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Sparko
Flying Blind
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 33
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 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:39 am Post subject: |
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You guys are putting me on right?
You're trying to pull my leg over the net?
Today isn't April first though and it wasn't when you wrote that...
Rosemary Pone?! You've gotta be kidding...
Damn... I think I even wanna laugh...
Who's in charge of quality control over these things? I dunno, maybe someone out there thinks this was a great way to tell a story. I'm going to keep trying to find a positive but damn...
On a side note, I recently read Battlin' Jack Murdock and I thought it was pretty awesome. I wasn't such a fan of Father, but Battlin' Jack was great. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Oh. My. God.
That story is too horrible and absurde for it to be made up.
I think that Bullseye committed suicide after going to Bendis and Mack and asking what "Mapone" means. The absurdity of the answer made him lose the last vestiges of his sanity. |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I hope Kuljit will make it a mission in life to interview Bendis and/or Mack and get them to make sense of this. They got paid to write this story... let them write it.  |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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I might be wrong but the impression I get from the interviews surrounding this turd is that Mack did a lot/most of the writing. A lot of the dialogue had Bendis' special "inside joke-a-thon" feeling to it but I get the sense that the plot came from Mack.
Even if it didn't, I gotta wonder why Mack was on this project at all. At what point did Mack become so (unfairly) connected to DD? In one of the interviews about End of Days either Bendis or Jansan says something about how the intention was to bring together a bunch of creators who had had a significant impact on DD. Okay, but what the heck is Mack doing in that list? It's like in the movie where there's some line about "Miller, Mack and Bendis" as though those three are important DD writers. Miller? Yes. Bendis? Yes. Mack? What? No. He wrote a handful of issues and drew another handful. There are literally dozens of creators who had a much greater impact on DD. So why does everyone keep pretending that he's an important part of the DD story?
The only thing extraordinary about the man is that he somehow made a DD story in which the worst thing wasn't that Leap Frog's son is the new DD!
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it's due to the personal/professional relationship between Mack and Bendis, Mack's current prestige in the field, and that his role is relatively recent, and generally consistent with the Miller and Bendis versions. Waid feels significantly different, and few people want to be reminded of Diggle or Gale. And before that, you'd need to go back to Kevin Smith's brief run, and then to eras pre-dating a lot of current fans. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| I think it's due to arrogance. |
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Sparko
Flying Blind
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: |
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The completionist in me wants to buy this collection as a trade paperback, but another side of me wants me to run my face into a wall a few times for even coming up with that.
I'll tell you that I didn't hate this like I hated Spider-Man: Reign, I put that up for sale as soon as I finished it and almost while reading it.
And damn, I loved Bendis' other stuff on DD (minus the Ninja tpb), so this is hard to believe. Maybe I'm in denial?
I dunno. Maybe I'll reread it one day and find something I missed... |
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Nightwing2001
Flying Blind
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I've got to agree about the Mack thing, I'm not sure where this "Mack is up there with Miller as an important part of the DD stories" came from. Hell, a nobody writer like Roger Mackenzie has a more important impact on the DD stories than David Mack ever did.
I think this has got a lot to do with the post-Marvel Knights, Vol. 2 propaganda DD that has been shoved down our throats for a long time (that we are finally starting to get away from slowly now with the new Waid run) that before guys like Smith, Mack, Quesada and Bendis came along that DD was nothing and that these guys created genius works of art on the title. I'm sorry but I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.
Last edited by Nightwing2001 on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| qtmxd wrote: | | Waid feels significantly different, and few people want to be reminded of Diggle or Gale. And before that, you'd need to go back to Kevin Smith's brief run, and then to eras pre-dating a lot of current fans. |
There was life before Volume 2. Neither Mack or Smith are in the top 10 DD writers of all time.
More and more I feel like what is "significant" is whatever gets the most hype. If you read reviews about End of Days it's mostly people lavishing it with praise and talking about how "it's the final DD tale" created by "top talent". They talk about what the project is as opposed to how it turned out. There are a few reviews that could have been written without even reading the book.
Smiths run was not groundbreaking in the slightest. It was a poor story with Smithy (i.e. poor) dialogue. It's only the hype that blinds people into thinking it was significant.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | qtmxd wrote: | | Waid feels significantly different, and few people want to be reminded of Diggle or Gale. And before that, you'd need to go back to Kevin Smith's brief run, and then to eras pre-dating a lot of current fans. |
There was life before Volume 2. Neither Mack or Smith are in the top 10 DD writers of all time.
More and more I feel like what is "significant" is whatever gets the most hype. If you read reviews about End of Days it's mostly people lavishing it with praise and talking about how "it's the final DD tale" created by "top talent". They talk about what the project is as opposed to how it turned out. There are a few reviews that could have been written without even reading the book.
Smiths run was not groundbreaking in the slightest. It was a poor story with Smithy (i.e. poor) dialogue. It's only the hype that blinds people into thinking it was significant. |
I had left Daredevil behind for many years before picking it up again. When I did, Smith was the writer, and I became hooked, but in retrospect, I probably was pulled in more by Quesada's art than Smith's writing. Say what you want about Quesada as an editor, but he's a fantastic artist. I don't count Smith among the top Daredevil writers. Not by a long shot.
I absolutely love Parts of a Hole. I still think it is the best story to come out of Volume 2. Period. It was the first thing I ever read by David Mack, and I've read all of Kabuki since. Quesada did his best art ever on Parts of a Hole, and a lot of that was due to copying Mack's style on Kabuki. Maya Lopez was a character with a ton of potential (which Bendis ended up squandering). Unfortunately Quesada, as editor, ended up delivering a lot of the issues late during the initial run.
Mack served as artist on Bendis' first Daredevil story, "Wake Up", which was a trifle. Mack returned as writer and artist for "Vision Quest," which shouldn't have been released as a Daredevil story at all.
As much as I think Mack is a genius, if you take into account only his Daredevil work, I don't think he quite makes it as one of the top Daredevil writers or artists of all time. He was on the book during a period when a lot of attention returned to Daredevil, but only for short periods here and there.
For those who haven't read it, check out Parts of a Hole, and check out the entire run of Kabuki.
One last thing, as much as some here can't stand his work, Mark Waid has made it on my list as one of the best Daredevil writers of all time. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: |
One last thing, as much as some here can't stand his work, Mark Waid has made it on my list as one of the best Daredevil writers of all time. |
Agreed. Granted we're mid-run at this point but I think Waid will go down as a significant DD writer.
Weirdly though, I bought both volumes of the Irredeemable Omnibus (basically because I'm enjoying DD so much right now) and I hated it. Maybe I've just read one too many "unique" takes on the whole superhero thing but I honestly just didn't get it at all. Which might be just a way of saying that even if people don't like Waid generally they may like his DD.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Given that Smith's run was back in 1999, I think it's safe to say it's the first one that a lot of fans remember. And while there was enough to criticize, I think it's just a fact that he revived DD. This was almost right after Flying Blind, a nadir for super-hero comics and possibly the most desperate change in a floundering character ever attempted. And I think Mack is a first rate talent, except that a lot of his artwork is dragged down by laziness... too many scribbles, too much collage. His work on DD was all first rate though, even if the Echo story wasn't DD. ANd Bendis's run was a classic for me.
As for Waid, as much as I have to grit my teeth, there's no denying he's become significant. It must be a chemical thing with me... even when he does what I think he should... make DD stronger, darker... I still can't stand it. Even if he were to bring back Natasha or Milla and revive Matt's dormant love life, I'd probably hate that too. A lot of it is the art. I like realism, evolving through Kirby and Colan. Rivera's clean mechanical look and Samnee's stylized simplicity don't work for me. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| qtmxd wrote: | | And I think Mack is a first rate talent, except that a lot of his artwork is dragged down by laziness... too many scribbles, too much collage. His work on DD was all first rate though, even if the Echo story wasn't DD. |
One of the reasons why I think Mack is a genius is the way the text meshes with the images. I hadn't seen anything like that before. It's not just text, and it's not just artwork. It's an entirely new experience. But I think his best work was Kabuki. |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| At their best, Mack and Sienkiewicz both use that style of merging different looks within one image, and integrating text as well. I only looked at Kabuki, never bought it. It alternated great work with a lot of pages that were almost blank. It's what I mean by his tendency to laziness. Sienkewiecz's masterpiece was Stray Toasters... the highest level of that type of art, museum quality stuff. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| qtmxd wrote: | | This was almost right after Flying Blind, a nadir for super-hero comics and possibly the most desperate change in a floundering character ever attempted. |
I'm pretty sure you're a bit off here. As outlined in his interview on this very site Lobdell was brought in as a stop gap while Marvel waited for Smith to deliver Guardian Devil. The relaunch was well into development by the time Flying Blind hit.
http://www.manwithoutfear.com/daredevil-interviews/Lobdell
So Smith coming on the book wasn't a response to Lobdell's poor story or anything. Quite the opposite actually, it seems that Marvel was just killing time and filling space before the relaunch. With the relaunch coming Lobdell tried an off the wall story (that fell a little flat).
Prior to Flying Blind DD wasn't "floundering". There was a bit of a dip after Kessel but DD as a comic is basically defined by it's dips. For every Nocenti there is a Playing to the Camera. For every Bendis, a Diggle.
The idea that Smith saved DD is just industry hype.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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