimetre Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 1366 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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straygoat wrote: | I didn't once complain about Bendis because I thought at long last, something fresh. |
I was specifically asking why you would criticize Brubaker for the mischaracterization of Vanessa, when Bendis did it first? I could buy Brubaker's "playing chess" analogy, but Bendis didn't even attempt to explain how Vanessa was capable of murdering her own child? If wildly diverging from previously known and accepted character traits counts as "something fresh," than I'll stick with day-olds.
straygoat wrote: | And Foggy nearly dying was lame - yet another back from the dead character. |
If he had died, would you have liked it better?
straygoat wrote: | As for Matt being noble and honest...well, not really. Of all the heroes, he is probably the most flawed and inconsistent because he works to uphold the law and then acts as a vigilante to make sure justice is served. He has always been a character torn between what is legally right and morally right. Besides, what else would he do in that situation? Admit it and put everyone he knows at risk? |
There is a contradiction to his character, yes, but that is part of what makes his character so noble to me. We all know that legal justice isn't always real justice, but Matt is able to ensure (usually) that he stands for what is true. Plus, he has previously shown such moral strength under extreme conditions. He pulled Bullseye out of the way of an oncoming subway. When he had the means to kill Bullseye in the hospital, his gun had no bullets. He has always been on the side of truth. It's only in recent years that he tried to bilk a newspaper publisher of millions of dollars for printing what he knew was the truth, and allowed innocent people to die simply rather than disclose his secret identity. Whoops I'm getting off on a rant here again....
In the end though, readers had their break from "Daredevil's status quo" for five years. After two of those years I couldn't take it anymore. I'm glad you enjoyed it, but Bendis and Brubaker both claim that writing reins were handed over in a somewhat collaborative manner. As others have pointed out, all evidence indicates that Bendis was lying when he claimed to have an ending. His experiment was out of control, and Brubaker was forced to clean it up. Whoops, I'm getting off on a rant here again....
In summery, not all breaks from status quo are worthwhile. |
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straygoat Flying Blind
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 14 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I can see where you are coming from, but I think Bendis' run has made the return to the status quo even more jarring for me...it just seemed that a Marvel title was going to become a little edgier and more unpredicatble for a while and it got my hopes up. That is my main problem with comics (not just DD) these days - apart from the indie press, they are just too predictable.
I know what you're going to say - read indie titles then. I do, but I still love the Marvel characters from my childhood...I just wish they had developed and matured over time (like I have I guess).
Oh and for the record, yes I would have preferred it if Foggy was stabbed and killed. It would have meant a permanent change in Matt's life and something of consequence came out of the entire Bendis run. |
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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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straygoat wrote: |
As for Matt being noble and honest...well, not really. Of all the heroes, he is probably the most flawed and inconsistent because he works to uphold the law and then acts as a vigilante to make sure justice is served. He has always been a character torn between what is legally right and morally right.
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Opps, looks like someone's been watching the movie and reading Joey Q/Kevin Smith interviews too much. Here's a tip to understanding Matt Murdock: read some Daredevil comics. I'm sure there's a few examples (well...maybe) but I literally can't remember an example from the comics where Matt argues a case in court, loses and then "sets things right" as Daredevil. Wait....thinking....nope. Can't think of one. There's lots of him running around as Daredevil to investigate cases he's working on but how is that a contradiction?
He works to uphold the law and then acts as a vigilante to make sure justice is served.? When? Sure, he "breaks the law" by assaulting people but so does every Marvel hero. Matt is noble and consistent.
Stop drinking the Kool Aid kids. _________________ JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Neilan Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 216 Location: Southampton, PA
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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The contradiction, (I would prefer the term counterpoint) is that Matt breaks the law as Daredevil and upholds the law as a lawyer. His personality is somewhat of a yin/yang. No, he's not a villain, or total lawbreaker, but he does as Daredevil, what no other officer of the court, other than She-Hulk, can do. This is a huuge appeal of the character, I believe, even for those who don't recognize it. It is what keeps most of us coming back for more, almost no matter who is at the helm.
Just because other characters break the law, that doesn't make it right. Daredevil can get to the truth without following the rules that Matt Murdock has to. This is why I like my DD edgy. Which way will he go? The suspense is killing me. _________________ It's never too late to have a happy childhood! |
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rgj Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 1580 Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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jc, is 100% right, and I hope he continues to spank these kids who obviousy don't know what they are talking about.
Is Matt "flawed?" Yeah, sure, he's human. He makes mistakes. But, at his core he is a noble man. He believes in the law. Justice. And, defends the weak from the aggressor (which is why he goes up against the Punisher too). These are the things that drive him to be the fighter he is (didn't someone say that at his core he was a fighter ).
For heaven's sake, not only do friends like Ben Urich describe Matt as noble, but his arch ememy, the Kingpin, also says Matt is noble (which is probably one of the reasons KP loves to hate him so). Heck, even Mephisto took exception to Matt's nobility, and compared him to the Silver Surfer (a noble but flawed being himself).
Again, is he flawed? The guy is noble to a fault, so yeah, he's flawed! Look, this is a man, a hero, who has saved the lives, and showed mercy on his most vile enemies (Bulls on the subway). His compassion for the memory of Vanessa Fisk (not to mention his own sense of penance for his culpability in her downfall) took on more importance than his feeling of hatred to her husband. His feelings of remorse for "defeating" Typhoid Mary and getting her comitted afterwards, during Last Rites, is the very definiton of a "good" man. The heart of a good man. And, also in Last Rites, he freakin' defeated the Kingpin with words. "I forgive you." (I think KP may hate him more for those words than any punch Matt ever threw at him and connected with). Crap, if that ain't noble, I don't know what is.
Are we all reading the same comic? I supose someone is going to argue that Matt is a womanizer too. Like MSJ and Sacred Cow Kevin Smith (thanks, Scott!). These fools obviously aren't reading the same comic.
rgj |
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Murdock Bell Flying Blind
Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 87
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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james castle wrote: |
Opps, looks like someone's been watching the movie and reading Joey Q/Kevin Smith interviews too much. Here's a tip to understanding Matt Murdock: read some Daredevil comics. I'm sure there's a few examples (well...maybe) but I literally can't remember an example from the comics where Matt argues a case in court, loses and then "sets things right" as Daredevil. |
Uhm, that's not what straygoat said at all.
He basically pointed out that there's a hypocritical contradiction between Matt's dayjob as a lawyer and his career as a hero, and it's a completely valid observation. Matt doesn't have to be working on the same case in both identities for that hypocrisy to hold true--as a lawyer, Matt made an *oath* to uphold the laws of this country, and yet he tramples on all kinds of laws and rights in his actions as Daredevil. From a certain perspective, his identity as a vigilante makes a complete mockery of the ideals of his profession.*
"A lawyer who breaks the law"--that was Frank Miller's description of Daredevil, not Kevin Smith's or Quesada's, in one of the best essays on Daredevil I've ever read (the one in Man Without Fear).
That doesn't mean Matt isn't noble, but there are very clear contrasts in his character, and he does have very deep flaws and dark impulses that distinguish him from other heroes like Captain America and Spider-Man. Those contradictions make him a richer character than either of those two, in my opinion, and, ultimately, it's his nobility and strength of character that keep his uglier nature from dominating his behavior. Without them, he would've become Elektra.
*Yes, other heroes break the same laws, but most of them haven't taken up careers to uphold the law, and thus lack that hypocrisy angle |
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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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What the devil does everything think Spider-man is doing? Or Batman? Or Superman? Oh yeah, THEY'RE UPHOLDING THE LAW. What? They break the law as a means of upholding the law? Wow, what a neat and original and exciting contradiction. What's the word for someone who up holds the law but breaks it while doing it? Vigilant-something? Do you know who breaks the law even though they're trying to uphold it? EVERY SUPERHERO WHO EVER EXISTED.
As for Matt being a lawyer: guess what? Lawyers aren't any more or less bound by the law. Taking an oath to up hold the law is meaningless. Everyone has to respect the law like it or not.
Lawyers are not bound to uphold the law either. If Matt was a DA, maybe, maybe you guys would have an argument. But he isn't and he never has been. Lawyers smash laws for god's sake. No other profession allows you to do that.
As for Matt being able to do stuff as Daredevil that no other lawyer can. Well, Matt does stuff as Daredevil that no other lawyer can do. That's true. But he also does stuff as Daredevil that no other dentist could do, or photographer could do, or spot welder could do, or priest could do. For the sake of brievity let's all agree that Matt does stuff as Daredevil that no other person (who isn't a superhero) could do.
To recap, you guys are saying:
"Daredevil is neat and original and conflicted because:
1. He breaks the law while trying to enforce them. Just like every other superhero.
2. He's a superhero."
Good work. _________________ JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1307
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | What the devil does everything think Spider-man is doing? Or Batman? Or Superman? Oh yeah, THEY'RE UPHOLDING THE LAW. |
Not necessarily. |
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james castle Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 1999 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Francesco wrote: | Quote: | What the devil does everything think Spider-man is doing? Or Batman? Or Superman? Oh yeah, THEY'RE UPHOLDING THE LAW. |
Not necessarily. |
Generally. If you scratched Spider-Man and asked him what he was up to he'd say "catching criminals. and revealing my secret identity for no reason but that's another story". _________________ JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Neilan Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 216 Location: Southampton, PA
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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james castle wrote: | As for Matt being a lawyer: guess what? Lawyers aren't any more or less bound by the law. Taking an oath to up hold the law is meaningless. Everyone has to respect the law like it or not.
Lawyers are not bound to uphold the law either. If Matt was a DA, maybe, maybe you guys would have an argument. But he isn't and he never has been. Lawyers smash laws for god's sake. No other profession allows you to do that. |
Everbody has to obey the law, but I would expect someone who chooses a career in law to have a much greater respect for it than a teacher, brooding rich guy, or alien reporter.
When Spidey or the DC icons breaks the law as a vigilante, it doesn't call into question their belief in the ethics of their chosen professions.
I find this conflict of belief, that I see in Matt, to be a vital aspect of what I like about the character. If you want to say that lots of people, many real live humans and other fictional characters, also have an internal conflict, I have to agree with that. That's why that aspect of Daredevil appeals to me. The universal nature of this theme is familiar in a, perhaps, subtle way which helps make it interesting. _________________ It's never too late to have a happy childhood! |
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rgj Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 1580 Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I really like how everyone here feels that lawyers (the ones that aren't vigilantes) are so eithical in "up holding the law." It's cute in it's naivete.
Look, Matt has never REPRESENTED a client and behind his back try to bring him down as DD (correct me if I'm wrong). Usually, Matt's DD activities usually go hand in hand with defending his client. Where is the hypocrisy there?
You know, if you really think about it, has Matt ever defended a client he knew was guilty? I mean, clients can't lie to him. If you think about it, it may be more "unethical" for Matt to refuse council because he knows (via the DD powers) someone is guilty. Yeah, that sounds absurd, but isn't EVERYONE (like O.J.) entitled to a fair (fairly represented) trial? Then again, I'm not a lawyer, so maybe I'm way off base here.
Seems to me that Matt (vigilante and all) is more respectful of the law than most "ordinary" lawyers. Because, in the end, he tries to be altrustic and seek real justice.
rgj |
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Murdock Bell Flying Blind
Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 87
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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james castle wrote: |
As for Matt being a lawyer: guess what? Lawyers aren't any more or less bound by the law. Taking an oath to up hold the law is meaningless. Everyone has to respect the law like it or not. |
Whether or not you think taking that oath is meaningless, there's a reason Matt would be immediately disbarred if it was ever "proven" that he was Daredevil, even if he avoided jail time. As a lawyer in New York, Matt is expected to have a respect for our system of laws--and an adherence to them--that transcends your own apparant standards.
Yes, everyone has to respect our laws, only insofar as anyone who breaks them may be punished if caught. However, Matt went the extra mile and entered a profession whose entire basis and set of principles rest on treating the law as inviolate, and working *within* the system for desired change. There are extra ethical and moral lines Matt breaks in addition to the law that don't apply to any of the heroes you brought up, because of the type of career and oath he willingly took up.
There IS a hyprocisy in Matt's dual identities, and each contradicts the other. You could argue that he accepts that contradiction for the greater good--and Matt certainly believes so--but he's still a hypocrite on some level all the same. He doesn't HAVE to be a lawyer.
james castle wrote: |
Lawyers are not bound to uphold the law either. If Matt was a DA, maybe, maybe you guys would have an argument. But he isn't and he never has been. |
Aside from the fact that Matt has worked for the DA's office as a prosecutor in the past, your statement is completely bogus. Lawyers ARE bound to uphold the law, and take an oath to do so.
Last edited by Murdock Bell on Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Murdock Bell Flying Blind
Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 87
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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rgj wrote: |
Seems to me that Matt (vigilante and all) is more respectful of the law than most "ordinary" lawyers. Because, in the end, he tries to be altrustic and seek real justice.
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And that's ultimately how Matt sees it, and why he's a sympathetic character.
That doesn't change the fact that this choice is a direct violation of the ethics and principles he's supposed to uphold as a lawyer. Since no one forced him to become a lawyer in the first place, and no one's forcing him to continue being one, there's an element of hypocrisy in his actions.
You either believe one's own personal sense of justice justifies breaking the law when both come into conflict, or that a person has to work within the system to make the law reflect one's own sense of justice.
You can't have it both ways, the way Matt at least pretends to whenever he's arguing before the court.
He's still my favorite superhero, partly because of those interesting contradictions. |
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Neilan Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 216 Location: Southampton, PA
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Murdock Bell wrote: | rgj wrote: |
Seems to me that Matt (vigilante and all) is more respectful of the law than most "ordinary" lawyers. Because, in the end, he tries to be altrustic and seek real justice.
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And that's ultimately how Matt sees it, and why he's a sympathetic character.
That doesn't change the fact that this choice is a direct violation of the ethics and principles he's supposed to uphold as a lawyer. Since no one forced him to become a lawyer in the first place, and no one's forcing him to continue being one, there's an element of hypocrisy in his actions.
You either believe one's own personal sense of justice justifies breaking the law when both come into conflict, or that a person has to work within the system to make the law reflect one's own sense of justice.
You can't have it both ways, the way Matt at least pretends to whenever he's arguing before the court.
He's still my favorite superhero, partly because of those interesting contradictions. |
Thanks for clearly expressing my thoughts. _________________ It's never too late to have a happy childhood! |
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