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| Do you want Karen to return (e.g. never have been killed)? |
| Yes, but only if there is a very tight story behind it. |
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20% |
[ 6 ] |
| Yes, and I don't care how! :P |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
| No, because there is no need to bring her back. |
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53% |
[ 16 ] |
| No, only because it could not be pulled off well. |
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20% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | As for everyone else who's all "dead is dead": I can't find the quote now but there's some famous interview where Frank Miller says something to the effect of "continuity is for the weak and unimaginative". |
Well, maybe he said that in your cloud cuckoo land or whatever. I don't claim to have any definitive list or whatever, but I do have tons of Miller interviews to hand, and he's said no such thing as far as I can remember. I could be wrong. but then, you have been known to make things up and/or lie during an exchange before. So who knows.
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He did say it. I've never lied or made stuff up on this board. Act your age.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | He did say it. |
Where and when.
| Quote: | | I've never lied or made stuff up on this board. Act your age. |
Look, you're lying right now. I'm sure half the stuff that's made up our previous exchanges has made this boards Hall Of Fame or whatever. It's there for all to see. It ain't going anywhere.
So get back to us with the source of the Miller 'quote'. And if you can't, (and you're just trying to get one of the most well respected comic book creators ever to 'back up' your point of view, by misquoting him and having a go at the majority of people who've voted differently to yourself on a frickin' poll  ) well, you really should start acting your age. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | In any case, rgj's nostrils flare. Steam comes out of his ears. |
You S.O.B.!!! That's it, I'm turning off my web cam!
rgj |
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Kuljit Mithra
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1530
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Quote: |
| james castle wrote: | | As for everyone else who's all "dead is dead": I can't find the quote now but there's some famous interview where Frank Miller says something to the effect of "continuity is for the weak and unimaginative". |
Well, maybe he said that in your cloud cuckoo land or whatever. I don't claim to have any definitive list or whatever, but I do have tons of Miller interviews to hand, and he's said no such thing as far as I can remember. I could be wrong. but then, you have been known to make things up and/or lie during an exchange before. So who knows.
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He did say it. I've never lied or made stuff up on this board. Act your age. |
http://www.comicdom.gr/interviews_archive.php?id=17&lang=en
COMICDOM: Essentially, what is your take on continuity?
FRANK MILLER: Continuity is the hobgoblin of small minds.
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Kuljit Mithra
www.manwithoutfear.com |
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fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I've done some thinking on this before I posted my reply to this topic.
Truth be told, I did not vote on this one. I withheld my urge to vote "no, there's no need to bring her back" and to tack on my mantra "what's done is done". But, for better or worse. I didn't.
The further truth is, I don't know. THis is a very layered topic.
Firstly, let us not forget, a Matt Murdock-love interest had, indeed, been brought back from the dead. And the execution of this "gimmick" is questionable. This new "Elektra Nachios" is, in a number of people's minds, not the Elektra of the past, no matter how hard people try. It simply has not worked.
Also, you can say what you want about Kevin Smith. It is no mystery he has pissed a few people off (myself included), but he did do his Daredevil research and he covered all his bases (I'll explain in a moment).
A Karen Page return isn't something to be handled lightly. It can be a very difficult high wire act to execute. I believe her return, if it is to be done, should be built over a span of time, issues and arcs. She can't simply appear at the door.
If you examine it, there is so much stacked against an average writer pulling this off.
As I stated, Kevin Smith covered his bases. Not only did we see Karen get struck down and not only did we, as readers, attend Karen's funeral (where half the Marvel Universe also attended, a singular detail that may be difficult to write around), there is also the detail of Karen's Will & Testiment, where Matt inherited money linked to Karen's life insurance (which was used to revive Nelson & Murdock).
Still, the "Guardian Devil" arc was driven by Matt's paranoia and fears, amplified by the toxins that coursed through him. So, a lot of this was only going on in Matt's mind. Mysterio was a hack actor, but an actor nonetheless, who's to say that he wouldn't have contacted another actress to play the role of Karen in this play? Given the drugs, it could have been an animal cracker with a voice transmitter and Matt would still believe it was Karen, due to the forceful nature of his fears driving him during that point in time (forget the rubbish of clones and the like).
Still, I don't know.
This story would be difficult to properly situate. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Quote: |
| james castle wrote: | | As for everyone else who's all "dead is dead": I can't find the quote now but there's some famous interview where Frank Miller says something to the effect of "continuity is for the weak and unimaginative". |
Well, maybe he said that in your cloud cuckoo land or whatever. I don't claim to have any definitive list or whatever, but I do have tons of Miller interviews to hand, and he's said no such thing as far as I can remember. I could be wrong. but then, you have been known to make things up and/or lie during an exchange before. So who knows.
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He did say it. I've never lied or made stuff up on this board. Act your age. |
In fact, but what Miller says is not automatically gospel.
Creating an improbable plot twist just because someone didn't like Karen's demise would still suck, no matter what Miller did say.
Edited:
But maybe I shouldn't say "it would suck", because it doesn't convey the idea. I'd better say that "it would be disappointing".
You see, it's not that I think that Karen's eventual return will _surely_ be a badly written story. In fact, it could also be a perfectly written story, and it would be disappointing anyway.
What would be disappointing is that an important, miliar character such as Karen would be treated superficially, like an ordinary supporting character. A character who can be killed and then resurrected as if it was nothing. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Creating an improbable plot twist just because someone didn't like Karen's demise would still suck, no matter what Miller did say. |
Wait a minute! Hold the phone! Who said anything about "creating an improbable plot twist" (bringing someone back from the "dead" in comics . . .  ) ONLY because "someone DIDN'T LIKE Karen's demise." If a writer, like Bru, is going to bring back Karen, it's not cause he didn't like Guardian Devil. He'll do it because it's a story he wants to tell. Are you saying the writer that brought back Nuke thought Born Again sucked? Just because some of us say that we wouldn't view a Karen-return as some sort of comic book transgression because we think GD, in the end, wasn't worthy of her death, doesn't mean we think a comic writer intends to bring her back because of that reason. A writer has his own reasons and stories to tell.
Oh, and someone here compared bringing back Karen to bringing back Uncle Ben. That's a false comparisson. Bringing back Karen would be like bringing back Aunt May (geez, I had no idea she "died"). Characters that have been with the hero since the beginning and have had stories told 40 plus years (until some modern writer thinks it's cool to kill them off, then the editors rethink it). No, my friend, bringing back Uncle Ben is like bringing back Jack Murdock, characters that died at the begining of our hero's life (issue #1) and shaped who they are. So, the comparisson of bringing back Karen to Uncle Ben is absurd.
rgj |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| fox_limbo wrote: | | Given the drugs, it could have been an animal cracker with a voice transmitter and Matt would still believe it was Karen, due to the forceful nature of his fears driving him during that point in time (forget the rubbish of clones and the like). |
Skipping record alert.
In Daredevil Volume 2, number 5, Doctor Strange removed the toxins from Daredevil's bloodstream, and his mind immediately cleared up. He then went to the Church where Bullseye had already killed a bunch of nuns. He proceeded to get beat up by Bullseye, when Karen intervened and got herself killed. Daredevil was not under the influence of drugs when that happened. Because of this I believe that it had to be Karen. It couldn't have been anyone else because, with his hypersenses, he would have caught onto it pretty quick. |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | What would be disappointing is that an important, miliar character such as Karen would be treated superficially, like an ordinary supporting character. A character who can be killed and then resurrected as if it was nothing. |
As opposed to just killing her as if it was nothing?
rgj
Last edited by rgj on Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | In Daredevil Volume 2, number 5, Doctor Strange removed the toxins from Daredevil's bloodstream, and his mind immediately cleared up. He then went to the Church where Bullseye had already killed a bunch of nuns. He proceeded to get beat up by Bullseye, when Karen intervened and got herself killed. Daredevil was not under the influence of drugs when that happened. Because of this I believe that it had to be Karen. It couldn't have been anyone else because, with his hypersenses, he would have caught onto it pretty quick. |
Ah, but what you don't know is that Mysterio had intorduced the toxin into the Church. The toxins returned and later cleared up. Or heck, maybe there are still traces of the toxin, causing Matt to do stuff like declaring himself King Of Hell's Kitchen and getting married and stuff.
Look, any good writer can write circles around "what happened." So, c'mon, let's not act as if Smith wrote an unalterable story (no comic writer can do that).
rgj |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | He did say it. |
Where and when.
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Hurrah! KM to the rescue! On one hand I think it'd've been a cooler if I had found the link myself. On the other hand, KM rocks. Pwned.
| Pete wrote: |
| Quote: | | I've never lied or made stuff up on this board. Act your age. |
Look, you're lying right now. I'm sure half the stuff that's made up our previous exchanges has made this boards Hall Of Fame or whatever. It's there for all to see. It ain't going anywhere.
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Just for fun, why don't you back up your claim: let's have an example of when and where I lied. If it is, indeed, all there to see and "ain't going anywhere" then you should have no problem finding something to back you up. I'll be waiting.
| Pete wrote: |
So get back to us with the source of the Miller 'quote'. And if you can't, (and you're just trying to get one of the most well respected comic book creators ever to 'back up' your point of view, by misquoting him and having a go at the majority of people who've voted differently to yourself on a frickin' poll ) well, you really should start acting your age. |
Okay, so KM found the quote. Hurrah. So it looks like I'm not "just trying to get one of the most well respected comic book creators ever to 'back up' [my] point of view". Hmmm, actually, since the quote is real it looks like one of the most well respected comic book creators ever, actually, really does back up my point. Hmmm. Since Frank Miller agrees with me and you disagree with me...wait, does that mean Miller would disagree with you? I think it does.
To tell you the truth though, I'm not even sure why you would have questioned the existence of the quote in the first place. You're the one who claims to have read most (but not all) Miller interviews. Plus, I assume you've read at least a couple Miller pieces. How is it possible that you could read Miller and not know with 100% certainty that he didn't care about continuity? Did his DD retcon slip past you? Or maybe you just assumed that Dark Knight and DK2 were part of continuity. Or maybe the whole Elektra Lives Again thing just sort of ghosted past without striking your fancy. I mean, those are just some of his most famous works. No wonder you missed them (and the thinking behind them). I guess that's the difference between reading and understanding.
Okay, that's enough Pete bashing (although I feel that, having been vindicated after being directly called a liar, I have to gloat just a bit) for one day. What's more important is the broader point which is: if Frank Miller (who I assume most of us worship) doesn't give two figs about continuity why does everyone else?
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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You need to question the sanity of the man you want to have back you up jc. You might have Miller in your corner, but maybe he is not all there. 
C.
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Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Clayton Blind Love wrote: | You need to question the sanity of the man you want to have back you up jc. You might have Miller in your corner, but maybe he is not all there.
C. |
Yeah but who is?
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | Creating an improbable plot twist just because someone didn't like Karen's demise would still suck, no matter what Miller did say. |
Wait a minute! Hold the phone! Who said anything about "creating an improbable plot twist" (bringing someone back from the "dead" in comics . . . ) ONLY because "someone DIDN'T LIKE Karen's demise." If a writer, like Bru, is going to bring back Karen, it's not cause he didn't like Guardian Devil. He'll do it because it's a story he wants to tell. |
I doubt that Bru brought back Bucky because he hates old school Cap. In fact, his Winter Soldier work is more of a tribute to old Cap.
Readers can greatly benefit when old stories are revisited and built upon, rather than a strictly linear series of six issue arcs. Look at how the DD/Deadpool annual tied in Miller's Man Without Fear mini, Nocenti's Typhoid Mary, and even DeMatteis's terrible, terrible, Matt-is-a-killer arc, years after the fact.
If done right, going back to to important stories is adding new layers within an existing framework, not blowing up the building and starting over.
| rgj wrote: | Oh, and someone here compared bringing back Karen to bringing back Uncle Ben. That's a false comparisson. Bringing back Karen would be like bringing back Aunt May (geez, I had no idea she "died").[. . . ]
No, my friend, bringing back Uncle Ben is like bringing back Jack Murdock, characters that died at the begining of our hero's life (issue #1) and shaped who they are. So, the comparisson of bringing back Karen to Uncle Ben is absurd.
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Exactly! As I have said, I haven't been able to find anyone who feels that the Spidey titles are worse for bringing Aunt May back, even if they didn't like the actual story which brought her back.
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"Flash is back. Worlds will die again!" |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | In Daredevil Volume 2, number 5, Doctor Strange removed the toxins from Daredevil's bloodstream, and his mind immediately cleared up. He then went to the Church where Bullseye had already killed a bunch of nuns. He proceeded to get beat up by Bullseye, when Karen intervened and got herself killed. Daredevil was not under the influence of drugs when that happened. Because of this I believe that it had to be Karen. It couldn't have been anyone else because, with his hypersenses, he would have caught onto it pretty quick. |
In issue 7, Dr. Strange is attending Karen's funeral. In issue 65, he was not even aware that Karen had died.
We can either write off one of the occurrances was a glitch in the matrix, or this can be part of a bigger story. Dr. Strange might have been tampered with, or the Dr. Strange in Guardian Devil may have not even been Dr. Strange. Considering everything else Mysterio staged, this could have been very possible.
Or, the Dr. Strange in Guardian Devil may have been a third party. Mysterio's plan was not entirely secret, as Kingpin knew about it ahead of time. At this point, Matt's current tormentor could have carefully played the part of switching out Mysterio's drug in Matt system for some other drug/magic entirely to disurpt his senses. The 3rd party had a fake Karen killed (e.g. a look alike, albeit real person, also drugged), and was behind the scenes in Matt's long vol 2 downward spiral.
This could fill in any number of holes, including why Elektra thought she was gathering the "Murdock Papers," after Born Again, Urich's fairly spineless nature in the Murdock Papers, etc.
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