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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt kills Larks by deflecting the bullet meant to him into the middle of his forehead. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Katerine wrote: |
Was that what happened? Is there another instance that I don't remember? |
He killed the Karl Kagerfeld-looking thug by returning the bullet with a coup of the billy club.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"
Last edited by Gloria on Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Man, the above reply by Gloria shows how much have I lost my touch lately  . |
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Matt kills Larks by deflecting the bullet meant to him into the middle of his forehead. |
Thanks - I remember it now.  (I'd actually totally forgotten about that storyline when I'd first posted.)
The thing is... I can't believe I forgot that moment, because that was in the scene where I first fell in love with Matt. Why? Because he's trying to save a young girl... but rather than taking the expedient route of just killing the bad guy right away (the way someone like Frank would have done), he tries to give that guy every possible chance to live.
"Let her go. I don't want to kill you. Let her go."
The way I interpreted that scene was that he was entirely focussed on getting that girl safely away. He really didn't want to kill that guy - hence the many warnings. It was only when Larks started shooting that Matt wasn't really left with much choice - not without putting the girl in danger (or getting killed, himself, for that matter). Self-defense.
Not to mention, this was when he was first starting out, which meant that he hadn't yet gotten the knack of defending himself with less-than-lethal force. He was backed up to a corner (metaphorically speaking), and I think he did the only thing that he could have done.
Anyway, that's just how I saw it. I actually saw this scene as one that sets him apart from traditional vigilantes who kill the bad guys. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Katerine wrote: | | Anyway, that's just how I saw it. I actually saw this scene as one that sets him apart from traditional vigilantes who kill the bad guys. |
Well, that's how I saw it, too. Matt is concerned about people's rights (see his reasoning at the end of the classic Frank Miller story* "Devils!"). For Matt (as opposed to what Bullseye or the Punisher do), killing will be always the very last option, and an option to be avoided: he fights crime and murder is, after all, a crime.
* Or, to enter the MU POV, "Mr. Frank Miller's chronicle of Matt's adventures"
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Blind Alley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 292
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | He killed the Karl Kagerfeld-looking thug by returning the bullet with a coup of the billy club. |
Maybe Marvel will someday make a 6 part mini-series to explain that it was INDEED Karl Lagerfeld !
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Blind Alley wrote: | | Gloria wrote: | | He killed the Karl Kagerfeld-looking thug by returning the bullet with a coup of the billy club. |
Maybe Marvel will someday make a 6 part mini-series to explain that it was INDEED Karl Lagerfeld ! |
I like the idea!  I don't have warm feelings about the snooty high-couture lords, who hate women so much, that design these horrible clothes with impossible sizes which make women unhappy with their bodies and their lives!
Huh-oh, down from my soapbox now  I admit that I cheered at seeing Larks-erfeld getting what he deserved 
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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There is also the time in Born Again, where DD takes down the helicopter with the grenade launcher. We are led to assume the pilot was killed, because DD says, "Forgive me."
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Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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Solid Snake PAC
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Conroe, Tx
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Matt has only killed in the upmost extreme circumstances. He doesn't like it, that's for sure. And I'm pretty sure he never lives it down, because going to EXTRA inch is essentially him being very similar to Fisk or say Bullseye.
EDIT: Nuke has a rocket launcher of sorts on that gun of his. Realistically though it'd have to be a grenade launcher....Pg. 141 on the BA TPB, bottom frame.. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Blind Alley wrote: |
Another mischaracterization I remember is in "Wolverine : Enemy of the State" where Logan insinuates Matt is a player.
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B.A. - thanks for your review. I enjoyed reading your analysis of Matt's character. However, I have to respectfully disagree with you and agree with Logan regarding the point I highlighted above.
During the Bendis run (which I thoroughly enjoyed), when it came to how he reacted to being outed, Matt played a high risk, shrewd and ongoing game of misdirection and manipulation of his identity - often putting his reputation and career on the line. In other words, Matt was a "player" in the greatest sense of its meaning. Here's how:
1) Matt Murdock took great steps to defend his secret identity, such as: i) After he was outed, he threatens to sue the newspaper for spreading false information and eventually gains a huge settlement. ii) during the "Widow" arc, a policeman does a favour for Matt Murdock as his way of saying thanks for Daredevil's work in the community. Matt's response to the policeman was to say that he has him confused with someone else. iii) when stiltman comes to see him, Matt's response is the same: it's a case of mistaken identity; iv) He holds a press conference stating that he has been slandered and mistaken for someone else.
2) Matt Murdock simultaneously flaunts the fact he's Daredevil, such as: After defeating the Kingpin, he removes his mask and in front of a shocked public, declares himself to be the new Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen. That public demonstration is the so-called smoking gun: it's proof positive that Matt Murdock is
Daredevil.
3) Matt Murdock likes to walk a razor sharp fine line between points 1 & 2, such as: Deciding to take on the "Trial of the Century" case during the height of his identity crisis thereby inflaming discourse and attention on his alter-ego situation.
All in all, it's a great game of sleight of hand. Matt builds lies on top of lies; he simultaneously encourages and discourages public opinion about his alter-ego. It all builds and builds to its ultimate conclusion: The Murdock Papers. Eventually the high stakes poker game he's played, in which he's put all his loved ones at risk, starts to unravel and he is trapped within the web of his own manipulations. He ultimately either has to escape the country or go to jail.
I thought it was a great piece of storytelling, watching Matt masterfully and very coolly juggling the events in his life to meet his needs. Try as he might, though, he couldn't help it all come crashing down on him. Make no mistake, Matt ended up in his awful downfall because of his role as a player.
Logan was right.
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | Blind Alley wrote: |
Another mischaracterization I remember is in "Wolverine : Enemy of the State" where Logan insinuates Matt is a player.
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B.A. - thanks for your review. I enjoyed reading your analysis of Matt's character. However, I have to respectfully disagree with you and agree with Logan regarding the point I highlighted above.
During the Bendis run (which I thoroughly enjoyed), when it came to how he reacted to being outed, Matt played a high risk, shrewd and ongoing game of misdirection and manipulation of his identity - often putting his reputation and career on the line. In other words, Matt was a "player" in the greatest sense of its meaning. Here's how:
1) Matt Murdock took great steps to defend his secret identity, such as: i) After he was outed, he threatens to sue the newspaper for spreading false information and eventually gains a huge settlement. ii) during the "Widow" arc, a policeman does a favour for Matt Murdock as his way of saying thanks for Daredevil's work in the community. Matt's response to the policeman was to say that he has him confused with someone else. iii) when stiltman comes to see him, Matt's response is the same: it's a case of mistaken identity; iv) He holds a press conference stating that he has been slandered and mistaken for someone else.
2) Matt Murdock simultaneously flaunts the fact he's Daredevil, such as: After defeating the Kingpin, he removes his mask and in front of a shocked public, declares himself to be the new Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen. That public demonstration is the so-called smoking gun: it's proof positive that Matt Murdock is
Daredevil.
3) Matt Murdock likes to walk a razor sharp fine line between points 1 & 2, such as: Deciding to take on the "Trial of the Century" case during the height of his identity crisis thereby inflaming discourse and attention on his alter-ego situation.
All in all, it's a great game of sleight of hand. Matt builds lies on top of lies; he simultaneously encourages and discourages public opinion about his alter-ego. It all builds and builds to its ultimate conclusion: The Murdock Papers. Eventually the high stakes poker game he's played, in which he's put all his loved ones at risk, starts to unravel and he is trapped within the web of his own manipulations. He ultimately either has to escape the country or go to jail.
I thought it was a great piece of storytelling, watching Matt masterfully and very coolly juggling the events in his life to meet his needs. Try as he might, though, he couldn't help it all come crashing down on him. Make no mistake, Matt ended up in his awful downfall because of his role as a player.
Logan was right.
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Hi there, and thanks for the great reply (I really mean that, even though I'm about to disagree with almost everything you said in it  )
(first of all, I should probably mention that I asked B.A. about the context of the word "player," and he apparently meant it in the romantic sense (i.e. "playboy."))
I'm afraid I'm going to have to strongly disagree with... almost everything you've said here.
I do agree that Matt is a master player (in the "chess" sense), moving pieces around to best suit his needs. This is most obvious when he was getting his revenge on the Kingpin after the Kingpin destroyed him the first time. He's a natural genius when it comes to tactics and strategy, and honestly, he can also be very manipulative at times. He is a lawyer, after all.
And the facts you've related are mostly correct. However, I had a drastically different view of the psychology behind his actions.
When Matt was first outed, his very first impulse was to come clean. Foggy had to talk him out of it!
And then, he found a way to deny being DD without actually lying. Seriously... check out the press conference speech - every single thing he says is 100% true:
- He says that the article was ill-researched. It was. It was based on hearsay, based on a rumor, based on speculation based on Kingpin's actions. Nobody in that entire chain of information actually knew anything. The fact that any of the article was correct at all was due to nothing more than sheer dumb luck! And therefore, the paper really shouldn't have printed it.
- He said that the article has turned his life upside-down, and that he never imagined that this would happen to him. Both of these things are very, very true.
- He said that the paper's allegation that he'd been faking his blindness in order to conceal his identity as Daredevil was 100% untrue. It was. He never faked his blindness to conceal his identity as Daredevil, because he never faked his blindness. He is blind.
Despite the fact that he didn't actually lie to the people, he's still really bothered by the fact that he was forced to compromise his principles. He continues to do it, though, because he really doesn't feel that he has any other choice.
The whole time, the whole mixing-up-of-his-two-worlds thing is seriously messing with his head. I mean, think about how you used to feel during parent-teacher conferences (the whole "two universes meshing" feeling), and multiply that feeling by about 6,000,000, and that's how Matt must have been feeling, every single time somebody insisted on calling him "Daredevil" when he was being Matt Murdock, or calling him "Murdock" when he was being Daredevil.
And again, he wants to be honest with the people and the authorities, because he wants them to be on the same side... but he can't, because he's a very intelligent attorney, and he's just... not that naive.
As a result, he's pulled in two different directions all the time - wanting to scream at the world that he's Daredevil and there's nothing wrong with being Daredevil, but not being able to... and as a result, his actions become very, very confused.
And then he started doing things like taking off his mask in front of all of the reporters at his front door and daring them to look up at him.
...And things like, having veiled conversations with FBI guys who come into his home, in which he tacitly admits to being Daredevil.
...And things like, having Milla call the FBI and having them arrive to find him carving into Bullseye's forehead with a shard of glass and screaming about how Bullseye is worthless and should just kill himself. Then offering to testify at Bullseye's trial, but apparently never doing so.
...And things like, walking up to the FBI surveillance van, knocking on the door, and then disappearing before they could open it.
...And things like, opening up and sharing his life, what he's been through, what he's trying to do, and why, with a room full of total strangers.
For the most part, I could understand why the FBI was after him, but it really, really irritated me that it apparently never occurred to any of them, that all of this behavior was maybe, just maybe, a sign that he needed some help!
The entire time, he was trapped in a nightmare, made all the worse by the chaos going on inside his own head. He was not playing. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find a word that describes what Matt was doing, less accurately than "playing." Nothing about his life is a game. It's the exact opposite, in fact.
Moving on to another point you made... most (not all, but most) of the time, when Matt tells people that they have him confused with somebody else... they really do have him confused with somebody else, and he's trying to tell them that. They don't understand what he really means (they think he's saying that he's not Daredevil), but what he actually means is that he's not the kind of person they think he is (a sociopath, the Kingpin of Crime, etc.) This is especially true in the case of when he said this to the Stiltman - check out the context in which he says it - Stiltman had just yelled that Matt is the new Kingpin.
He's trying to communicate something very important to them, and they're just not listening, because they're so focussed on the fact that he won't admit that he's Daredevil, that they're not paying attention to what he is telling them!
There have been times when Matt has played games. This (his behavior the entire time between being outed and being sent to jail) is not one of them. This is a time when he was still recovering from Karen's death, and then his life was turned upside-down, inside-out, and then twisted and gutted and stomped on, and all of his actions (especially the contradictory and bizarre ones) are driven by nothing less than sheer desperation.
Anyway, that's just how I feel about it. How I... very strongly... feel about it. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Katerine wrote: |
Hi there, and thanks for the great reply (I really mean that, even though I'm about to disagree with almost everything you said in it ) |
Thank you for your great reply in-kind. I greatly appreciate it when someone takes the time and effort, as you did, to write such as marvelous response to something I wrote.
| Katerine wrote: |
(first of all, I should probably mention that I asked B.A. about the context of the word "player," and he apparently meant it in the romantic sense (i.e. "playboy.")) |
You're right about that. I checked another note from B.A. in this thread that verifies what you said. (I've got issues with Matt as a player when it comes to women, too. But that's a thread for another day. Right now, I think I'm up to my eye-balls, as is, defending my stand against your well positioned counter argument.)
| Katerine wrote: |
I do agree that Matt is a master player (in the "chess" sense), moving pieces around to best suit his needs. This is most obvious when he was getting his revenge on the Kingpin after the Kingpin destroyed him the first time. He's a natural genius when it comes to tactics and strategy, and honestly, he can also be very manipulative at times. He is a lawyer, after all. |
Katerine - Well said. This is the only point you and I will be able to find mutual agreement.
| Katerine wrote: |
Despite the fact that he didn't actually lie to the people, he's still really bothered by the fact that he was forced to compromise his principles. He continues to do it, though, because he really doesn't feel that he has any other choice..
The whole time, the whole mixing-up-of-his-two-worlds thing is seriously messing with his head. I mean, think about how you used to feel during parent-teacher conferences (the whole "two universes meshing" feeling), and multiply that feeling by about 6,000,000, and that's how Matt must have been feeling, every single time somebody insisted on calling him "Daredevil" when he was being Matt Murdock, or calling him "Murdock" when he was being Daredevil.
And again, he wants to be honest with the people and the authorities, because he wants them to be on the same side... but he can't, because he's a very intelligent attorney, and he's just... not that naive.
As a result, he's pulled in two different directions all the time - wanting to scream at the world that he's Daredevil and there's nothing wrong with being Daredevil, but not being able to... and as a result, his actions become very, very confused.
The entire time, he was trapped in a nightmare, made all the worse by the chaos going on inside his own head. He was not playing. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find a word that describes what Matt was doing, less accurately than "playing." Nothing about his life is a game. It's the exact opposite, in fact.
Moving on to another point you made... most (not all, but most) of the time, when Matt tells people that they have him confused with somebody else... they really do have him confused with somebody else, and he's trying to tell them that. They don't understand what he really means (they think he's saying that he's not Daredevil), but what he actually means is that he's not the kind of person they think he is (a sociopath, the Kingpin of Crime, etc.) This is especially true in the case of when he said this to the Stiltman - check out the context in which he says it - Stiltman had just yelled that Matt is the new Kingpin.
He's trying to communicate something very important to them, and they're just not listening, because they're so focussed on the fact that he won't admit that he's Daredevil, that they're not paying attention to what he is telling them!
There have been times when Matt has played games. This (his behavior the entire time between being outed and being sent to jail) is not one of them. This is a time when he was still recovering from Karen's death, and then his life was turned upside-down, inside-out, and then twisted and gutted and stomped on, and all of his actions (especially the contradictory and bizarre ones) are driven by nothing less than sheer desperation. |
Wow. I respect your view. And you've given me pause to reflect on it. But I think we must agree to disagree. Nothing he did struck me as an act of desperation. Granted, some of the contradictory things he did, didn't always make sense to me. Like you said, I'm not in his troubled head, having to go through what he's going through. Nonetheless, to me at least, most of the things he did, including those that you highlighted, were acts of cool calculation, not desperation. He was not being re-active to his awful circumstances; he was being pro-active. As a result, in that sense, he was playing to the circumstances surrounding him by keeping his opponents off-kilter. That was the sheer genius of it all. That was the only way for him to keep his head above the water and a step ahead of his circumstances. Or at least it seemed so until it all came crashing down on him.
Btw, when I say he's a player in the context that I state, I don't mean it in a derogatory way. He's not a bad man; but, to me, he isn't a confused man either. I think calling Matt Murdock "confused", as you do, as his primary reason for doing the contradictory things he did during this entire Bendis run, doesn't give him the credit he justly deserves.
| Katerine wrote: |
Anyway, that's just how I feel about it. How I... very strongly... feel about it. |
Well, you certainly take a much more sympathetic - and perhaps even naive - view of Mr. Murdock than me.
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the issue of the "Enemy of the State" storyarc (in which, I'd like to remind on a totally unrelate note, DD defeated Wolverine and tens of hand ninjas at the same time), it must be noted that Wolverine was thinking to himself that bit about Matt being a player. I'm kinda ok with that, because, that doesn't reflect much the reality but rather how other people in the MU see Matt Murdock.
About this new dilemma. Did Murdock act like a chessplayer with the FBI, society and the underworld during his secret identity crisis? Or is that just an impression? Did he behave that way on purpose or not?
Well, I think the best answer has been given by David Mack, through the voice of Echo, facing DD during the apex of that crisis:
"...you don't even realize what kind of nutcase you are." |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The thing is... I can't believe I forgot that moment, because that was in the scene where I first fell in love with Matt. Why? Because he's trying to save a young girl... but rather than taking the expedient route of just killing the bad guy right away (the way someone like Frank would have done), he tries to give that guy every possible chance to live. |
Did he? I wouldn't be so sure. He could've redirected the bullet to his gun. To his hand. To his knee.
He redirected it to the middle of his forehead. |
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | He could've redirected the bullet to his gun. To his hand. To his knee. |
Without hitting the girl (the way it most likely would if he'd gone for the hand)? Without risking a continued firefight? Without risking the gun going off again in a totally random direction (the way it most likely would if he'd gone for the knee)?
This implies far too much confidence, for any guy who's never, ever done this before. The middle of the forehead was the only possible target that was big enough to be guaranteed to get the girl free without things going very, very wrong.
Later on, Matt had enough experience with people shooting at him that he could safely deal with it with less-than-lethal force. But here, he was just too inexperienced, and he really did need to get that girl free.
(again, all of this is assuming that I'm correctly remembering the scene, with the girl being held in front of Larks. This is a big assumption, since it's been several years...  ) |
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