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Daredevil Message Board
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Well, since Alice invited us to the party . . .
| Forrest wrote: | | It's a fact that the haters of the film (theatrical or DC) are far more vocal than the lovers of the film |
Are you kidding me!? Feel free to read everything movie related on this board and you'll see that the it's the movie lovers (of course, now it's the DC and not the TR that everyone loves) that are always mouthing off, eager to blow MSJ's horn.
And, when a negative thing is finally written about the movie, then the pro's collectively roll their eyes and say, "Okay, here comes jc or rgj, those "vocal" bastards."
Seriously, read this very thread. My main response was about the radar. I wasn't going on about the other aspects of the movie that collectively made it an uninspired, insipid piece of celluloid.
And, by the way, someone started this thread asking what people thought of the DC. Are you serious? Are you saying that people with negative comments should not respond? Please. Jim B.'s opinion was very insightful (to those of us yet to see--and will never see--the DC). He didn't like it. Get over it people. No one (namely jc or rgj) came in criticizing all the DC rave reviews by the easily entertained pro movie group. Yet one negaive post and then the pro's start with their old, tired, "here come the "haters"" diatribe.
| train wrote: | | now back to our regularly scheduled movie hating rants |
C'mon, train, you're better than that. Seriously, this is obviously a pro movie thread. You don't see any anti movie people dismissing this as pro movie "rants."
Perhaps, the pro's aren't really mad at the anti's. Perhaps, they're really mad that their will never be a DD2 (and, thus, no DD2 DC--which would be considered the "real" movie by all of you).
No DD2? Gee, I wonder why that is??
rgj |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I too thought the Director’s cut was better than the released version. I appreciated seeing a little more of young Matt. I felt it helped the viewer get a better insight into DD’s motivation and deepened the emotions felt when his dad got taken down. But it didn’t make up for Affleck’s acting, or the depiction of Bullseye, or the obsession with Jennifer Garner’s body (wait, I didn’t really mind that) or why Matt would spar with Elektra sans costume. Still a disappointing film.
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | Well, since Alice invited us to the party . . .
| Forrest wrote: | | It's a fact that the haters of the film (theatrical or DC) are far more vocal than the lovers of the film |
Are you kidding me!? Feel free to read everything movie related on this board and you'll see that the it's the movie lovers (of course, now it's the DC and not the TR that everyone loves) that are always mouthing off, eager to blow MSJ's horn.
And, when a negative thing is finally written about the movie, then the pro's collectively roll their eyes and say, "Okay, here comes jc or rgj, those "vocal" bastards."
Seriously, read this very thread. My main response was about the radar. I wasn't going on about the other aspects of the movie that collectively made it an uninspired, insipid piece of celluloid.
And, by the way, someone started this thread asking what people thought of the DC. Are you serious? Are you saying that people with negative comments should not respond? Please. |
...I think you're venting. All I said was that the film haters are more vocal than the film lovers. That's it. I welcome your opinion of the film, I see your points, etc. I really didn't mean to knock anyone you doesn't like the film, especially you and jc.
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | ...I think you're venting. All I said was that the film haters are more vocal than the film lovers. |
Venting??
Is that what my coherent and articulate rebuttal is being reduced to? Typical.
But, anyway, I totally disagree with you. It has been my experience on this board that it is the film lovers who are far more vocal. And, they seem to take personal exception to any argument to the contrary. This is about the only place that I've seen where there are more film supporters than detractors.
Agree to disagree Forrest.
rgj |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I think to argue whether pro or anti movie posters are in the majority/minority is to miss the point. It's probably about even. Having said that, (and i've never tried this so I could be wrong), if there is a keyword search for 'movie' or whatever, I'm sure rgj and castle come right near the top in any search for number of posts on the subject. Even they'll admit their pretty vocal. I long ago made my point on why I thought the movie was fine by me, and I'm happy with that.
All of which is still not the point. What is, and what never fails to amuse me is the people who get involved with threads concerning the DC and have never actually seen it. They've only seen the theatrical. Hands up, people. Who in this thread has seen the thing and who hasn't?
I've seen it. It's so much better than the theatrical. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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I fully admit that I can't bring myself to watch the DC. Mostly (and reasonably, i might add) because, as I understand it, the DC doesn't change anything wrt what was wrong with the movie in the first place. When I first saw the movie I laughed out loud at:
The flaming DD that made no sense.
"What do you want?" - "Justice!"
Ben Affleck's acting.
Horrid, horrid CGI.
Elektra "realizing" that Matt/Daredevil didn't kill her father for no real reason.
Daredevil "learning" that killing people is bad.
The stiff playground fight (that made no sense).
Matt being blinded because he's an idiot as opposed to a hero.
Matt's cane turning into a baton for no reason.
....and a few other things.
As I understand it NONE of these things have changed. I honestly can't bring myself to spend any amount of money to test my theory that no amount of Coolio subplot could make up for the above.
In any event, what amuses me is that the people who defend the DC are the same people who defended the theatrical version when it came out.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so far we got jc and rgj admiting that they haven't seen the DC. Hmmm...
| james castle wrote: | | In any event, what amuses me is that the people who defend the DC are the same people who defended the theatrical version when it came out. |
Well, why can't I see the funny side? Why aren't I laughing? See, it seems to me that its perfectly reasonable for someone who liked the theatrical to love the DC. It's kind of...logical. Even people who hate the theatrical and still have no time for the DC kind of admit that the latter is 'better'.
So what you find amusing is logical, but I'm not sure if its true. I could be missing out a lot of posters here, but being here at the time of original release, I'd say maybe Alice and myself kind of liked parts of the original in one form or the other. Others, maybe Privateer and Forrest (?) disliked the original but like the DC. So what you find amusing is logical, and...kind of not true.
What I find amusing is some peoples lack of logic. While we're on the subject of 'logic', lets get to grips with what we've got here.
First off, we've got a thread about the Daredevil Directors Cut.
And the posters...
1. Those that have seen it and liked it (logical)
2. Those that have seen it and disliked it (logical)
3. Those that haven't seen it but dis it and the people who like it, using the people who don't like it and the things they disliked in the original as some kind of justification for them being in the thread in the first place (illogical, with a twist of obsessive bordering on the completely whacko)
I mean, that's it, really. Following the same lack of logic in other threads could be construed as madness. Picture a new rgj thread in 'off topic' 'I LOVE TEXAS'. extoling the wonders of Texas to anyone who can be bothered to read it. Pete, in a moment of complete and utter boredom, posts a reply.
'Texas is s*%t, rgj', it's so s&%t they'll never make another'
'Really, Pete?' says shocked and stunned rgj, 'What didn't you like about it?' '
'Never been there, pal. But Jim B didn't like it and I thought his post insightful'
'Bah!' I dismiss your negative thoughts on my home state as lacking reason and based on no substansive evidence whatsoever' replies rgj, undoubtedly.
Since its day of release, no topic has split this board moreso than MSJ and his film. But his film remains the DC, its the one that he made, and the theatrical is the version Foster and Fox squeezed out of that film. I'm kind of beyond trying to convince people to 'go see' the DC, because I really don't care if they do or don't. But in any thread that gets called Daredevil Directors Cut, its good to read thoughts, both pro and anti, from people who've actually seen the thing. Because there're the only ones that are valid. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to have to disagree with you but disagree I must.
The jist of your little post is: "if you haven't seen the DC you cannot comment on it". Seems logical enough on the surface but it falls apart if you really think about the matter.
Look, there's no escaping the fact that the DC contains huge chunks of the TR version. Wikipedia provides a helpful list of things that were cut out of and things that were added into the TR to create the DC. Quite literally nothing in that list touches on any of the problems I outlined above; problems that go to the very heart of the movie. Almost every major plot point is marred with either some boneheaded reasoning ("hey, look kids, Matt realized murdering people is bad") or blatant plot holes. As I understand it, all of these problems exist in the DC.
Okay, so here's the thing. While I may not be able to say "I saw the DC and it sucked", I can say "I saw the TR and it had (INSERT HUGE PROBLEM HERE) in it. That (HUGE PROBLEM) sucked so much and was so obvious that any movie with that (HUGE PROBLEM) in it sucks". Lo and behold the DC has all of those problems.
It's like this: imagine if I saw Star Wars: The Phantom Menace and I came away and was like "holy crap, Jar Jar Binks and the Young Darth ruined that movie. it sucked due to those two". Then, a few years later say Lucas made another version that was pretty much the same as the original but had a bit more pod racing and maybe a subplot about an Ewok. Surely I would say "well does it still have all the unwatchable Jar Jar, Baby Darth stuff in it?". If so then I can still say it sucks.
As for why the TR/DC loving people amuse me: it's basically due to the fact that I see the whole DC thing as unforgiveably cynical to begin with. MSJ made a bad movie. It was panned into the dust. Then he releases a DC and is like "this is the movie I really wanted to make". It's a cagey move because, again, the DC doesn't take out or fix anything in the TR that led to it getting bad reviews. What it does do, however, is two things. First, it allows people to get around a flood of bad reviews. See, no one really reviews DVDs. Those who do generally review DVD a DVDs. That is, the reviews take into account things like bonus features, etc.. So, when someone points to Rottentomatoes and says "Daredevil was panned" MSJ can say, "no, no, that's the TR". Lucky for him, no such resource exists for straight to DVD releases.
Secondly, the DC allows people (like Pete) to forever dodge perfectly reasonable issues like the ones I raised above. Again, the same plot holes and problems in the TR are there in the DC. But somehow people pretend that 30 extra, unrelated, minutes somehow fix the other stuff. It's like if there was a horse with a broken leg and I said "that horse has a broken leg" and then Pete comes along and puts a hat on it and calls it fixed. That's not fixed. That's just a horse with a broken leg and a hat.
Anyway, why I'm amused by Pete and co. is because I think it's amusing that they would so whole heartly pick up MSJ's poor excuses. People drinking the Kool Aid always amuses me.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | 3. Those that haven't seen it but dis it and the people who like it, using the people who don't like it and the things they disliked in the original as some kind of justification for them being in the thread in the first place (illogical, with a twist of obsessive bordering on the completely whacko) |
Who's dissing who around here? As I said, my comments were about the radar. Never dissed the DC or the DC lovers. It was Alice and train that started on the "here comes the DD haters."
As for the DC? Look, what, mabye 1% of the people who saw the DD TR (comic and non-comic fans) have seen the DC (only comic book readers most likely). The DC, in the end, is a non-factor.
rgj |
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Jim B.
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 124
Location: Woodstock Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Pete: I never ever said I hated Texas! Texas is where Richard Linklater is from and he made one of the coolest movies ever IMO "Dazed and Confused" Texas is great! Now Utah, that place I don't like... Get it right Pete! 
 
I liked the DC better than the theatrical but I still don't think it's a great movie, but at least it is more watchable this time around. But I have to agree with some things James C. says, it does not take things out of the movie that made it bad in the first place (except the bad scene of Elektra and Matt in bed like I said about before) so it is still very flawed.
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"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Again, I'm not out to 'convert' anyone to the DD DC cause here. Honestly couldn't care less. I'd actually quite like to trade blows with jc and rgj on the DC, but, unlike the theatrical when we all traded blows regularly, I've refused. Why? Well, it would be unfair. See, I've seen it. they haven't. Straight away I've got the unfair advantage.
| james castle wrote: |
Look, there's no escaping the fact that the DC contains huge chunks of the TR version. Wikipedia provides a helpful list of things that were cut out of and things that were added into the TR to create the DC. Quite literally nothing in that list touches on any of the problems I outlined above; problems that go to the very heart of the movie. |
Well, they're problems for you, not for everyone. Sure the 'flaming DD' and various fight scenes are still there. (The flaming DD was always a problem for me, but then, for me, it hardly even scrapes, let alone touches, 'the very heart of the movie'. But hey, hurrah for Wikipedia. Hurrah.
Its hard to talk about the DC with someone who hasn't seen it. Really, it is. The whole 30 minute subplot thing just misses the mark completely. Anyone who's seen the thing will testify to that. People who have seen it will know this...forget the extra 30 minutes for a moment and concentrate on just an extra six or seven seconds. The final fight scene with Kingpin and DD. In the theatrical, DD fires his billy club cable, the Kingpin catches it with his cane and by sheer brute force manages to thrust DD the whole length of the room, smashing him into the far wall/window. The whole thing just looks lame and unbelievable, even for a superhero movie. People who like the movie think it looks silly. People who hate the movie think its even sillier.
Now, with the 'cynical' ( as jc sees it) release of the DC, people can see what MSJ actually filmed. The Kingpin is strong enough to pull DD half the length of the room, from where he pummels him some more before flinging him the rest of the way into the far wall. Makes sense, and certainly more realistic.
To see just this one scene in its entirety, as it was meant to be, is to wonder why Foster and Fox bothered to cut it to shreads enough so it makes no sense in the first place. Sure, cuts out some of the violence, I guess.
The DC is the movie MSJ made. It's slow paced, dark, very very violent and makes sense. The theatrical, all we had at the time, has been seen for what it is, a bastardised version of that film that the producer and studio tried to squeeze into a 'wham, bam action packed superhero yarn' and failed. They failed then, then failed when they decided to make the sequel 'Elektra'.
| Quote: | | MSJ made a bad movie. It was panned into the dust. Then he releases a DC and is like "this is the movie I really wanted to make". It's a cagey move because, again, the DC doesn't take out or fix anything in the TR that led to it getting bad reviews. What it does do, however, is two things. First, it allows people to get around a flood of bad reviews. See, no one really reviews DVDs. Those who do generally review DVD a DVDs. That is, the reviews take into account things like bonus features, etc.. |
Well, your argument would make some kind of sense here if we weren't talking about this particular movie. See, they released the theatrical DVD, with tons of extras, first. What reviews I read were mixed for the film but commended the wealth of extras. Much later they released a DC with next to nothing in extras ( in the UK a single 10-15 minute doc). What reviews there were here focused on the vast inprovement in the DC over the theatrical.
| Quote: | | Secondly, the DC allows people (like Pete) to forever dodge perfectly reasonable issues like the ones I raised above. Again, the same plot holes and problems in the TR are there in the DC. But somehow people pretend that 30 extra, unrelated, minutes somehow fix the other stuff. |
They're remain, of course. your problems and I refuse to 'fix 'em' for you. Fix 'em yourself. Apart from the flaming DD thing, I don't have a problem with any of them. For you they are 'perfectly reasonable issues' that people 'dodge', but some people, frankly, just don't give a damn. Because entering into a 'debate' with you, if possible, would entail us treading old ground, talking about a bastardised version of a film (again) that has been seen in a new light. No one 'pretends' that 30 (actually quite related) minutes somehow fixes your 'stuff', because no one who has watched the DC and liked it cares about your 'stuff'. I've seen the DC. You haven't. I'd love to argue with you about it James, you know in your heart of hearts I would. But I just can't. It would be so unfair of me. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Did the DC address where Matt stayed after his father died when he was 12?? (Cause MSJ didn't know that Matt was much older than that in the comic, apparetly).
Seriously, did he go to foster care in Hell's Kitchen?? Cause that would be amazing if he did.
Look, we can go on and on again about this. Pete liked the TC and the DC even more. jc and rgj hated the TC and don't really care to see the DC.
Sorry, KP throwing Matt in smaller increments doesn't make me want to see the DC. Ghost Rider was MSJ's "vision." And, that sucked too.
rgj |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
Who's dissing who around here? As I said, my comments were about the radar. Never dissed the DC or the DC lovers. It was Alice and train that started on the "here comes the DD haters." |
You're dissing, when you say things like, and I quote, 'easily entertained pro movie group.'
| Quote: | | As for the DC? Look, what, mabye 1% of the people who saw the DD TR (comic and non-comic fans) have seen the DC (only comic book readers most likely). The DC, in the end, is a non-factor. |
Which makes sense in the wider scheme of things. But not on a comic book message board and especially not in a thread called Daredevil Directors Cut.
And Jim B. I like Texas too. I really liked the first album and Charleene whatserface has a really good voice 
But seriously, thank you. You've seen the DC and didn't like it. Thanks for a valid contribution. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | You're dissing, when you say things like, and I quote, 'easily entertained pro movie group.' |
You have to put in proper context. Things had already been said anti-haters. I was just meeting like with like. And, I did say pro movie group. Not pro DC.
rgj |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | You have to put in proper context. Things had already been said anti-haters. I was just meeting like with like. And, I did say pro movie group. Not pro DC.
rgj |
My God, how swiftly the 'debate' plummets.
So, you were dissing, like I said? And what is the distinction between 'pro movie' and 'pro DC'? If we're talking people on this board whats the distinction? Do some people belong to one but not the other?
Or are you admiting, in your own subtle way, that, yes, you can't talk about the DC or anyone who likes it with any authority? |
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